The REAL Charging Cost per SDG&E and "Equivalent ICE mpg"

[ttweed]

Because the second "subtractive" meter has easily access feed lines, would it make sense to install a big "BYPASS" switch for that meter?

That is, when rates are not favorable, flip the big knife switch and power the same Blink EVSE from the house meter directly, and accrue zero kWh on the secondary meter.

I don't think this is feasible or necessary. When you "bypass" and switch off the power to the existing outlet serving the Blink, it will have to be unplugged and plugged into another outlet, which means a second run of conduit and another 220V receptacle set next to the existing one. SDG&E will not look fondly on tapping ANY feed in front of one of their meters (it may not even conform to building codes to do so). If you are going to go to the expense of running another circuit to power the Blink, you could just install another 40AMP breaker in your service box for the house (which is metered as DR rate) instead of tapping the feed to the second meter to "bypass" it, unless you don't have the reserve capacity for another circuit in your main box.

Most of all, I think you will find this is an unnecessary expense to avoid a few extra dollars on your electricity bill, as the times you need to charge your car on-peak will likely be few and far between, depending on your driving habits. If you need a little more juice during midday for some reason, just plug the 120V EVSE into a wall socket in the garage and charge on DR, or go to a nearby public L2 charge station. We have been using the car for a over a month now with only the L1 EVSE and have not been limited whatsoever by the "slow" charging at 120V. You could also get your L1 modded/upgraded to L2 if you have a spare 240V receptacle already installed somewhere on the house meter (for an electric dryer or whatnot), if speed of charging is a concern. Personally, I see no need for it.

TT

 

[lonndoggie]

Great charts, Walterbays! Interesting to see that charging during peak, at least with the numbers you selected, ends up more expensive than the ICE. I reckon someone who works the graveyard shift and buys a Leaf wouldn't sign up for the EV study.

Your next update would be to do similar charts for DR-SES. However, I'm not sure how you even get started with that one, too many variables involved (starting with finding out the true rates from SDG&E, which is, as we've seen, a non-trivial adventure).

Glad you recognized Groucho. I've used that picture for an avatar for a while. A few years ago, a young woman I worked with asked me "Who is that, Saddam Hussein?" Sigh. OK, I'm ready, more comments about us being old farts. That said, I started showing my kids (10 and 12) the Marx Brothers, and at least the older one can't get enough now.

As to what Groucho would say: As pertains to SDG&E's rates, or Nissan's reservation/order/delivery policy, perhaps:

"Why a four-year-old child could understand this rate/policy. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it."

And, there's your avatar, Fred, once he gets his Leaf: YABBA-DABBA-DOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Thanks for the kind wishes for me getting my car. Back atcha.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Because the second "subtractive" meter has easily access feed lines, would it make sense to install a big "BYPASS" switch for that meter?

That is, when rates are not favorable, flip the big knife switch and power the same Blink EVSE from the house meter directly, and accrue zero kWh on the secondary meter.

I don't think this is feasible or necessary. When you "bypass" and switch off the power to the existing outlet serving the Blink, it will have to be unplugged and plugged into another outlet, which means a second run of conduit and another 220V receptacle set next to the existing one.

Nope.. I was thinking of something much simpler.

I'm looking at the BACK of the second (subtractive) meter box, right here in my garage.
There are two lines going in (both phases) and two lines going out (downstream)

A dual-pole switch would simply "shunt" across the meter. There is no need to unplug the Blink, and the Blink would never so much as well, blink.. it keeps power on at all times.

Effectively, I'd be moving the Blink circuit "in front of" the subtractive meter.

It's seriously simple, and provides a choice of which meter to bill to.

 

[electricfuture]

Well I do see that these are the same rates as lonndoggie posted earlier. However, the big question was whether they were including the additional “transmission/distribution /generation” charges which I noted were below the line adders in your tiered rate table bill. I am relieved to see there are no adders, which is not what I was told verbally by SDG&E when I called their “rate group”. But as they stated all bets are off Nov. 2012 when we will be given a choice of non-experimental rates from which to choose.

Waltersbays table is excellent. Did you include a factor for the cost of ICE oil changes, air/oil filters, transmission flushes, smog testing, points, water pumps, hose/belt replacements, etc. or is this strictly based on the current rising cost of gasoline? Are you considering the battery change out to offset these savings?

Concerning delivery, Nissan Poway called and said THEY don't even know when a shipment is coming. Prior to the earthquake they would receive at least a 1 week notice - but not anymore. The vehicles just show up. I was encouraged that there is a possiblilty my vehicle's delay from April to June could be shortened - but no change yet.

Also, no second meter or Blink yet either. I was told by the dealership the Blinks are now being installed just days before and sometime the same day as the vehicle delivery.

 

[derkraut]

Thanks for the chart and info, Walterbays. Even an old Fa*t like me can understand that data.

 

[walterbays]

Did you include a factor for the cost of ICE oil changes, air/oil filters, transmission flushes, smog testing, points, water pumps, hose/belt replacements, etc. or is this strictly based on the current rising cost of gasoline?

