The 62kWh Battery Topic

[danrjones]

Are you refering to 40 packs or 62's or both?

2018's were only 40s. But I think the 62's are following a similar pattern?

After reading all the pages of this thread, I haven't seen any 62's below 90% SOH but I'm sure there are out there by now. Based on the small sample size of stuff I've read, the 62's level off in the low 90's with many owners over 2 years and 30k miles. I'm pretty sure I read that the 40 and 62 packs both use AESC's 4th gen NCM-523 pouch cell chemistry but the BMS are obviously different. I wonder if getting rid of the "sardine can" style modules helps the 62's in some way??

Yes but the 2018's are a year older, so I'd expect them to be a bit further down. Will the 2019 62's be in the upper 80's next year at this time?

I don't know. Does my 87% SOH even really mean anything? I don't know. I'm going to try and sell my 2018 this spring so I may never know.

 

[GerryAZ]

Watchdoc,

You can see statistics from my quarterly full discharge tests by looking at my November 29, 2021 post. The battery still has 93% of its original energy storage capability after 27 months and 38,000 miles of use. The range estimated by the DTE (distance to empty, aka guess-o-meter) display varies a lot, depending upon recent driving conditions. Since the energy storage is 93% of original, range is 93% of original (assuming the same efficiency).

What is your opinion of the most accurate energy measurement? SOH, amp-hours, GIDs - any other measurement?

I believe the most accurate method of energy measurement is charging energy from the wall with a revenue accuracy meter on the input to the EVSE. LEAF Spy reads the "Gid" number, ampere-hours, and SOH from the LBC (lithium battery controller) via the CAN Bus so those are as accurate as you can get without external meters. LEAF Spy calculates kWh from the "Gid" number using the constant multiplier which is selected on the settings page. Therefore, the displayed KWh depends upon that LEAF Spy setting so the multiplier must be considered if comparing values between cars.

If you look at the full discharge tests (comparing later tests to initial test) in the table I posted, there is good correlation between the energy from the wall and the primary quantities (SOH, ampere-hours, and Gids) from the LBC. The DTE (distance to empty or "guess-o-meter") display on the dash varies too much depending upon recent driving conditions to be of any benefit in considering actual range. Based upon the energy from the wall to charge from shutdown (main contactor opening) to full charge, I have no doubt that the actual range of my car is 93% of what it was when new if all other variables are accounted for.

As far as I can tell (based upon observations and measurements on all three LEAF's that I have owned), there is no hidden reserve when the car is new. The LBC allows the battery to charge until the maximum allowable voltage is reached on the highest cell set. It also allows discharge until the minimum allowable voltage is reached on the lowest cell set. These cell voltage minimums and maximums do not change over time, but the cell balance may change so maximum and minimum traction battery pack voltage can vary a little over time. The 62 kWh batteries do charge to slightly higher volts per cell than the 24 kWh batteries.

 

[user 24513]

You can see statistics from my quarterly full discharge tests by looking at my November 29, 2021 post. The battery still has 93% of its original energy storage capability after 27 months and 38,000 miles of use.

Is there a discussion about maximum number of miles driven vs. SOH for the Leaf Plus? I remember seeing older Leafs being used as Uber/ taxis with lots of miles, and with battery bars listed. It woyld be interesting to hear how the larger battery is holding up after 100K miles or more.....

 

[Marktm]

I believe the most accurate method of energy measurement is charging energy from the wall with a revenue accuracy meter on the input to the EVSE.

As far as I can tell (based upon observations and measurements on all three LEAF's that I have owned), there is no hidden reserve when the car is new. The LBC allows the battery to charge until the maximum allowable voltage is reached on the highest cell set. It also allows discharge until the minimum allowable voltage is reached on the lowest cell set. These cell voltage minimums and maximums do not change over time, but the cell balance may change so maximum and minimum traction battery pack voltage can vary a little over time. The 62 kWh batteries do charge to slightly higher volts per cell than the 24 kWh batteries.

Gerry - Appreciate the knowledgeable inputs.
Having experience with three batteries - two in the gen 1 and now my new SV+, I've found that range estimating is a learning experience that is mainly a result of tire pressure, driving habits and driving conditions. I've always believed that amp-hours was the best (available) correlation to the maximum available battery energy level - but not knowing how that's calculated - it's likely your recommendation is more accurate. With my OpenEVSE, the info is available.

