The REAL Charging Cost per SDG&E and "Equivalent ICE mpg"

[electricfuture]

I obtained my data concerning the actual per kWh charges for all three rate schedules (standard tiered home use, EV, and EV-TOU) after several conversations with SDG&E billing department and confirmation that indeed the 0.095 is to be added to the published rates as I show in my post for every group and tier rate.

My information includes ONLY per kWh charges and not taxes or other percentage based fees as this would further muddy the waters. So it is actually worse.

If you call SDG&E on the phone number that is on your bill they are clueless, you must asked to be transferred to the group that is in charge of these rate billing – which is where I received my confirmations. I confirmed these rates again the day of my post.

I know that there are several SDG&E employee Leaf owners – maybe they can chime in?

I have repeatedly asked SDG&E to change their format so that the “below the line” per kWh costs are rolled up into their cost schedule table shown at the top of their bill. They just keep telling me to look at the asterisk which points you to the additional charges below that are not included in the rates shown in the table. PLEASE CALL THEM AND ASK – maybe if enough people call they will tell the truth.

Did any of you see the post of the Purdue University study showing that SDG&E is over charging EV rates? They saw through the smoke.

But not to worry – as I said in my post I will get 150 mpg for the same100 mile fuel cost of driving my Honda Civic Hybrid. As someone mentioned earlier in addition to the 3,000 bonus mile I mentioned the tax breaks add another 100,000 bonus miles.

As for why my Leaf was delayed from April delivery to “the month of June” – good question. I have chatted with Nissan 3 times and there is no good answer. Although they said it could possibly move up it hasn’t so far.

 

[lonndoggie]

I obtained my data concerning the actual per kWh charges for all three rate schedules (standard tiered home use, EV, and EV-TOU) after several conversations with SDG&E billing department and confirmation that indeed the 0.095 is to be added to the published rates as I show in my post for every group and tier rate.

Excellent. My conversations with SDG&E have been less than illuminating, which is why I take everything they say, and publish via their website, with a grain of salt. The truth is out there...somewhere.

I know that there are several SDG&E employee Leaf owners – maybe they can chime in?

Perhaps you missed that Randy did just that. See the fourth post in this thread. Taking his numbers, I've calculated the rate he paid per kWh, and added to the end the total rates per TOU for summer and winder, for the "Z" (high ratio--Randy's rate schedule) quoted in the pdf from sdge (http://www.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/2219-E.pdf):

TOU Class      Total paid kWh used total rate   SDG&E Summer   SDG&E Winter
on peak             $1.01        3   $0.33667       $0.38390       $0.34019
off peak            $0.53        4   $0.13250       $0.15356       $0.13607
super off peak      $6.47       99   $0.06535       $0.06723       $0.07043

It appears that Randy is pretty close to the published total rates. Maybe he should call SDG&E and ask why he isn't paying enough?

Did any of you see the post of the Purdue University study showing that SDG&E is over charging EV rates? They saw through the smoke.

No, have a link? I wonder if that's the old, existing rates--which are similar to the "X" rate, not Randy's "Z" rate. BTW, our friends in PG&E territory seem to have it even worse, judging from some of their posts.

EDIT: Do you mean this? http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2375 If so, that's all about how our tiered rate structures suck when it comes to adding charging an EV to your house. True, which is why the TOU rates, with or without a second meter, are in place (SDG&E has had TOU rates for EVs for quite a while, either whole-house or separate metered).

Me, I've got my Blink installed, waiting for SDG&E to put in the meter, getting a rate assigned to me...and for that call that says my Leaf is in. I look forward to the opportunity to see exactly what SDG&E will be charging me, because, as you point out, no matter what it is, it'll be cheaper than buying gas!

EDIT 2: Oh, I glossed over this:

I obtained my data concerning the actual per kWh charges for all three rate schedules (standard tiered home use, EV, and EV-TOU)...

Right. Standard tiered and EV-TOU (there are three existing EV-TOU rates btw) are not included in the three experimental rates used in SDG&E's EV Study; not sure what the EV rate is. There is also DR-SES, which is another TOU rate for PV users (which may also not quote total rate).

