Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[mxp]

Count me in an a happy customer! Might just go out and buy a second Leaf.

Amazing to me to see the naysayers. Truly amazing.

Anyone who knows anything about EVs (even people who know very very little) know that the battery is expensive and it degrades. Having a reasonable price to plan for that is what Nissan needed to do. The motor and other parts will always be available at a junk yard when the battery is much more questionable. The fact is the life on the other components is on average so long, that junk yard purchases will be a very good gamble.
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Yes, I raise my hand as a naysayer. On the onset, it looks like a "deal" but in fact it's not. Looks at the trends, do the math and consider the other alternatives. You will soon begin to see it.

Nissan had a obvious gap in their product strategy and that they absolutely needed to communicate a battery replacement plan. Yes, they did that- thank you. But, in my opinion, it's a bad deal.

Just for grins:

*Today*: you can buy with a 2014 MiEV (16kWh batt) sts feats: heated seats, CHAdeMO DC quick charge port, battery warning system, heated mirrors, rear door speakers, a leather-covered wheel and shift knob, daytime running lights, front fog lamps, 8A/12A switchable Level 1 charging cable is also standard, charge port lamp guide, plus other trim upgrades = $23k (sticker) - $10k (California) == *$13k drive-away*

In California, upgrading my 2011 Leaf will cost me $7k (inc install/taxes). If I put up an extra $6k, I get a new vehicle with the new vehicle warranty. If you have a 2011 model with the badly designed heater, and for some no QC port, why- tell me why would you spend $7k on a battery in an old car?

*Future*: I am just trying to imagine how low the price will go down to for a 2018 MiEV (upgraded battery maybe ~24kWh like a Leaf), upgraded interior, maybe even a Google Android Auto display. And, they might just alter the sheet metal to make the car look prettier.

Pricing any product is a tricky endeavor, and in my opinion, the Nissan product management team did it cleverly. The consumer is led to "believe" it's a reasonable price point for certain arguments, and the product management team now have a highly profitable product offering to re-coup their $300M investment from their battery factory. The process is so simple for them. Customer puts in an order at the dealer, factory ships out the product on a pallet, dealer makes money on the installation. The process is so simple.

Well, in any case, at least there is an official replacement program in place now.

 

[mxp]

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BTW have you noticed how the comments have changed from "I want to know the price of a new battery" to "Well, I'm gonna wait until xyz". Not many saying "great, where do I sign up"? Fancy that Who'd a thunk it?

Yep, I agree.

Just wondering what the effects potentially are, to the re-sale value of existing 2011/2012 Leafs? This is currently my biggest concern.

If I was thinking like a product planner, the pricing strategy thinking for this battery program would also include a planning assumption that a 2011/2012 product value is zero. Haha! ;-)

The reason is: It becomes a very viable product offer, assuming the 2011/2012 asset is written off, and commercial companies paying $6k for an upgrade can still use or re-purpose them within a commercial fleet.

I can just see my 2011/2012 Leaf further reduce in value. :-( I am really hoping somebody can help tell me that I am wrong!

 

[evchels]

First, regarding the "in an effort to" language on the lizard battery...

This message wasn't specifically about that battery, but given the ongoing questions about if/when the hot battery was being used both in new cars and in this program, the LAB asked Nissan to clarify as part of this announcement. That's all this really was, a response to that request.

And, we have all gotten on Nissan about being more careful about over-promising and guarantees in its messaging. We have implored Nissan to be more transparent. In most related threads including this one, folks have been clear about their "won't believe it til I see it" sentiment. So particularly given the history on this topic, I think describing what they're doing (new chemistry) and why (in an effort to increase heat tolerance) is a more credible approach to this group than a statement that might come off as overconfident or unfounded. Data is an understandable request going forward though.

Same here... the feeling is fuzzy, but honestly; it's a bad deal from Nissan.

This is unfair.

Nissan has always questioned how many people would really want to buy a battery pack, or whether it would make sense at today's costs. That's largely why they've been averse to giving a price, particularly at the potential expense of new drivers who would be scared off by nearly any number. But we've insisted this was critically important information to have for ownership planning purposes- which is an inherently psychological process. So Nissan delivered, and with a far more aggressive price than they might have, given everything I've ever heard about their actual costs. As expected, few people plan to buy a pack anytime soon, but the information is reassuring and helps decision making. For many, it may never make sense to buy a new pack for a used car- and many are unlikely to need one in a typical ownership period. Those that do, now have that option. But Nissan is not to blame because most of the "benefit" to current owners is psychological. We asked for realistic information, and that's what we've been handed.