Being retired, my driving habits are quite habitual and what I've found is that typical suburban driving with some highway (63 mph) results in 4.1 to 4.4 miles/kWh. A/C has little affect as I always look for shade :mrgreen: . OTOH, pure highway, 100 mile trips that I make frequently are more difficult to estimate range as overall elevation changes and wind speed seem to be the overriding consideration - but results of LeafSpy energy readings stay between 3.8 and 4.2. As far as how far I can go on a full charge - which would be a highway trip for sure - I would not be comfortable planning on charging at more than a 200-220 mile range especially considering a fast charge might be necessary to continue. Range around town is not important to me anymore as I can go a week between 80% charges at home. Most likely, we would take my wife's ICE car on any trip over a few hundred miles anyway.

As my current amp-hours are 97.2% of when new and SOH is 96.5%, I believe my overall range has not significantly changed since newly purchased in May of '21

 

[knightmb]

Finally hit the 92% SOH, my range still hasn't changed, still getting +56 kWh on a full charge. Battery will be coming up on 2 years old in a few months, but so far, doing better than my 2013, which was down to 88% SOH by 2 years, but it was making a noticeable change on that range as the kilowatt hour capacity was also ticking down for a full charge on the 2013.

 

[OldManCan]

Finally hit the 92% SOH, my range still hasn't changed, still getting +56 kWh on a full charge. Battery will be coming up on 2 years old in a few months,

That is remarkable! Does the available to use amount fall below 56kWh as the total capacity drops from 62kWh or do you still continue to get the 56 with less and less kept aside by the BMS? If so your range is as good as day 1 right?

Also, I am envious of your 4mV delta. Was it always like this or did it get this way after some careful reconditioning of the battery pack?

I'm usually seeing 15-17 mV range and sometimes especially when I'm in the low SOC ranges I see 9 or 10 mV. Hope this will improve over time.

 

[knightmb]

Finally hit the 92% SOH, my range still hasn't changed, still getting +56 kWh on a full charge. Battery will be coming up on 2 years old in a few months,

That is remarkable! Does the available to use amount fall below 56kWh as the total capacity drops from 62kWh or do you still continue to get the 56 with less and less kept aside by the BMS? If so your range is as good as day 1 right?

When I bought my 2020, it never would charge the battery with anymore than +56.7 kWh of capacity. Today, it still gets close, looking at my last screenshot using LeafSpy, last time I got 56.4 kWh into the pack when full. In 2020 Nissan was advertising 56 kWh as "usual battery" capacity for the 2020 Leaf so I didn't question it much. I figured it would just drop from that point like it did on my 2013, which only had 21 kWh of usable capacity when brand new for a 24 kWh battery pack. The range was advertised as 215 miles back in 2020. Today, I can still easily beat that if I drive better than 3.8 miles/kWh. As far as advertised range, it has remained at least as high as advertised. To be fair though, I'm not running OEM tires anymore, running Ecopias at a higher PSI. I have also changed out my gear oil with ultra low viscosity oil to give me some efficiency bonuses that let me average out my driving to around 4.2 miles/kWh a month. So my full charge range is closer to 235 miles of "not hypermiling" range if you exclude climate control for very hot/cold days, but my in-city range easily beats +235 miles per charge due to lower speeds and me actually trying to drive efficient and not play stoplight champion. :lol:

From what I've read of others with newer models, they are getting more capacity when doing a 100% charge than I am. So either Nissan is opening up more capacity in the BMS or they have a better battery technology that will allow for more range or longer life of the "advertised" usable capacity. :?

Also, I am envious of your 4mV delta. Was it always like this or did it get this way after some careful reconditioning of the battery pack?

I'm usually seeing 15-17 mV range and sometimes especially when I'm in the low SOC ranges I see 9 or 10 mV. Hope this will improve over time.

I do it once every few months because it takes so long (hours), I run the battery down as far as I can safely driving and then spend the rest of the time with it just sitting in the driveway with the climate control set for some contrary setting (like 90F in winter or 60F in summer) with all the window down to burn off the extra energy. I monitor it with LeafSpy so as it gets close to the 1kWh range of capacity remaining, I lower the power load on the climate control to decrease the drain until I can get it hit shutdown right around 0.4 to 0.5 kWh of capacity remaining. Then immediately plug in the L2 and charge it up to around 25%, stop. Let it sit for a hour, then plug in the L2 again to try and reach a full 100% SOC before using it or if I have no plans to drive it, target around 75% SOC and stop it when close to that.
In the grand scheme of things, the cell balance might only make a difference when the battery is near empty and you are trying to squeeze every last bit out in an emergency, but I do it just to make a routine to check up on the Leaf as there is not much else to do with it other than air pressure for the tires and windshield wiper fluid.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

That is an impressive balancing process you run.