Once again, see the PDF linked to; that list total rates, and seems to be unique in that.

 

[Luft]

So the comparison is how far could I drive my Leaf for the same fuel cost of driving my Civic Hybrid 100 miles? $12/$8 X 100 = 150 miles!

I'm not comfortable with your calculations. It seems to me that if it really costs $8.00 to fully charge the Leaf and if you really can go 100 miles and gas is really $4.17 per gallon then you can easily calculate the equivalent miles/gallon.

$8.00 will by you about 1.92 gallons of gas at $4.17 per gallon and the same $8.00 that bought you 1.92 gallons of gas could push your Leaf 100 miles. so you are getting 100 miles/1.92 gallons or about 52 miles / gallon.

This seems very low to me. I'm thinking that it probably only costs about $3.00 to fully charge the Leaf.

That would by you about .7 gallons of gas. The same amount will push your Leaf 100 miles so you're getting 100/.7 or about 143 miles/gallon

 

[electricfuture]

Yes I looked at Randy’s attachment. This is not what I was told. But it will be a mute point at the end of next year because we will definitely be paying according to the “published rate” - note from the letter: This experimental schedule shall remain in effect until November 30, 2012 (or until the completion of the study) after which the customer will be given the choice of otherwise applicable rate schedules.

Here is the actual letter with the table that SDG&E sent to me with "congradulations" for installing a second meter (not yet installed). When I called the number I was told that Generation cost would be added to this. Maybe I should try again?:

Congratulations! Charging your electric vehicle using a separate meter enables you to monitor what it cost you to “fuel” your car. Below is the rate information showing your electricity costs. These rates may change periodically as our cost for providing electricity fluctuates.

As you can see, charging your vehicle during Super Off-Peak and Off-Peak hours will reduce your overall cost of electricity. Charging On-Peak will result in a higher bill.

Electric Vehicle Time-Of-Use Rates dollars per kilowatt/hour*

Summer (May 1 to October 31):Rate
On-Peak Noon - 8pm $0.27027
Off-Peak All other hours $0.16480
Super Off-Peak Midnight - 5am $0.13860

Winter (November 1 to April 30):
On-Peak Noon - 8pm $0.17681
Off-Peak All other hours $0.17001
Super Off-Peak Midnight - 5am $0.14259
*Effective January 1, 2011. Subject to a minimum daily bill amount of $0.17

Our electric vehicle time-of-use rates are designed to encourage you to charge during Super Off-Peak hours when demand for electricity is lowest. By charging your vehicle Super Off-Peak, you help with the availability of electricity during the day when demand is the highest.

If you have any questions regarding rates, the study, or how to save money, please email us at [email protected] or call us at 858-654-1268.

 

[electricfuture]

Concerning equivalent ICE gas mileage – all I did was compare my current ride mpg fuel cost to the equivalent electric cost. I agree with the calculation showing 147 mpg. It is just approaching from a different direction.

 

[jjssd]

After reading the recent posts, I am still very upset with my X rate. I pay twice the super off peak rate of the other two rates. Double the cost in my book is outrageous. Where is the incentive to charge during super off peak. Is that not the purpose of the study. To see if people if can be motivated to charge during times that will help grid integrity. The X rate is useless for study purposes and should be eliminated from the study.

 

[lonndoggie]

Yes I looked at Randy’s attachment.

Randy had no attachment, he listed actuals. I had links to PDFs that quoted total rates.

This is not what I was told.

Right. SDG&E speak with forked tongue. Anyway, again, I have a strong preference for empirical data, and Randy's indicates that what's in that PDF is reasonably accurate, and shows total rates.

But it will be a mute point...

Silent? Or perhaps "moot"...

...at the end of next year because we will definitely be paying according to the “published rate” - note from the letter: This experimental schedule shall remain in effect until November 30, 2012 (or until the completion of the study) after which the customer will be given the choice of otherwise applicable rate schedules.

Yes, but we weren't talking about that. "Otherwise applicable" could mean anything, btw; rates could change, and some of the experimental rates could be adopted for general use. We shall see.

Here is the actual letter with the table that SDG&E sent to me with "congradulations" for installing a second meter (not yet installed). When I called the number I was told that Generation cost would be added to this. Maybe I should try again?

