The 62kWh Battery Topic

[DougWantsALeaf]

Looking at the Model 3 chat threads, many users reporing to be down to 90% capacity within first couple years at different mileages. Many babying their batteries.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/master-thread-range-loss-over-time-what-can-be-expected-how-to-maintain-battery-health.166549/page-61

Not to say you can't cook your Leaf, but it doesn't seem that the degradation curves are very different...at least anymore.

 

[jlsoaz]

Thanks for posting, really interesting to see the experiences of some folks.

Looking at the Model 3 chat threads, many users reporing to be down to 90% capacity within first couple years at different mileages. Many babying their batteries.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/master-thread-range-loss-over-time-what-can-be-expected-how-to-maintain-battery-health.166549/page-61

Not to say you can't cook your Leaf, but it doesn't seem that the degradation curves are very different...at least anymore.

 

[salyavin]

Interesting to hear and surprising. I remember a Bolt owner here said the bolt battery is outlasting Tesla as well. Good to see that comparison.
Reminds me how much I love having LeafSpy on the LEAF.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Bolt batteries do seem to be doing excellent. I can't say I have heard of too many cases where they have lost over 10% yet. Many are in the 6-9% range after 2 years.

My guess with Tesla is to meet production targets rhey are compromising on the battery quality going into the cheaper version of the car, and paying for it through wider variability of longer term batterty capacity retention.

We may notice the buffering strategy in our gen 2 Leafs, but it does feel like our experiences are fairly consistent.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Here is an interesting thread. It looks like in the SR+ 240 to 250 upgrade, it was at least partially spin using a bit of buffer to help obtain the mileage.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-3-sr-low-battery-capacity-and-165-mile-real-world-range.201179/

I think Audi/Porsche might have the experience right underpromise and well manage expectations.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Bolt batteries do seem to be doing excellent. I can't say I have heard of too many cases where they have lost over 10% yet. Many are in the 6-9% range after 2 years.

My guess with Tesla is to meet production targets rhey are compromising on the battery quality going into the cheaper version of the car, and paying for it through wider variability of longer term batterty capacity retention.

We may notice the buffering strategy in our gen 2 Leafs, but it does feel like our experiences are fairly consistent.

The same could be said for Volt batteries as well but is that exercising a hidden buffer (likely in the Volt) or just much better chemistry? Well, the chemistry advantage doesn't seem to be that extreme for anyone yet so Bolt could be seeing small gains due to the most conservative DC charging profile maybe?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Multiple forums have speculated that the 55kW charging limit has reduced the rate of degradation. Even heavy drivers (like news Coulomb) who do significant DC charging, are only seeing limited degradation.

One thing I am very curious about is the Kia, Hyundai degratdation. Many owners a year on are purporting 0% degredation..which I am very skeptical of. I would believe that their BMS has some buffer or voltage levers to minimize any percieved impact. I know their user group in the US is still pretty small.

After reading a number of threads on the Tesla forum, while I understand their user community is now pretty big, it does feel like the noise around range and degradation is significantly worse than the marketing materials we see in the press. Obviously all still anecdotal, though honestly...almost in line with what we see in this forum with the newer Leaf.

Does anyone know of any forum or database about Niro or Kona battery degradation?

 

[SageBrush2]

My guess with Tesla ..

From the fellow who cannot figure out kW from kWh, and posts on the Tesla forum that the energy remaining meter is a GOM.

Great.

Cherry picking a report here and a report there to support your narrative is deceptive FUD. Look up a histogram of Tesla Model 3 battery degradation for a more honest answer.

In the meantime, enjoy my anecdote: Model 3 LR bought 6/2018, presumed range 324 miles based on EPA CSI (Mulroney sticker said 314 miles, although that was widely believed to be Tesla choosing a range less that testing achieved.) Today my car is at 320 miles. Call it 1% degradation in over two years in a hot (but not blistering) SW climate.

Here is an example of data that has some merit, from the STATS for Tesla app cohort of owners with the LR Model 3
https://medium.com/@lesswire1/tesla-battery-longevity-e2d63797c3f0

 

[salyavin]

Sadly I cannot see your image with the Tesla data.
I have been curious about the Niro as well. I only know a guy (that Bolt driver down the street) who knows a guy who drives long distance in a Niro but I have no idea how their batteries hold up etc.

 

[SageBrush]

Sadly I cannot see your image with the Tesla data.

https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1rqIheJ4W0HWr8bNToSJew_FAa_IoytPF

Sorry about that ...
Now ?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I like the graphic. So after 20K miles (so let's assume 20 months as well ballpark), midpoint was around 295, with 1 deviation at or above about 291 miles from a 310 starting point or say 2/3rds see 7% degradation or less. I would be neat to see the same using months on the X axis, to see how it differed.

I would love to see the same for the Bolt and Gen 2 Leaf.