It's also a starting point. If the technology progresses as anticipated, durability will increase, and fewer people will be worrying about needing to buy a new battery pack. Costs will decrease, so that those who do should have cheaper options. But in the meantime, Nissan has set a good price/kWh precedent for the industry- and in the process, has done a service to the larger movement.

Nissan has deserved much of the criticism it's gotten on this topic to date. But it also deserves a ton of credit on this.

 

[mxp]

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Same here... the feeling is fuzzy, but honestly; it's a bad deal from Nissan.

This is unfair.

Nissan has always questioned how many people would really want to buy a battery pack, or whether it would make sense at today's costs. That's largely why they've been averse to giving a price, particularly at the potential expense of new drivers who would be scared off by nearly any number. But we've insisted this was critically important information to have for ownership planning purposes- which is an inherently psychological process. So Nissan delivered, and with a far more aggressive price than they might have, given everything I've ever heard about their actual costs.

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Costs will decrease, so that those who do should have cheaper options. But in the meantime, Nissan has set a good price/kWh precedent for the industry- and in the process, has done a service to the larger movement.

Nissan has deserved much of the criticism it's gotten on this topic to date. But it also deserves a ton of credit on this.

hi evchels, thanks for your reply! boy, you've been quiet on the forum for a period of time circa 2012 ?

Just for the record: we are a household of 2 Leafs - VIN numbers in the 4xxx.

Just to be clear: We applaud Nissan and your team for implementing and sharing with us the replacement program. It took a while, but at least it's now out in the open. Everything that I have written around this topic so far, is my dissatisfaction with the price point *forward looking* 3-4 years from today.

Lastly: It's not clear to me what your last statement above "Costs will decrease.... etc" ultimately mean for the customer. Here is my question to Nissan: In 4 years time, will Nissan reduce the pricing of the battery replacement program relative to market conditions, manufacture cost, scale and everything else in play?

Nissan has a real oppty here to maintain the Leaf product as a true legacy claiming the 1st viable mass-manufactured EV product to go to market- and achieving great success- what >100k units on the road today? No other manufacturer can make this claim. True EV enthusiasts will try to continue and keep their Gen 1 Leafs forever. Making your battery program costly and unattainable to average folks will hurt your critical mass visibility (more Nissan branded Leafs on the road == potential demand for your newer products) and increased credibility.

Nissan product management will have to decide if they want to lose that legacy or not. Making a battery program affordable will keep most of your 100k units on the road, helping to maintain that marketing visibility. People are noticing Leafs on the road. Nobody talks about MiEVs, FFEs, or Fiat 500es.

Really, it's all just my opinion....

One more thing:
Sorry that it is unrelated- Nissan had a chance to beat Tesla with their super charging network strategy. Nissan had MORE point-of-presence in terms of leveraging the dealership network to install Chademos everywhere from the get-go when the Leaf hit the market. While I see this slowly starting to ramping up, the Tesla folks- while late in the game now have more visibility in that area.

Last weekend, I had to rent a car to take my family to the Monterey Bay Aquarium. It's so sad. If there was a Chademo at Nissan Gilroy, and one at a Nissan dealership close to Monterey, we would have attempted the trip down.

 

[Volusiano]

Of course there are other things to factor in if you are really serious about considering it. Registration costs can be a HUGE factor if you are continually leasing. Every 2-3 years writing a large check to the DMV because it is a new vehicle.

This is not a problem in AZ at all. Registration cost for the LEAF is insanely low. I remember it cost me about $25 to register my brand new 2011 LEAF. Then the following year, it cost me about $50 to renew my LEAF registration for the next 5 years.

 

[smkettner]

Now that Nissan is saying the 2015 will have the Lizard battery, nobody is going to want to buy a brand new 2014 anymore.

If the 2014 gets a new lizard battery at 48 months under warranty and the 2015 lizard lasts 65 months....... no warranty.
The unknown will be how much better is the lizard going to turn out to be.

 

[JPWhite]

While I'm generally happy with the announcement I do think that to make things square early adopters should have gotten a special discounted 1-time replacement pricing on the pack as the battery didn't perform as promised by Nissan by a large margin for the majority of the people.

Maybe we did get a special deal and they just aren't saying. Hence my question about notice of price changes. The price could go up if Nissan are doing us a favor in the short term to keep us on the road. OTOH it may go down if this price is fair to both parties and their costs per unit go down as they ramp up volume.

 

[myleaf]

First, regarding the "in an effort to" language on the lizard battery...