No, gasoline and electricity only. Also on PV I don't figure the depreciated capital cost of my solar panels since they're long since paid for. I'm interested in my out of pocket cost from this moment on, and that is the amount of money I don't get back from SDG&E for over-production.

Concerning delivery, Nissan Poway called and said THEY don't even know when a shipment is coming. Prior to the earthquake they would receive at least a 1 week notice - but not anymore. The vehicles just show up. I was encouraged that there is a possiblilty my vehicle's delay from April to June could be shortened - but no change yet.

Ever hopeful, I think this is because they're sending cars out much faster now, and there is a chance your delay will be shortened. But if so you'll probably get no advance notice of your good fortune.

Also, no second meter or Blink yet either. I was told by the dealership the Blinks are now being installed just days before and sometime the same day as the vehicle delivery.

Not necessarily. Some like me got the Blink installed long before any chance of the car showing up. Some others got the Blink installed long after the car was delivered. L1 charging only will take you quite a few miles per week.

 

[electricfuture]

O.K. So then if you did not include ICE maintenance cost Leaf economy will be even better than shown. The vast majority of people do not realize the comparative low maintenance cost advantage of the Leaf – as recently was (not) highlighted in a recent SD Tribune article. I generally own a car for over 20 years and have proved to myself that this is the least expensive way to go including the cost of engine re-builds, new paint, replaced interior panels, exterior/interior moldings, head lights, suspension replacement, radio/CD/MP3/speaker upgrades all keeping the look and ride of the car like new.

I plan on keeping the Leaf that long – but the cost to maintain a like new feel will be FAR less expensive because it has few moving parts and a battery pack that can be changed out in sections if I like rather than all at once. To this end there is no real economic comparison to an ICE. The Leaf wins hands down – not to mention gas cost will go up and so will PV tech to the point I expect it to power the Leaf off grid in 5 years. I also expect cheaper longer range batteries in 5 years – you know like lap top batteries going from 2 hr to 6 hrs longevity in a few years time.

This is why the body hardware/paint/interior cloth inspection I made in another thread was so important to me.

OK so in the future we could have heads up displays (like Cadillac), holographic eye steering and “autopilot”, but with the over the top computer system on the Leaf even most of this could probably be upgraded later. Actually there are already significantly better solar panels available than the one Nissan provides on the Leaf.

I am not too sure how much longer gas will be available but I think electric generation is here to stay. Just think in another 20 years it could be just San Diego Electric Company!

 

[ttweed]

I am not too sure how much longer gas will be available but I think electric generation is here to stay. Just think in another 20 years it could be just San Diego Electric Company!

You do realize that the "Gas" in SDG&E stands for "natural gas" and not "gasoline," don't you? Natural gas is what generates most of the electricity in San Diego, and it's not going anywhere or running out in 20 years. Without it, we would be left with only nuclear and solar/hydro electric power here, along with the small percentage of coal-generated electricity we import from other states (mostly Utah).

TT

 

[garygid]

I like the 2nd-meter "bypass" switch idea, for the months that a PV system over-generates, to get some of the EV efuel for "free" from the house PV system.

However, I might wire it slightly differently, just to make the "bypass" less obvious - perhaps another breaker with wires to the nearby "EV-Plug" location, and a 2PDT switch there, right at the plug, to connect the plug either to circuit #1 (the EV-Meter) or circuit #2 (the house/PV breaker).

But, no re-plugging of the EVSE would be necessary.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Solar Net metering is annual, so overproductive months cancel out the shorter months in winter.

Really, it's most applicable during the Peak times, when the EVSE would rack up charges at some absurd rate much higher than my one-rate Domestic, offset by Solar.

 

[electricfuture]

Yes I know the “G” stands for gas – worked for an oil company for 25 years including gas processing. I wish to thank you gentlemen for your use of fossil fuels during that time! 20% of our electricity is from Nuclear (YEAH) at San Onofre (worked on one eons ago) the rest is pumped in from fossil fuel plants from out of state so we don’t get the pollution.

“Natural gas” is a fossil fuel – the same as coal. It must be “cleaned” usually to get out excessive sulfur before is shipped. It must also be condensed for shipping and delivered to Mexico so SEMPRA can improve their bottom line by avoiding taxes. Here is the real deal – SEMPRA loves SDG&E to use natural gas to power their peaking gas turbines – because that is their product and oh yeah – SEMPRA owns SDG&E! The renewables they are involved with are smoke screen to hide their continued use of hydrocarbon fuels.

If everyone drives electric car oil imports would be completely eliminated – check it out. Then no more trade deficit – not to mention not needing our boys fighting and dying so people can drive ICE’s.
Nuclear power plants (hopefully fusion) and electric cars are the future for this country. So let’s upgrade the power grid!

 

[ttweed]

However, I might wire it slightly differently, just to make the "bypass" less obvious - perhaps another breaker with wires to the nearby "EV-Plug" location, and a 2PDT switch there, right at the plug, to connect the plug either to circuit #1 (the EV-Meter) or circuit #2 (the house/PV breaker).