I am curious if in 2020 whether the slightly lowered the max kWh to start (vs 2019 Plus), and only once SOH dropped below 92-93 would you start to see a max capacity change.


Any other 2020s or 2021s out there with same/different experiences?

 

[GerryAZ]

Just to be clear, Leaf Spy reads "Gids", ampere-hours, SOH, and Hx (along with cell and pack voltages) directly from the LBC. Leaf Spy calculates the kWh it displays by multiplying the "Gid" value by the constant chosen in the Leaf Spy settings. Therefore, the kWh displayed will be different if a different constant is chosen. The available settings range from 65 to 80 Wh per "Gid" in the latest version of Leaf Spy Pro. According to Ingineer, early Nissan information defined the integer value we call "Gid" as 80 Wh for each increment. I believe the latest version of Leaf Spy Pro uses 77.5 as the default value, but I always use 80 so I can directly compare my latest information to information from my earlier cars.

My full discharge tests every three months probably perform a balancing function similar to what Knightmb described because I drive the car until the battery is as low as I dare and then run climate control in the driveway until the main contactor opens. I start the L2 charge cycle as soon as I finish recording dash and Leaf Spy data. I record energy from the wall and charging time along with dash and Leaf Spy data after the charge is complete. I did these tests monthly with the 2011 (replacement battery) and 2015, but decided to do every 3 months with the 2019 because of the extra discharging and charging time required for each test.

I have really not noticed a loss of range, but know that the energy stored in the battery during my last test was 93% of the first test so I am quite certain that the actual useable range is 93% of when the car was new (if all other variables are accounted for). I believe I could still get the EPA published range with careful driving (if I had the patience to drive slow and gentle). To add a little perspective to range comparisons/calculations, my 2019 is on the second set of replacement tires and there is a 9.5% difference in efficiency between the worst and best of the three sets of tires (over the life of the tires).

 

[lorenfb]

Just to be clear, Leaf Spy reads "Gids", ampere-hours, SOH, and Hx (along with cell and pack voltages) directly from the LBC. Leaf Spy calculates the kWh it displays by multiplying the "Gid" value by the constant chosen in the Leaf Spy settings. Therefore, the kWh displayed will be different if a different constant is chosen. The available settings range from 65 to 80 Wh per "Gid" in the latest version of Leaf Spy Pro. According to Ingineer, early Nissan information defined the integer value we call "Gid" as 80 Wh for each increment. I believe the latest version of Leaf Spy Pro uses 77.5 as the default value, but I always use 80 so I can directly compare my latest information to information from my earlier cars.

My full discharge tests every three months probably perform a balancing function similar to what Knightmb described because I drive the car until the battery is as low as I dare and then run climate control in the driveway until the main contactor opens. I start the L2 charge cycle as soon as I finish recording dash and Leaf Spy data. I record energy from the wall and charging time along with dash and Leaf Spy data after the charge is complete. I did these tests monthly with the 2011 (replacement battery) and 2015, but decided to do every 3 months with the 2019 because of the extra discharging and charging time required for each test.

I have really not noticed a loss of range, but know that the energy stored in the battery during my last test was 93% of the first test so I am quite certain that the actual useable range is 93% of when the car was new (if all other variables are accounted for). I believe I could still get the EPA published range with careful driving (if I had the patience to drive slow and gentle). To add a little perspective to range comparisons/calculations, my 2019 is on the second set of replacement tires and there is a 9.5% difference in efficiency between the worst and best of the three sets of tires (over the life of the tires).