 

[SageBrush]

^^ A better description would be early degradation of ~ 5%, and then degradation of 0.5 - 1.5% a year

 

[Anonymous]

I like the graphic. So after 20K miles (so let's assume 20 months as well ballpark), midpoint was around 295, with 1 deviation at or above about 291 miles from a 310 starting point or say 2/3rds see 7% degradation or less. I would be neat to see the same using months on the X axis, to see how it differed.

I would love to see the same for the Bolt and Gen 2 Leaf.

Bolt is (allegedly) around 0% degradation or circa 5% per 130,000 miles. I've heard of a lot of Model 3s having degradation in the 5-10% range after a year or two, so I'd probably attribute that to their faster charging and discharging (55/150 kW vs 250/350 kW).

 

[jlsoaz]

This is perhaps getting somewhat off-topic, and this may already have been posted and discussed in a different thread (I gave up a long time ago being enough of a MNL junkie to try to look thoroughly around before posting), but there's some decent discussion (in my view) at this video of Leaf and Tesla degradation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz-Kx5h_Tw&feature=emb_rel_end

Starting around 17:53 there is discussion of some robust data on older Leafs and Teslas. At around 19:40 he starts to present some charts. Most of the people here will be familiar with at least some of the data, and may disagree with some of it, but all-in-all, I personally found the video and the data on degradation at least somewhat supplemental to my own thinking on the matter.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

^^ A better description would be early degradation of ~ 5%, and then degradation of 0.5 - 1.5% a year

Agreed. I know one person who was pretty meticulous about tracking charging and cost, etc. and he figured he lost 7% the first year with a lot of driving but has lost so little after that, he isn't sure if its as much as one percent. They did do a trip to Texas (all from Olympia) two to California and several to Canada. They admitted they did more driving the first year than they had in many years.

I am a bit fuzzy on the numbers but i think they did 35-38,000 the first year and are just over or nearing 65,000?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

The 90kWh pack was maybe the exception to this with some of the recent data leaked from Tesla. Those packs (some of them at least) fell off much faster. What is interesting is the timing is similar to the 30kWh packs that Nissan had problems and seemed to step back from the reliability of the Lizard.

These may be outliers, but quite a few threads of M3 owners down 15% or more within first 2 years. Teslas warranty is very similar to the Leaf, so until you hit 30% loss, you get little simpathy. Sr+ battery is between the 40 and 62kWh of the Leafs, so should be interesting to see long term durability of both. My cars are both due for adjustment in a couple weeks..cant wait....

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/reduced-model-3-sr-rang.202069/#post-4892528

 

[SageBrush]

I like the graphic. So after 20K miles (so let's assume 20 months as well ballpark), midpoint was around 295, with 1 deviation at or above about 291 miles from a 310 starting point or say 2/3rds see 7% degradation or less.

I'm not sure what or how your are reading the graph. At 20k miles the Tesla Model 3 LR average is ~ 310 miles with one SD of ~ 5 miles. The more important detail though is that from about 10k miles almost no degradation is seen.

Try this source link
https://medium.com/@lesswire1/tesla-battery-longevity-e2d63797c3f0
and click on the graph for a more detailed view

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

The same graphic is in the link you provided.

In the Orange distribution (dual motor), there are 3 lines. I am assuming they are +/-1 standard deviation and midpoint. So within the upper and lower line you have approximately 2/3rds of cars are within those lines of confidence or between 290-291 and 302 (approx). Now the other 1/3 of overall cars (per the graph) is split between more and less than that "average" range after 20K miles. So you you have 16-17% which are below 290 miles, and while that is not large, when mapped against a 1/2 million cars (or whatever sales are at now), that is still 80K cars per that graph where you might have some grumpy consumers. At the same time you have 80K cars which are over performing and showing almost 0 degradation.

 

[SageBrush]

The same graphic is in the link you provided.

In the Orange distribution (dual motor), there are 3 lines. I am assuming they are +/-1 standard deviation and midpoint. So within the upper and lower line you have approximately 2/3rds of cars are within those lines of confidence or between 290-291 and 302 (approx). Now the other 1/3 of overall cars (per the graph) is split between more and less than that "average" range after 20K miles. So you you have 16-17% which are below 290 miles, and while that is not large, when mapped against a 1/2 million cars (or whatever sales are at now), that is still 80K cars per that graph where you might have some grumpy consumers. At the same time you have 80K cars which are over performing and showing almost 0 degradation.

That is a better reading but the dual motor cars are a mixture of cars where some of them have the OTA update that optimized motor use. That is why the distribution appears bi-modal. The single motor LR model is a cleaner, more normal distribution and follows what I wrote earlier.

I'll say it again, though, since you appear to still be missing the important detail: after a year or so the degradation is gratifyingly very low, in fact difficult to detect from year to year.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Though I know it is not Tesla's style, they would be better served publishing range numbers post year 1/20k miles, rather than day 1 range in terms of consumer experience and frustration. Audi and Porsche have done a little better job with that aspect.

I think leaf owners have been so bruised (though my experience has been great) that they are somewhat numb by now. We are also a bit more thrifty than the Tesla community (though Bolt community is close). This impacts infra build out connector support, etc..