There is no simple or "non-obvious" way for me to do this feasibly, and no real benefit for me since I have no PV system. All the meter and EVSE circuit components are surface-mounted on the outside of my garage, which is "old-time" single-wall construction. There is not enough room in the main box to even add another 40-amp breaker even if I wanted to. If I want to charge in peak periods off the house's meter, I will just use the L1 EVSE plugged into a garage 120V receptacle.

You have one of the modded 240V-capable L1/L2 Nissan portable units, don't you Gary? Why wouldn't you just add a 240V receptacle off the house meter and plug that in? I just can't see taking the risk that you might piss off SDG&E, Ecotality, or violate city electrical codes by tapping a switch into the second meter feed to power the Blink unit. If I was going to do it, I certainly wouldn't talk about it here!

TT

 

[sdbonez]

I'll post my bill in a few days

Well, my bill was late due to the meter swaps but here's some quick/useful data (hopefully) - this is coming straight from my bill. (I'm on the middle pricing study rate)

Summer On-Peak:
Electricity Delivery - $.14045/kWh
Electricity Generation - $.14687/kWh
DWR Bond Charge - $.00505/kWh
Total: $.29237/kWh (Letter said: $.29284/kWh)

Summer Off-Peak:
Electricity Delivery - $.12132
Electricity Generation - $.05751/kWh
DWR Bond Charge - $.00505/kWh
Total: $.18388/kWh (Letter said: $.18418/kWh)

Summer Super Off-Peak:
Electricity Delivery - $.03584
Electricity Generation - $.03545/kWh
DWR Bond Charge - $.00505/kWh
Total: $.07634/kWh (Letter said: $.07646/kWh)

Other:
Minor taxes not worth calculating (in my mind, explains the very, very minor difference)

Bottom line - the rates in the SDG&E 'Congratulations! Charging your electric vehicle using a separate meter...' are TOTAL rates.

 

[garygid]

Three easy TOU rates, OK.
Multiply by amount used during the time period, totaled over the month. OK, normally easy.

How does SDG&E handle negative use (over-gegeration) during one or more time periods?

 

[davewill]

Three easy TOU rates, OK.
Multiply by amount used during the time period, totaled over the month. OK, normally easy.

How does SDG&E handle negative use (over-gegeration) during one or more time periods?

This is an EV study, so these rates only apply to Blinks in the EV Project, connected to their own meter. Home generation isn't a possibility.

 

[garygid]

Well, after the EVProject is over, if somebody did accidently hook up a small PV system to the EV circuit, to be able to "SOLAR-charge" their car ... no, I guess the PU wants your real money for EV charging.

So, I guess my TOU questions really only apply to a whole-house TOU schedule, with no second meter.

Is anybody with Solar PV over-generation using a 2nd meter for EV charging?

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

The two are mutually exclusive. The EVSE meter is not "net".

Really, if your solar is overproducing, and SDG&E is paying you $0.05, you screwed up by joining the EV Project. You would have been better off just plugging into your house electric and using your own overproduction to charge.

Alternatively, if you're somewhere in between, you could switch between the EV Project circuit and charging off your house as overproduction looks apparent for the year. Wouldn't be hard.

IMHO, if you bought a solar system large enough to overproduce (Net Positive for the year), then you're either expecting increased load (growing family, EVs, etc) or did it for some reason other than economics.

 

[walterbays]

Really, if your solar is overproducing, and SDG&E is paying you $0.05, you screwed up by joining the EV Project. You would have been better off just plugging into your house electric and using your own overproduction to charge.

We sized our PV to barely overproduce and for years have donated the small surplus to SDG&E so even a nickel is better.

Alternatively, if you're somewhere in between, you could switch between the EV Project circuit and charging off your house as overproduction looks apparent for the year. Wouldn't be hard.

Sure, if the surplus looks big just trickle charge from the house meter more, and you're buying electricity from yourself for $0.05/kWh.

IMHO, if you bought a solar system large enough to overproduce (Net Positive for the year), then you're either expecting increased load (growing family, EVs, etc) or did it for some reason other than economics.

Our surplus grew over the years as we replaced all the original incandescent bulbs, bought more efficient computers, TV, etc. Rather than lose all those kWh for nothing I put some of them back into electric space heating in winter to displace natural gas. (Just the sort of "bad" decision driven by bad disincentives like a feed-in tariff of $0.00.) Putting a few kWh into a car is a better use for it.

 

[lonndoggie]

Really, if your solar is overproducing, and SDG&E is paying you $0.05, you screwed up by joining the EV Project.

No, the EV Project was still a good thing to join--you get the free EVSE.

The SDG&E EV Rate Study would be a bad thing to join, however. You can be in the EV Project but opt out of the rate study.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Agreed.

The best/lowest you can pay for EVP power is $0.07, so if you're getting paid $0.05 by SDG&E, you're better off putting it into your car. But it's close..