Sure. Try again. Or, just hop on the roller-coaster like Randy did, and like I'm about to, and see how it pans out. In Randy's case, it worked out for the best--the rates quoted are total rates, and that's what he's being charged. And as you point out, you're in a win-win situation: If the rates are as high as you say, then you're still saving money, and if they don't include the extra nine cents per kWh, then you're the electric equivalent of a guy with a siphon.

Oddly enough, I got my letter today, and it looks like I'm on the Y rate (the middle one, but way better than the X rate which it appears you got). Woot!

Finally--if it turns out that you don't have to pay the extra $.09 per, or if I do, can we agree that SDG&E is the House Of No Straight Answers?

 

[lonndoggie]

After reading the recent posts, I am still very upset with my X rate. I pay twice the super off peak rate of the other two rates. Double the cost in my book is outrageous. Where is the incentive to charge during super off peak. Is that not the purpose of the study. To see if people if can be motivated to charge during times that will help grid integrity. The X rate is useless for study purposes and should be eliminated from the study.

Yeah, the X rate isn't so great. But I kinda get why they're doing it--if you choose to charge any old time of day, and those with the lower off-peak rates charge only late at night, that'll "prove" that such rate schedules work to shift charging to late-night hours. However, if you don't charge wily-nilly, it could also lead them to the bad conclusion that they can charge whatever they want, and folks will still charge mostly at night, while they are sleeping, anyway.

Shudder.

So...charge during peak times now-and-then, would ya?

Gaak...I'm not helping to make you feel any better, am I? Not making me feel better about future rate structures, either....

 

[walterbays]

So...charge during peak times now-and-then, would ya?

+1

If you're unlucky enough to draw the X rate you may be tempted to be a good citizen even though there are no incentives for you. That sort of "altruism" could in fact be harmful to yourself and others. We know the X rate is ridiculous. But if the rate experiment doesn't show it to be ridiculous there is some chance that we will be stuck with it, or something close to it, for years to come.

 

[ttweed]

This seems very low to me. I'm thinking that it probably only costs about $3.00 to fully charge the Leaf.

You are correct. Even if you are in the least favorable rate group, and will pay twice as much per kWh as Randy does, at an average of 4 miles range per kWh, you will need 25 kWh to go 100 miles in your Leaf. If you charge during super off-peak period, even at $.14/kWh it will cost you only $3.50 for that 100 miles, not $8.00, as electricfuture is saying. If you look at Randy's post on the first page, he paid a total of $9.11 for 106 kWh, including all taxes and surcharges. He estimates that amount of electricity took him ~390 miles. At $4.55/gal. of gas, he is getting about 195 mpg equivalent.

I don't know who electricfuture is talking to at SDG&E, but it is obvious from Randy's experience that there is no "hidden" or "extra" $.09/kWh added to the experimental rates quoted, as claimed in the original post.

BTW, I got my letter yesterday and was assigned the "high-ratio" rate like Randy. If I had gotten the "low ratio" X rate, I would have just charged at peak or any time I felt like it, just to show them that there is no incentive to charge at super off-peak unless they make the rate very attractive.

TT

 

[electricfuture]

Yes mute is Moot! When did they start expecting engineers to spell correctly? I sent an e-mail today to the EV Study (no one would answer the phone) requesting that they verify that there were no other per kWh charges above the rate schedule in their letter. I said I did not care about % fees such as taxes - just the total kWh rate.

So far no reply. I'll be happy to post it when received. (hope it beats the Leaf delivery!)

Concerning my earlier calculation - $8 includes the $0.095/kWh. I will re-calculate when it is confirmed what my rate actually will be! All I am doing is comparing MY cost for running MY Civic 100 miles at 34 mpg versus 100 miles in the Leaf using Edmonds 34 multiplier. Just follow the money because that is what the calculation is all about. I can transform my 34 mpg Civic into a 150 mpg Leaf with the same money spent for energy.