And, we have all gotten on Nissan about being more careful about over-promising and guarantees in its messaging. We have implored Nissan to be more transparent. In most related threads including this one, folks have been clear about their "won't believe it til I see it" sentiment. So particularly given the history on this topic, I think describing what they're doing (new chemistry) and why (in an effort to increase heat tolerance) is a more credible approach to this group than a statement that might come off as overconfident or unfounded. Data is an understandable request going forward though.
Nissan has deserved much of the criticism it's gotten on this topic to date. But it also deserves a ton of credit on this.

I am very pleased with Nissan's announcement regarding the availability to purchase a replacement battery and the replacement cost.

But regarding the new chemistry (in an effort to increase heat tolerance), My expectation is that the new chemistry should meet the battery capacity degradation rate announced during the initial marketing of the 2011 LEAF. If Nissan has data suggesting otherwise, they should disclose this soon.

 

[GRA]

First, regarding the "in an effort to" language on the lizard battery...

This message wasn't specifically about that battery, but given the ongoing questions about if/when the hot battery was being used both in new cars and in this program, the LAB asked Nissan to clarify as part of this announcement. That's all this really was, a response to that request.

And, we have all gotten on Nissan about being more careful about over-promising and guarantees in its messaging. We have implored Nissan to be more transparent. In most related threads including this one, folks have been clear about their "won't believe it til I see it" sentiment. So particularly given the history on this topic, I think describing what they're doing (new chemistry) and why (in an effort to increase heat tolerance) is a more credible approach to this group than a statement that might come off as overconfident or unfounded. Data is an understandable request going forward though.

Same here... the feeling is fuzzy, but honestly; it's a bad deal from Nissan.

This is unfair.

Nissan has always questioned how many people would really want to buy a battery pack, or whether it would make sense at today's costs. That's largely why they've been averse to giving a price, particularly at the potential expense of new drivers who would be scared off by nearly any number. But we've insisted this was critically important information to have for ownership planning purposes- which is an inherently psychological process. So Nissan delivered, and with a far more aggressive price than they might have, given everything I've ever heard about their actual costs. As expected, few people plan to buy a pack anytime soon, but the information is reassuring and helps decision making. For many, it may never make sense to buy a new pack for a used car- and many are unlikely to need one in a typical ownership period. Those that do, now have that option. But Nissan is not to blame because most of the "benefit" to current owners is psychological. We asked for realistic information, and that's what we've been handed.

It's also a starting point. If the technology progresses as anticipated, durability will increase, and fewer people will be worrying about needing to buy a new battery pack. Costs will decrease, so that those who do should have cheaper options. But in the meantime, Nissan has set a good price/kWh precedent for the industry- and in the process, has done a service to the larger movement.

Nissan has deserved much of the criticism it's gotten on this topic to date. But it also deserves a ton of credit on this.

Chelsea, agreed that they finally did the right thing, but it took far too long and required far too much effort by their customers to get here. The more important point is the one you allude to above; while relatively few people are likely to buy a new battery, knowing that one's available and how much it costs is crucial for decision-making, especially for those who buy and keep their cars for a long time. It also makes it far easier to compare the value of a LEAF to a B-Class and i3, as their extra cost can now be calculated against the extra 3 years/40k miles (IIRR 5 yrs/90k miles for the i3 in CA) their battery warranties provide. I expect this is ONE reason Nissan would have preferred not to provide a battery price.

Nissan's now halfway to re-establishing some credibility and a modicum of trust (Lizard life aside; Nissan needs to step up with some data, and/or improve their warranty) with their most engaged customers. Now they just need to take the last step, and get rid of B0133. Otherwise it will drag on just like this has, with lawsuits and continuing bad PR. They need to get it over with, and all it will take is for them to do the right thing now, rather than a year or two from now.

 

[evchels]

Maybe we did get a special deal and they just aren't saying. Hence my question about notice of price changes. The price could go up if Nissan are doing us a favor in the short term to keep us on the road. OTOH it may go down if this price is fair to both parties and their costs per unit go down as they ramp up volume.

The LAB will continue to impress upon Nissan the importance of notice- both for potential price changes, but also in the event of product changes. To be clear, there has been zero discussion about future changes coming to this program. But recognizing the possibility, we'll keep on that point.

Everything that I have written around this topic so far, is my dissatisfaction with the price point *forward looking* 3-4 years from today.

