The 62kWh Battery Topic

[Learjet]

So yesterday I drove over 800 miles on the interstate and mountains and desert in hot summer weather. The first fast charge was fine though that was like 6am, the second fast charge seemed OK but I didn't watch or time it very well but I've had some luck with them before. The third fast charger maxed at 19.5kw the batter temp marker hit the first red line, the fourth fast charge the batter went into the read and 55C als 19.5kw max, the 6th was very short.

A guy I know with a Bolt and someone he knows with a KIA do large hundreds of mile trips with less problems.

With the longer EV range and spreading fast charging I think even the plus needs battery cooling, I wish Nissan would do it in a future model. No bumpers or such fall off a LEAF but that lack of battery cooling is still a problem.

I guess you would call this rapid gate?

Good info...but that is not what I bought my Leaf for or how I plan to use it....the Leaf pluses out weight this one negative issue for me. JMHO

 

[salyavin]

road trips like this are not common so I won't likely hit it much but I am disappointed as other EVs can do this the plus is not a happy camper. I'll have to give it a 2 fast charge limit a day I think which will cover the vast majority of driving. Just a little cooling would go a long way.

 

[cwerdna]

So yesterday I drove over 800 miles on the interstate and mountains and desert in hot summer weather. The first fast charge was fine though that was like 6am, the second fast charge seemed OK but I didn't watch or time it very well but I've had some luck with them before. The third fast charger maxed at 19.5kw the batter temp marker hit the first red line, the fourth fast charge the batter went into the read and 55C als 19.5kw max, the 6th was very short.

A guy I know with a Bolt and someone he knows with a KIA do large hundreds of mile trips with less problems.

With the longer EV range and spreading fast charging I think even the plus needs battery cooling, I wish Nissan would do it in a future model. No bumpers or such fall off a LEAF but that lack of battery cooling is still a problem.

I guess you would call this rapid gate?

Yep. As long as Bolt battery is warm enough, if you're below about 55% SoC, you can DC FC up to what the charger can put out, limited by its amperage limits and voltage, which is ~54 or 55 kW at best. The first ramp down is to about 37 kW. You can do this all day long due to Bolt's thermal management. Unfortunately, 55 kW is the max and obviously, Leaf Plus can exceed that given a sufficiently powerful DC FC.

NewsColoumb has plenty of Bolt roadtrip videos as do others. If you skip thru some of the charging stops at https://www.torquenews.com/8861/chevrolet-bolt-ev-set-cannonball-run-record-and-no-one-noticed, you'll see that other than when that guy's hit by battery too cold, he's hitting 54 or 55 kW charging rates when he starts out.

 

[goldbrick]

I'm all for a little cooling like the eNV-2000 has, since it seems to significantly slow battery degradation. But most EV's that are more road-trip capable than a Leaf have full blown thermal management systems, not just a small radiator and fan inside the pack enclosure.

On the other hand, on-line sources have said that the eNV-2000 battery cooling is just to improve T3 charging since it was assumed that the vans would be charged that way more often due to their mostly commercial use. So who knows what Nissan was thinking with the Leaf vs eNV-2000 battery cooling?

Personally, I'm happy with my Leaf being a simple, cheap around-town car. I have no problem using an ICE car if I'm going on a several 1000 mile trip, or if I'm heading into the San Rafael Swell, or driving to Alaska, etc. To take it to an extreme, I don't think EV aircraft are ever going to be practical. If I want to fly somewhere, I'm going to be burning fossil fuels.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Agreed it would be nice if there was at least air cooling for occational longer drives. If we liked the Bolt, we would have gone that route, but just hated the feel and interior.

I am surprised there has not been more aftermarket options to add a little cooling.

Well maybe it all changes tonight with Aryia. I wonder if Leaf for 2021 gets updated (or killed) with that car release.

 

[salyavin]

I have been hearing rumors Ariya has liquid cooling but I heard that for the Leaf + for 2019, and the 40kw LEAF before that and it did not happen. The plus is a lot better and goes a lot farther and is even faster in the 0-60 so the difference is large. Faster charging is nice but with the charging limitations it makes less sense.

I just don't like the Bolt either. The cargo space, other little bits and bobs just don't work for us. We all (family) like the LEAF but the main thing is battery cooling as we experienced yesterday. When people I know driving other brand EVs can do the same thing without a problem it is a bummer. It will also put some people off EVs, most people I talk to want a car to do anything not just run to the grocery store down the street. The technology is here right now, used every day this is not some future tech. I really should spend some time with the Niro.

Regarding airplanes that has a ways to go, very promising things have been happening with small prop air planes. The eCaravan may get us a slightly larger prop we shall see but it is sill a small plane. Reminds me a bit of the Islanders my father in law used to fly. Are you familiar with the Boeing NeXt? We may end up with hybrids like we did with cars for a while. for longer flights and certainly for those large international flights I don't see electric planes for a while likely not in my lifetime.

Really Nissan just needs to cool their battery, this bigger 62kWh batter heats up slower, and for the first charge can charge faster but it still does not compare well with other automakers. Is it really that expensive? I hear some say the LEAF does not need cooling, it's batteries do not catch fire like the Tesla. While the LEAF batteries have not caught fire that I have heard of they still do get hot if you use it like what most other EVs. We have been complaining for years, I can get it for the first gen LEAF but by this point they should add it. Fingers crossed for Ariya.

 

[Astros]

So yesterday I drove over 800 miles on the interstate and mountains and desert in hot summer weather. The first fast charge was fine though that was like 6am, the second fast charge seemed OK but I didn't watch or time it very well but I've had some luck with them before. The third fast charger maxed at 19.5kw the batter temp marker hit the first red line, the fourth fast charge the batter went into the read and 55C als 19.5kw max, the 6th was very short.