Gid is an arbitrary nomenclature to reference battery energy in kWh, i.e to commemorate Gary Gid's efforts in reverse engineering
the Leaf's LBC (battery ECU) CAN bus data. Most likely a hex value similar to Ahr was initially read from the CAN which highly correlated
with the Leaf’s battery energy capacity (kWh) when scaled by a constant. This constant was then called a GID. Nowhere in any BEV literature
or Nissan Leaf data, e.g. the Nissan Consult (diagnostic tool), is there a discussion of Gids. Isn't about time that the term Gid be dropped
to avoid confusing new Leaf owners with a non-standard superfluous term? The LeafSpy app does use the terms Ahr & kWh.
Since the term Gid is highly correlated Ahr without the varying scale (65 to 80), why not just use Ahr when evaluating the Leaf’s battery
capacity, which is a standard methodology used when evaluating battery capacities irrespective of battery chemistries?

 

[cwerdna]

Gids don't seem linear. Turbo3 has even mentioned that. I pointed to that at https://mynissanleaf.com:8443/viewtopic.php?p=523862#p523862 along with the caveat of the default of 77.5 watt-hours per gid...

I can't speak to the measuring capacity part but if I'm driving around near the bottom of the pack, I want to know how many gids I have, not some guesstimated kWh (based upon 77.5 Wh/gid which probably isn't right when at low SoC).

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

At the bottom, part of it is how hard you are willing to tease out the remaining watts. I hard accelerator push, could cheat you out of miles of slow driving due to a voltage dip.

 

[watchdoc]

First Leaf Spy capture. Shows 0 miles but it's actually 550. Surprised to see 5 fast charges since the delivery people said they only charged twice. Wondering if I should make any changes to the settings of Leaf Spy Pro. I'm guessing I need to do some sort of balancing but I don't currently have access to a level 2 charger.

 

[Learjet]

First Leaf Spy capture. Shows 0 miles but it's actually 550. Surprised to see 5 fast charges since the delivery people said they only charged twice. Wondering if I should make any changes to the settings of Leaf Spy Pro.

common problem...change the settings in the leafspy...turn on CAN odometer in miles...if I recall correctly

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

175.5 amp hours, nice. How many available kWh in Leafspy?

 

[watchdoc]

175.5 amp hours, nice. How many available kWh in Leafspy?

Just figured out how to swipe thru the screens. Looks like 25.8 kWh. What does that mean?

 

[knightmb]

175.5 amp hours, nice. How many available kWh in Leafspy?

Looks like 61 kWh? (175.48 ah x 350.5 v) :shock:
Is all the real capacity unlocked now?

 

[Triggerhappy007]

Surprised to see 5 fast charges since the delivery people said they only charged twice.

Mine only has 1 QC, must be from factory. They might have charged it twice at the dealer. I noticed some pics from a dealer of the display with 5 miles on the odometer and the charge was around 10%. They must not come from the factory with much charge.

 

[GerryAZ]

I will type it one more time because there is a lot of discussion in this thread comparing battery capacity in kWh (as indicated by Leaf Spy). Those kWh values depend upon the constant that is chosen on the Leaf Spy settings page. I believe the data from the integer value on the CAN bus is called HV BATT LEVEL in the service manuals I have for 2011 and 2015. The integer value from the CAN bus correlates with Wh or kWh with suitable multipliers. It is wrong to suggest that the integer value correlates with Ahr because voltage must be taken into account to compare ampere-hours with watt-hours and the battery voltage varies from full charge to discharge. The HV BATT LEVEL from the CAN bus is not perfectly linear, but it provides a good reference for remaining useable energy.

In regard to the screen images posted by Watchdoc: My 2015 had 1 QC and 4 L1/L2 charges when I picked it up. My 2019 had 1 QC and 6 L1/L2 charges when I picked it up. I did not have a way to read CAN bus information when I purchased the 2011. If your car was at a dealer for a while, they probably plugged it in a few times. Initial readings at 64 miles for my 2019 were:
AHr=175.15
SOH=99.29%
Hx=98.19%
V=376.50

After first full charge at 189 miles:
AHr=174.99
SOH=99.20%
Hx=98.95%
V=399.44
QC=1
L1/L2=7
Integer value from CAN bus=730 (represents HV BATT LEVEL)
730*65=47.45 kWh
730*75=54.75 kWh
730*77.5=56.575 kWh
730*80=58.40 kWh
This shows how much difference the multiplier chosen in Leaf Spy settings can make to the displayed kWh.

 

[watchdoc]

I left the multiplier at its default setting of 77.5.

My car was only built a month ago so it didn't sit around. I'm guessing the delivery guys lied and quick charged it more than they said. It was a 400 mile delivery but these guys were not the brightest bulbs when it came to the Leaf.