The 62kWh Battery Topic

[LeftieBiker]

MPH?

 

[jlsoaz]

It's good to have this report, thanks for posting it.

So yesterday I drove over 800 miles on the interstate and mountains and desert in hot summer weather. The first fast charge was fine though that was like 6am, the second fast charge seemed OK but I didn't watch or time it very well but I've had some luck with them before. The third fast charger maxed at 19.5kw the batter temp marker hit the first red line, the fourth fast charge the batter went into the read and 55C als 19.5kw max, the 6th was very short.

A guy I know with a Bolt and someone he knows with a KIA do large hundreds of mile trips with less problems.

With the longer EV range and spreading fast charging I think even the plus needs battery cooling, I wish Nissan would do it in a future model. No bumpers or such fall off a LEAF but that lack of battery cooling is still a problem.

I guess you would call this rapid gate?

 

[salyavin]

MPH?

Yes you are right he seems to have a policy of not exceeding 55MPH which I am sure annoys some on the interstate but should be nicer to his battery.

 

[Learjet]

As I hang around here and see the constant complaints with the Leaf and thermal management, or lack thereof, I think there should be a disclaimer when talking about this car and here are my thoughts:

When the original Leaf was built there was not the infrastructure or the desire to do long cross country trips with multiple DCFC...sure some taxis running around town etc may have done a bunch of DC charging... but I would think many were not running around at 55 mph + between charges and didn't have the battery heat issues. Now with the charging stations all over, people expect the car to be able to drive nonstop. Unfortunately, it was not really built for that. It would have been great if Nissan added some type of thermal management when they made the changes in 2018...could have rebuilt the Leaf brand as a true cross country car.

If Nissan would make a disclaimer about the limits of DCFC in the manual and sales info...say...only 2-3 per 24 hrs...people would have a better idea of what this car is best at.

On a personal note, I could not be happier because I didn't buy this car to do DCFC. My intent is to charge from home 99.9% of the time. If I need more range I will take the ICE we have. I know that doesn't work for everyone, but that is when you buy something else besides a Leaf.

Just my thoughts...I know it's not new info....I'm sure you have yours!

 

[lorenfb]

On a personal note, I could not be happier because I didn't buy this car to do DCFC. My intent is to charge from home 99.9% of the time. If I need more range I will take the ICE we have. I know that doesn't work for everyone, but that is when you buy something else besides a Leaf.

My thoughts too. To expect more from a Leaf, is naive.

 

[salyavin]

Well you may be right but we think of the larger battery (more cells) is supposed to take heat better (much like the 40kw chemistry, or the lizard etc.) but yes you are right at least back to the 24kwh battery about 2DCFC seems to be all it should take. We now have a LEAF with a greater than 200 mile range on a charge, we have a supposed DCFC capability of 100kw, we have an extensive DCFC network such that you can now drive across the nation, we have similar level cars like the Bolt and the Niro that can do this (and do it regularly) so I think the expectation is not unreasonable though you are right historically the LEAF never was good at taking 3+ DCFC in a day. Nissan looks like they will do it too with the Ariya so looks like they are finally catching up.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Well, 'actually" the 24 kwh packs were never good for QC. They did not have rapidgate but charged slowly anyway with the knee below 50%m SOC.

Then the 30 kwh came out and it was a godsend (for me anyway) as it would charge full speed to 80% SOC and it would do it over and over and over. I charged it starting with 11 TBs a few times and there was never any slowdown

So the 40 kwh comes out and I am thinking the same, right?

WRONG!

The knee happened in the 60's most of the time usually around 63-65% and that was a good charge. Too cold and knee dropped as low as 46%. Too hot and you don't get full speed charging.

The rapidgate fi.... ahhh... adjustment helped moving the knee up a bit to the high 60's and the slowdown wasn't as severe but still

So now the 62 kwh comes out and it's knee varies based on charging speed. Plug into 50 kw (120ish amps) and knee would be 70%. A few times I hit 72% before it started to drop.

Plug into a 100 kw station (around 200 amps...which calculates to 80 kw but whatevs) and the knee is now around 45% but at 70%, its still going faster than a 50 kw machine.

So you see, the batteries have been tweaked with constantly and not always in the same direction. Now driving the same as the 40 kwh (in fact a few trips were same route, identical weather, etc) and the cells do stay cooler charging, driving, etc. but that only makes sense.

Either way, it becomes a question of chemistry verses TMS. I think Nissan's chemistry isn't as good.

 

[jlsoaz]

It appears Nissan will have a better cooling system in the Ariyah:

https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/nissans-product-transformation-continues-with-ariya-a-100-percent-electric-crossover-for-a-new-era
"[...]
Battery capacity
63 kWh / 87 kWh usable (total 65 kWh / 90 kWh)

Thermal management
Active battery management system
[...]..."

They do not use the word "liquid" in their press release on that page above, but I see it in other accounts.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/434648/nissan-ariya-specs-price-range/
https://electrek.co/2020/07/15/nissan-unveils-40000-300-mile-ariya-electric-suv-with-liquid-cooled-battery/

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Was mentioned during the unveil. I posted about it 3x already.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19842&p=587227&hilit=water#p587227
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30287&p=586758&hilit=water#p586758
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=586725#p586725 - time index no longer valid as is I think they trimmed off the beginning of the video before the actual unveil.

 

[jlsoaz]

^^^
Was mentioned during the unveil. I posted about it 3x already.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=19842&p=587227&hilit=water#p587227
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30287&p=586758&hilit=water#p586758
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=586725#p586725 - time index no longer valid as is I think they trimmed off the beginning of the video before the actual unveil.