Lastly: It's not clear to me what your last statement above "Costs will decrease.... etc" ultimately mean for the customer. Here is my question to Nissan: In 4 years time, will Nissan reduce the pricing of the battery replacement program relative to market conditions, manufacture cost, scale and everything else in play?

I don't think anyone- including Nissan-knows for sure what will happen with pricing for this program in four years. I would expect prices to decrease as costs do for both cars and parts, though yes, that remains to be proven (and must be balanced with reaching/sustaining profitability). But any company that does not, to some degree, pass along cost decreases to the customer won't remain competitive. In the meantime, it seems unfair to me to use today's battery prices to assume a bad deal four years from now, and condemn the announcement at the outset.

Nissan had a chance to beat Tesla with their super charging network strategy. Nissan had MORE point-of-presence in terms of leveraging the dealership network to install Chademos everywhere from the get-go when the Leaf hit the market. While I see this slowly starting to ramping up, the Tesla folks- while late in the game now have more visibility in that area.

Tesla tends to have more visibility than anyone else on most things. But I hear you; Tesla created fantastic visibility and great PR/marketing value from a relatively small number of chargers, and continues to grow both. And for any EV brand, dealers should be a go-to place for reliable, preferably free/cheap charging at launch. I'm glad Nissan stepped in when it was clear some of the other charging providers' announcements weren't happening, but there is plenty yet to be done- and yes, opportunity lost.

Nissan's now halfway to re-establishing some credibility and a modicum of trust (Lizard life aside; Nissan needs to step up with some data, and/or improve their warranty) with their most engaged customers. Now they just need to take the last step, and get rid of B0133. Otherwise it will drag on just like this has, with lawsuits and continuing bad PR. They need to get it over with, and all it will take is for them to do the right thing now, rather than a year or two from now.

Totally agree. On the time and effort required to get here, too.

 

[fotajoye]

First, regarding the "in an effort to" language on the lizard battery....
Nissan has deserved much of the criticism it's gotten on this topic to date. But it also deserves a ton of credit on this.

Thanks for your efforts with Nissan and your attempts to educating people on EVs. You try hard.
I have been critical of Nissan's battery policies; however, I'm aboard now that they finally have a battery replacement program. I like the fact of installing a 2015 battery in all older Leafs.

What I see on some posts is disappointment of how expensive Lithium batteries are; many don't realize that the cost of the Nissan pack is about 1/2 the cost should they decide to build a pack of the same capacity for a DIY conversion EV.

I also read complaints about low resale prices. My 2011 SV, including incentives, worked out less than $20,000. $14-$17,000 as a used car would seem about right; however, the costs don't pencil out well, if a Leaf needs a battery. So, it becomes a waiting game of short range driving and charging until batteries either "pass the bar," or become more affordable and range upgraded.

 

[RegGuheert]

What I see on some posts is disappointment of how expensive Lithium batteries are; many don't realize that the cost of the Nissan pack is about 1/2 the cost should they decide to build a pack of the same capacity for a DIY conversion EV.

+1

When I purchased the LEAF, I figured that the battery cost Nissan roughly 50% of what I paid for the entire car. Now to learn that I can purchase a replacement for one-third of that amount is quite a big deal to me! In fact, the price that Nissan has just announced for LEAF replacement batteries is pretty close to the price that Honda charged for the traction battery in the Honda Civic Hybrid back in 2002 (IIRC).

 

[evnow]

Yes, I raise my hand as a naysayer. On the onset, it looks like a "deal" but in fact it's not. Looks at the trends, do the math and consider the other alternatives. You will soon begin to see it.

...

*Today*: you can buy with a 2014 MiEV (16kWh batt) sts feats: heated seats, CHAdeMO DC quick charge port, battery warning system, heated mirrors, rear door speakers, a leather-covered wheel and shift knob, daytime running lights, front fog lamps, 8A/12A switchable Level 1 charging cable is also standard, charge port lamp guide, plus other trim upgrades = $23k (sticker) - $10k (California) == *$13k drive-away*

So, according to you this is a bad deal because Mitsu I costs less ? LOL.

How can you compare a sub-compact to Leaf ? A new Mitsu I will have less utility than an old Leaf with a new battery.

People are happy with this announcement because the price is less than expected - and some people thought Nissan won't even sell the battery.

The whole idea of "needing' Nissan to sell the battery was emotional. It wasn't a rational thing to begin with - that is why you saw charged language and so many upset early adopters. For them the buy decision itself was emotional - not a rational decision. A rational decision would have been to lease - given all the uncertainties. The announcement satisfies that emotional need.