Also, I finally got a somewhat straight answer as to why MY Leaf delvery has been passed up while later orders have been filled - you'll love this chat from today:

Electricfuture: I originally signed up in Jan. 2010 and paid my $99 in April. In August I completed all paperwork. But I was told I could not order until Nov. after I received an e-mail. I ordered in Nov. and was told 4-6 month delivery. Then I had an "April" delivery. This was moved to June, but was told that this could move up. I can see on the Forum that people ordering later than myself have already received their vehicles. Why have I not received mine?

Jasmin: Yes there was an issue with some orders being filled out of order and I apologize for any frustrations this caused. Currently we are striving to fill orders from the people that were skipped over in order. Due to this mix up in order filling there have been some delays and confusion while we try to rectify the situation as best as possible.

Electricfuture: Look - I was one of the first to originally get on board. I cannot believe that I am being treated like this. You realize I have been in a que for 18 months? What can be done to get my vehicle moved up?

Jasmin: We are doing everything in our power to move up all the vehicles that were inadvertently skipped over including yours. I do apologize for the frustration, however we are doing the best we can to get your vehicle to you safely and properly.

Electricfuture: Well I can tell you that "excess" vehicles were being sold in L.A. by a dealership. Also, I have been checking this site for a month to see if there has been a "correction" and you can see - nothing yet.

Jasmin: Those 'excess' vehicles are vehicles that were produced for a consumer that was for one reason or another unable to take delivery. At that point the vehicle belongs to the dealership to dispose of as they see fit. The correction we have in place provides you with a LEAF of your own made for you in June. I do apologize for the inconvenience.

Electricfuture: Then you also know that there is a Leaf on for sale on Autotrader!

Jasmin: Once we produce a LEAF for a customer we cannot control what happens to the car if the customer becomes unable to take delivery. At that point the LEAF belongs to the dealership. I apologize they are selling LEAFs in this manner. The only way we here are CS can rectify this situation is if we are notified of the cancellation before the car is sent to the dealership. Once the vehicle gets to the dealer it is in the dealerships hands not ours. Again I apologize for any inconveniences.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Seems like the first accurate answer I've seen from chat. They're right, of course.. once the car arrives at the dealership, it belongs to the dealership.

 

[lonndoggie]

Yes mute is Moot! When did they start expecting engineers to spell correctly?

Heh, sorry about that, it's one of my (written) language pet peeves, so I just had to poke at it.

I sent an e-mail today to the EV Study (no one would answer the phone) requesting that they verify that there were no other per kWh charges above the rate schedule in their letter. I said I did not care about % fees such as taxes - just the total kWh rate.

So far no reply. I'll be happy to post it when received. (hope it beats the Leaf delivery!)

I hope you do get an answer; look forward to hearing what they say.

I tried emailing them when the EV Project EVSE was about to get installed, as I didn't have the approval/drawings from them for the second meter yet--they didn't reply, but when I called, the guy looked up my email: "Oh, yeah, here it is." I take it your Blink and second meter are already in place?

I sent them an email today too, asking why they keep sending me everything via USPS and not via email. I was going to ask them your question, too, but figured I'd keep it simple, just one question at a time.

I can transform my 34 mpg Civic into a 150 mpg Leaf with the same money spent for energy.

And that's a beautiful thing, and do even better if you can lop $0.09 off the unit cost!

BTW, as my sig says, I have a 4/22 delivery week, which is almost over. :roll:

 

[electricfuture]

After 2 days no replay from SDG&E yet about clarifying the rate structure. Seems odd considering it is published. I am starting to think I was right (hope not). I can tell you that the retired SDG&E Engineer I met at the UCSD event really thought that TOU would always be cheaper - but the lady there explained otherwise. He was surprised.
I'll post as soon as they give me a reply.

 

[sdbonez]

I'll post my bill in a few days

 

[vgniphone]

Here is Damascus Oregon, with Portland General Electric as the utility, if I divide my power bill by KWH used I'm paying $00.109 per KWH. About $3.00 per 100 miles.

 

[electricfuture]

Here is the reply from SDGE
looks like the .14 is the total
All the rate charges are included. You may view the details of the cost at http://sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC_ELEC-SCHEDS_EPEV-X.pdf

 

[lonndoggie]

Here is the reply from SDGE
looks like the .14 is the total
All the rate charges are included. You may view the details of the cost at http://sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC_ELEC-SCHEDS_EPEV-X.pdf

Right.