I've done about 500 miles in a day with the Leaf+, so I find an 800 mile trip impressive! How long did it take you?

 

[Learjet]

So yesterday I drove over 800 miles on the interstate and mountains and desert in hot summer weather. The first fast charge was fine though that was like 6am, the second fast charge seemed OK but I didn't watch or time it very well but I've had some luck with them before. The third fast charger maxed at 19.5kw the batter temp marker hit the first red line, the fourth fast charge the batter went into the read and 55C als 19.5kw max, the 6th was very short.

I've done about 500 miles in a day with the Leaf+, so I find an 800 mile trip impressive! How long did it take you?

Good point...I've done 800 a day several times towing my RV on the interstate 70 mph with minimal stops...that is a 14 hour day plus charging time....I'm guessing 15+ hours.

 

[salyavin]

Just about 21 hours, so yea quite long.

With a gasser or hybrid I have done over a thousand in about 16 hours (Fort Collins to Texarkana to see grandparents) almost nonstop many times. They are all passed now so I don't go out there any more.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So yesterday I drove over 800 miles on the interstate and mountains and desert in hot summer weather. The first fast charge was fine though that was like 6am, the second fast charge seemed OK but I didn't watch or time it very well but I've had some luck with them before. The third fast charger maxed at 19.5kw the batter temp marker hit the first red line, the fourth fast charge the batter went into the read and 55C als 19.5kw max, the 6th was very short.

A guy I know with a Bolt and someone he knows with a KIA do large hundreds of mile trips with less problems.

With the longer EV range and spreading fast charging I think even the plus needs battery cooling, I wish Nissan would do it in a future model. No bumpers or such fall off a LEAF but that lack of battery cooling is still a problem.

I guess you would call this rapid gate?

800 miles and 6 charge stops? Sure it only took "a" day? TBH, need a lot more details than you provided. Ramming up 6% grades will slow down "any" EV even a Tesla.

I hope to do a Rapidgate test with better data than what I got the last time I did it. I only got to 9 TBs and it slowed down to a rate still higher than 40 kwh max rate but it was Winter and the temps dropped between charges so couldn't build up any heat. Summer in Central WA should fix that issue.

 

[goldbrick]

While I like the simplicity of the Leaf's battery I still wish Nissan had included the cooling in the eNV2000. mux claims that the batteries in the eNV2000 experience much less degradation than comparable Leaf's. That is a small sample size....etc, etc...but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.

Here is an exert that includes what Nissan supposedly said about the cooling system: https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/nissan-e-nv200-electric-van-new-40-kwh-battery-pack/

Interestingly, the battery pack is not exactly the same as the Leaf because Nissan actually includes an active thermal management system in
the e-NV200.

When asked about the reason why it was included in one but not the other, a Nissan executive told Electrek that they saw a greater need for it in the e-NV200 because it is being used as a commercial van and therefore, it is more likely to go through more battery cycles more quickly.

They didn’t think it was worth the cost for the Leaf’s battery pack, which has an air cooling system.

Personally, I would gladly pay the extra $500 or whatever that simple cooling system cost if it halved the rate of SOH loss on my Leaf. And saying the Leaf has 'an air cooling system' really kinds of tells the tale here, IMHO.

 

[Anonymous]

Voting with your wallet is (unfortunately) the only thing that works.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I wonder how much of it has to do with the cool climate of Japan, so really not impacting the cares there?

 

[WetEV]

Personally, I would gladly pay the extra $500 or whatever that simple cooling system cost if it halved the rate of SOH loss on my Leaf. And saying the Leaf has 'an air cooling system' really kinds of tells the tale here, IMHO.

Passive cooling and active cooling will have very little difference is SOH loss in most places in the USA. Not in Death Valley, and similar.

Most of the USA will not gain enough in longer battery life to pay back the cost of active cooling.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I believe it does help though if you are repeatedly rapid charging the car.

It seems like more data is coming out (Bjorn, News Coulomb, etc..) that those that frequently rapid charge are seeing accelerated degradation on their (thermally managed) cars.

I would argue as well for cars in the upper half of the US, Europe, Canada, etc.. the thermal mgmt assistance would almost never kick in for daily driving. Even with the occasional DC charge, I rarely see my battery above half way. Its only on long trips during hot summer days.

Long trips in winter, I rely on DC charging to help keep battery in an efficiency zone.

 

[salyavin]

Yes daily driving, even 1 fast charge in the summer I doubt it would turn on at all exactly as you say . 2nd fast charge is not too bad, never been a problem for me. it is from the 3rd in the summer I see problems and from the 4th it gets scary (farther into the red).

I appreciate all the data the experience those people are gathering on frequent rapid charging of thermally managed cars degrading the battery. So much is guesswork it feels like so a lot of learning going on.

 

[salyavin]

One more thing I'd like to see those people gather data on is how speed of fast charging affects battery life.
50kw vs 100 vs 150 etc
people who fast charge regularly at lower fast charge rates does that make any difference at all?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

There is one line of thought that believes the reason why Bolt batteries appear to be degrading slower than Tesla now is that they have their DC capped at 55.

Bolt batteries are very good. If their EUV is good looking at all, they will have a winner.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Another first today; 6 TBs due to ambient temps. Batt temps all in the 79's. Must have been that extra charging I did this morning. Left home @ 64% SOC.

 

[salyavin]

Here is a guy farther south driving only 55mpg running into the charge problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK0kNKGhLLI