Ok, cool, so there is liquid cooling for sure, good to have the confirmation.

 

[cwerdna]

BTW, not sure how you keep up with posts here on MNL. I find it easiest to just use visit https://www.mynissanleaf.com/search.php?search_id=active_topics. It's initially accessible via the hamburger menu in the upper left, then Active Topics.

You might've seen my replies and other Ariya news earlier if you hadn't already been doing that.

 

[jlsoaz]

BTW, not sure how you keep up with posts here on MNL. I find it easiest to just use visit https://www.mynissanleaf.com/search.php?search_id=active_topics. It's initially accessible via the hamburger menu in the upper left, then Active Topics.

You might've seen my replies and other Ariya news earlier if you hadn't already been doing that.

Thanks, I appreciate a tip on how to use a system, but with the proliferation of discussion in many different places, I don't usually try to keep up. I just participate in a thread here or there and generally try to discuss EVs on a more generic board that isn't specific to a given model. However, I know from the old days that sometimes good discussions are to be had here at MNL.

In this case yes, the Ariya threads sound interesting, but there is no rule (as far as I know) against duplicating a point if it seems relevant to another thread. To me, it seems more of use to have the information here in this thread, so we can understand that's the direction Nissan has chosen to go. That is why I did not pre-research it in order to post on the matter here. Also, I guess I'm just lazy in some ways.

In any case, my point, for purposes of the 62 kWh battery topic, was, and is, that while some have evidently subscribed to the school of thought to just kind of refrain from having expectations of Nissan around battery size, rapidgate, and cooling, it seems (to me) worth noting, here in this thread, after all of this discussion, that Nissan has ultimately (evidently) decided indeed to move on to liquid cooling and bigger batteries. Maybe it's already been noted earlier in the thread, I don't know. I have always found it a bit time-consuming to try to research such things.

 

[cwerdna]

In this case yes, the Ariya threads sound interesting, but there is no rule (as far as I know) against duplicating a point if it seems relevant to another thread. To me, it seems more of use to have the information here in this thread, so we can understand that's the direction Nissan has chosen to go.
...
In any case, my point, for purposes of the 62 kWh battery topic, was, and is, that while some have evidently subscribed to the school of thought to just kind of refrain from having expectations of Nissan around battery size, rapidgate, and cooling, it seems (to me) worth noting, here in this thread, after all of this discussion, that Nissan has ultimately (evidently) decided indeed to move on to liquid cooling and bigger batteries. Maybe it's already been noted earlier in the thread, I don't know.

No worries.

Well, there's been rampant speculation, rumor (or just wants/wishful thinking becoming rumors) that there'd be battery thermal management on Leafs but, obviously, it still hasn't become reality. It didn't help that people/other media kept echoing https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-sees-leaf-competition/ claims as if they were true. The slide at the beginning was definitely fact as I was present at the EVent where a Nissan corporate rep put it up and I think Push EV's just stole someone's pic.

It was a pleasant surprise to hear during the Ariya reveal that they went with a water-cooled battery.

 

[jlsoaz]

[...]

It was a pleasant surprise to hear during the Ariya reveal that they went with a water-cooled battery.

Agree. There's definitely an element here for me of noting permanently how long it has taken Nissan to come around and compete at a higher level of vehicle capability, including larger more durable batteries, but there is also an element here of "better late than never". Now, if they will please bring some sense of increased urgency and quickness about bringing their best stuff to market.

I do hope they have safety (thermal runaway) concerns addressed to their satisfaction.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Indeed. It is so unfortunate that Nissan has squandered their lead and they seem really slow moving in the EV space vs. their competitors.

 

[Learjet]

^^^
Indeed. It is so unfortunate that Nissan has squandered their lead and they seem really slow moving in the EV space vs. their competitors.

I guess you could say....This is the result of failed leadership at Nissan and lack of investment in R&D?

If you know anything about the Nissan Titan with the Cummins....you'll realize how much money and effort was wasted on that project.

 

[jlsoaz]

^^^
Indeed. It is so unfortunate that Nissan has squandered their lead and they seem really slow moving in the EV space vs. their competitors.

I guess you could say....This is the result of failed leadership at Nissan and lack of investment in R&D?

If you know anything about the Nissan Titan with the Cummins....you'll realize how much money and effort was wasted on that project.

I haven't really been aware of that, but I'll check it out. One thing that has been striking to me has been that, in my mind, Infiniti had a hard-fought reputation as offering good innovative luxury vehicles with good performance for discerning buyers. However, Infiniti did not step up and take the risk and offer a good long-range luxury (whether entry-level or higher) BEV competitor. I wonder if any Nissan executives of the past or present would see that decision as a mistake. I wonder if any of those would ever say so in public.

 

[LeftieBiker]

However, Infiniti did not step up and take the risk and offer a good long-range luxury (whether entry-level or higher) BEV competitor. I wonder if any Nissan executives of the past or present would see that decision as a mistake.

They had no long range battery. Think 'Cadillac Cimarron'...

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

They c o uld habe made a 60-70kWh battery 5 years ago for Infiniti, but likely at a loss. Leaf was the same for the first few years. It takes vision.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Well, adjustment #3 is in the books and I am now "around" 93¾% or so @11,180 miles. This is worse than my 40 kwh at the same time (94.77% and 12,133 miles . I was expecting less since overall, the stress on the pack would be less and it's easier keep the SOC in the reasonable range below 65% and the pack is cooler on longer trips but it appears that that hasn't made much difference.

Now my 40 went on to lose 6.89 % in the first year but then lost only .62% the next 9 months before I traded up.