Also, now with the price announced, people can make a rational decision on whether to buy or lease or buy at the end of lease etc.

I expect very few to buy packs and keep the '11 Leaf going for 10 or more years. But, the announcement makes that possible.

 

[Stanton]

Looks like I'll be able to enjoy my Leaf for years to come; getting a "free" warranty replacement battery is a bonus! This justifies my reasoning to BUY my first EV from an ESTABLISHED car manufacturer.

 

[evnow]

What I see on some posts is disappointment of how expensive Lithium batteries are; many don't realize that the cost of the Nissan pack is about 1/2 the cost should they decide to build a pack of the same capacity for a DIY conversion EV.

The conventional wisdom is that batteries cost $500/kWh. that would have made the replacement battery cost some $12k. Reduce that by salvage value - say $3k - and we are still looking at close to $10k.

That makes $5.5k a big deal - not just a deal.

 

[johnrhansen]

My guess is they are either losing money or making very little on these replacement batteries. If they were making lots of money, they'd be selling the battery to anyone who wants one. Without a core charge. They can afford to sell at this price because they know it will put people's minds at ease, drive up the used car prices, so the leases would cost less, and build up the market for new cars, without actually needing to sell many replacement batteries, as its not going to be needed in most areas. Win win for them

 

[cwerdna]

Wake up people!! Its really a bad deal.

Have you looked into typical prices per kWh for automotive grade li-ion batteries? Keep in mind the Leaf's is a 24 kWh battery.

My guess is they are either losing money or making very little on these replacement batteries. If they were making lots of money, they'd be selling the battery to anyone who wants one. Without a core charge.

+1

What I see on some posts is disappointment of how expensive Lithium batteries are; many don't realize that the cost of the Nissan pack is about 1/2 the cost should they decide to build a pack of the same capacity for a DIY conversion EV.

The conventional wisdom is that batteries cost $500/kWh. that would have made the replacement battery cost some $12k. Reduce that by salvage value - say $3k - and we are still looking at close to $10k.

That makes $5.5k a big deal - not just a deal.

I haven't kept close track of current industry prices per kWh, but at $230/kWh (if you count the $1000 core credit), sounds pretty darn good. http://green.autoblog.com/2014/06/27/nissan-leaf-replacement-battery-costs-5500/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has links to http://green.autoblog.com/2012/04/06/lithium-ion-battery-costs-will-still-be-about-400-kwh-by-2020/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://green.autoblog.com/2012/06/21/battery-costs-will-fall-to-250-kilowatt-hour-by-2015/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[mwalsh]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Nissan is subsidizing the price (heavily) at $5500. Now I don't think anyone expected a bunch of people to be interested in ordering one immediately, or even in the near future (since many of us are still covered by the factory capacity warranty). In fact, they may have hedged their bets on the fact that they wouldn't have to sell one for a while. But what this does is remove a whole bunch of uncertainty for current owners and potential owners about whether they should consider a long-term relationship with the LEAF. One that extends beyond the capacity warranty.

I think it's a terrific move, and one Nissan should be lauded for. But we should also give ourselves a little pat of the back, because this wouldn't have happened without all the badgering for the last 2 years. And we should thank the Advisory Group for continuing to advocate on our behalf directly with the Decision Makers.

 

[UBUYGAS]

This is really Great News!! only $5500?!!!!, I've saved $2500 in 15 months by not buying Gas!!!


+1

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Nissan is subsidizing the price (heavily) at $5500. Now I don't think anyone expected a bunch of people to be interested in ordering one immediately, or even in the near future (since many of us are still covered by the factory capacity warranty). In fact, they may have hedged their bets on the fact that they wouldn't have to sell one for a while. But what this does is remove a whole bunch of uncertainty for current owners and potential owners about whether they should consider a long-term relationship with the LEAF. One that extends beyond the capacity warranty.

I think it's a terrific move, and one Nissan should be lauded for. But we should also give ourselves a little pat of the back, because this wouldn't have happened without all the badgering for the last 2 years. And we should thank the Advisory Group for continuing to advocate on our behalf directly with the Decision Makers.

 

[bbrowncods]

Looks like I'll be able to enjoy my Leaf for years to come; getting a "free" warranty replacement battery is a bonus! This justifies my reasoning to BUY my first EV from an ESTABLISHED car manufacturer.

That is exactly why I purchased from Nissan; In my opinion the only major car maker in the US that is committed to the technology. The fact that I have a 100K warranty is all I needed. Now that I know that the Leaf is not a throw away vehicle, means that there will be residual value in it whenever I sell.