Or, you can see all three in this document: http://www.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/2219-E.pdf

Which I included in my first post.

BTW, I now have the Blink and the second meter...but it's having issues with my wireless network.

And, of course--no car. Still April 22nd.

 

[walterbays]

you can see all three in this document: http://www.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/2219-E.pdf

Which I included in my first post.

Thanks!

I calculated "fuel" cost in cents per mile for the various SDG&E rates, standard tiered DR rate and the EV Project experimental EV rates. I compared them to cost for an efficient ICE car. I used 4 mi / kWh for the Leaf and 35 MPG for the ICE, and $4.30 / gallon gasoline. For TOU rates since super off-peak is only 5 hours per day and L2 charging is at only 3.3 kW, that means you can only replenish 16.5 kWh at the lowest rates and if you need more then you're charging at the higher off-peak rate. So the first 66 miles of driving per day (well over my my typical daily needs) are at the cheapest rate, and any additional miles are at the higher rate. I assume that charging at peak rates would only be done in "emergencies."

For DR it's a matter of what tier(s) of consumption your car usage is charged in. I calculated one additional "rate" - the cost of surplus PV production used to charge the car rather than sold back to SDG&E at the end of the year. If your solar panels produce excess power annually, that's the rate you're effectively paying for your efuel - up to the amount of excess kWh. I don't think the final price is settled yet in the regulatory process, but it looks like it may be the wholesale price of electricity, 5 cents per kWh. That's pretty cheap, especially for power delivered to the grid mostly in peak hours. Rather than selling the power so cheaply, you're better off putting it into your Leaf. After that surplus power is depleted, then you start paying at tier 1 rates, then tier 2, and so on.

Legend for charts below:
first 66: cost of driving the first 66 miles per day
over 66: cost of driving any miles over 66 per day
emergency: cost using "emergency" peak time charging
all miles: in this rate, the cost applies to all miles driven
X: Experimental EV-X rate (low spread)
Y: Experimental EV-Y rate (medium spread)
Z: Experimental EV-Z rate (high spread)
PV: Charging with surplus solar panel production
DR1: tier 1 of DR rate
DR2: tier 2
DR3: tier 3
DR4: tier 4
ICE: cost of driving ICE car

Some observations on the summer chart: The experimental rates, even the worst X rate, look better than DR if you're driving 66 miles or less per day and there is a chance your usage would push you out of DR tier 1. EV driving is much cheaper than an ICE. (You may now tell me "duh!" Even if some unanticipated event forces you to charge at peak time, you're still not paying a lot more than today's gasoline. But - sorry to say - it doesn't make much economic sense for people in the EV-X rate group to purposely charge in peak hours to "teach SDG&E a lesson" that the X rate is no good. I'll just have to hope that SDG&E concludes that on their own.

The winter chart looks much the same. Emergency peak charging isn't so costly - about the same as fueling an ICE car.

Disclaimer: Your mileage may vary, MPG and mi/kWh. Your gas price may vary, but I'm afraid that this summer it will probably only vary upwards.

And, of course--no car. Still April 22nd.

I hope your car arrives soon! Every posting of yours I wonder what Groucho would say about this whole situation. Seriously, I hope your car arrives before mine since you reserved well before me. (And I do not hope that my car is delayed at all - just that yours hurries up.)

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Very nice data, walterbays.. good way to visualize it.

Because the second "subtractive" meter has easily access feed lines, would it make sense to install a big "BYPASS" switch for that meter?

That is, when rates are not favorable, flip the big knife switch and power the same Blink EVSE from the house meter directly, and accrue zero kWh on the secondary meter.

From a wiring perspective, it seems trivial to bypass the meter junction. You're still behind the house meter, so there is no 'theft' going on, you're just temporarily connecting the Blink EVSE to the house mains instead of the secondary meter.

This seems like it would be the preferred mode of operation any time you are not in Off-Peak/Super-Off-Peak, and still within the lower tiers of residential DR for the month.

For example, if you wanted to "emergency charge" during the day, flip the switch, fill up on DR, and go about your business.