The 62kWh Battery Topic

[SageBrush]

Temperature is a factor but doesn't appear to be the main factor.

Woe is Nissan if they have done things that are even worse than temperature related degradation

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

here is an interesting poll, which as it fills we can compare against Leaf SoH.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/2020-sr-getting-402-km.199600/

 

[SageBrush]

here is

The largest database I know of for Model 3, hosted by the Tesla Belgium user group and Troy teslike at
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c3m9wqlxPBo8ziDYVm5cHRzNCHZbtI_2vVhlXksX9Jc/edit#gid=826479810

I filtered for Model 3 that were not the performance version, and removed two entries that were obvious reporting entries since they showed 150% capacity of new. There was a recall of a few cars manufactured late 2018 for reduced battery range due to missing connections. These might be the two outliers in the data, or they could be reporting errors. One should also keep in mind that battery capacity transiently drops with temperature so it is a mistake to point out individual low values as indicative of anything in particular. Just follow the trend.

These data are very similar to those from the group that uses the STATS app. They show an early drop of up to 5% and then very little degradation thereafter.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Temperature is a factor but doesn't appear to be the main factor.

Woe is Nissan if they have done things that are even worse than temperature related degradation

Nissan has been doing it so long, we have learned to look thru the elephant in the room now?

DoD too extreme. Full charges (default) to 98% SOC or more. No custom charge settings... Even if they had GREAT chemistry, their other missteps would be enough to derail the pack.

 

[GerryAZ]

To get this thread back on topic of 62 kWh battery, I will comment briefly regarding some of the recent discussions and post my battery statistics after one year and 19,662 miles of use in Phoenix. As of today, there have been 35 days this year with official high temperatures of 110 F or higher. The previous record was 33 in 2011 before yesterday made 34 and today made 35. Highs are expected to be 110 to 115 for the rest of the week so the records may continue. My experience so far is that the 62 kWh battery is doing better than the 2015 and the 2015 did much better than either the original or replacement battery in the 2011 in my climate.

The selection is limited for those wishing to purchase new EV's in Arizona (which means the selection of used EV's is also limited). As of now, I believe the choices for new purchase/lease are Audi, BMW i3, Bolt, Jaguar, LEAF, and the various Tesla models (also, Mach-E may be available relatively soon). As far as I know, there is no plan for Kia and Hyundai EV's to be sold here.

I have no intention of driving my LEAF on long highway trips because I am usually either riding a motorcycle or driving something capable of towing or off-road driving. Therefore, I have no need for multiple DCQC sessions in a day and the simplicity of the air cooled (passively cooled, if you prefer) battery means I can park for extended time without risk of the A/C compressor running on battery power to cool the battery. I never got a straight answer from Tesla personnel in their Scottsdale showroom about parking for extended time in high ambient temperatures without being plugged in except to say "we don't recommend that" and "the remaining range could drop by up to 20 miles per day that it is parked". I talked to an owner (of an S, I think) who told me that you just need to select some sort of deep sleep mode when you park to avoid excessive vampire power draw, but have been unable to confirm that. From posts in this thread, it sounds like the Bolt may also run its A/C compressor to cool its battery while parked and not plugged in. A Bolt would not fit my needs anyway because I often haul things and it would be too small.

There are only a few things that cause electric motors or drive train gears to make noise. Excess noise from an electric motor is generally caused by bearings beginning to fail. If not addressed, the motor will soon fail so it is good that Tesla was replacing noisy motors before they failed. Gear train noise could be due to contaminated or improper lubricant, abnormal gear tooth wear patterns, misalignment of gears or shafts, or bearings starting to fail. Again, it is good that Tesla was replacing noisy components before they completely failed.

Now for my battery statistics: I define LBW (low battery warning) as the first level warning that pops up on the dash and VLBW (very low battery warning) as when the GOM goes to flashing ---. I define ELBW (extremely low battery warning) as the point when the SOC % display on the dash goes to flashing ---. Turtle is power-limited mode and shutdown is when the main DC power contactor opens. LBW typically happens at 6% SOC and about 108 to 110 "Gids"; VLBW typically happens at 2% SOC and about 80 Gids; ELBW typically happens at about 60 Gids; Turtle varies, but usually around 19 Gids; and Shutdown happens anywhere from 1 to 7 Gids (usually about 6 Gids). The battery in my 2019 has been discharged to shutdown 5 times; ELBW (but not turtle or shutdown) 22 times; VLBW (but not ELBW or lower) 12 times; and LBW (but not lower) 16 times. There have been 7 DCQC and 137 L1/L2 charge cycles for 19,662 miles on the odometer which yields an average of 136.54 miles/charge. The total charging energy so far has been 6,601.44 kWh for an average of 2.98 mi/kWh (wall-to-wheels). I have attached an image file showing data for my 5 full discharge tests. The charging energy for yesterday is 96.95% of the charging energy for the first discharge test. The AHr from yesterday is 95.74% of the first LEAF Spy AHr reading or 96.73% of the AHr reading for the first discharge test. The "Gid" reading from yesterday is 95.62% of the Gid reading after the first full charge or 96.81% of the value for the first discharge test. Therefore, the loss of energy storage capability after one year is minimal regardless of how it is measured.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

To get this thread back on topic of 62 kWh battery, I will comment briefly regarding some of the recent discussions and post my battery statistics after one year and 19,662 miles of use in Phoenix. As of today, there have been 35 days this year with official high temperatures of 110 F or higher. The previous record was 33 in 2011 before yesterday made 34 and today made 35. Highs are expected to be 110 to 115 for the rest of the week so the records may continue. My experience so far is that the 62 kWh battery is doing better than the 2015 and the 2015 did much better than either the original or replacement battery in the 2011 in my climate.

The selection is limited for those wishing to purchase new EV's in Arizona (which means the selection of used EV's is also limited). As of now, I believe the choices for new purchase/lease are Audi, BMW i3, Bolt, Jaguar, LEAF, and the various Tesla models (also, Mach-E may be available relatively soon). As far as I know, there is no plan for Kia and Hyundai EV's to be sold here.

I have no intention of driving my LEAF on long highway trips because I am usually either riding a motorcycle or driving something capable of towing or off-road driving. Therefore, I have no need for multiple DCQC sessions in a day and the simplicity of the air cooled (passively cooled, if you prefer) battery means I can park for extended time without risk of the A/C compressor running on battery power to cool the battery. I never got a straight answer from Tesla personnel in their Scottsdale showroom about parking for extended time in high ambient temperatures without being plugged in except to say "we don't recommend that" and "the remaining range could drop by up to 20 miles per day that it is parked". I talked to an owner (of an S, I think) who told me that you just need to select some sort of deep sleep mode when you park to avoid excessive vampire power draw, but have been unable to confirm that. From posts in this thread, it sounds like the Bolt may also run its A/C compressor to cool its battery while parked and not plugged in. A Bolt would not fit my needs anyway because I often haul things and it would be too small.

There are only a few things that cause electric motors or drive train gears to make noise. Excess noise from an electric motor is generally caused by bearings beginning to fail. If not addressed, the motor will soon fail so it is good that Tesla was replacing noisy motors before they failed. Gear train noise could be due to contaminated or improper lubricant, abnormal gear tooth wear patterns, misalignment of gears or shafts, or bearings starting to fail. Again, it is good that Tesla was replacing noisy components before they completely failed.

Now for my battery statistics: I define LBW (low battery warning) as the first level warning that pops up on the dash and VLBW (very low battery warning) as when the GOM goes to flashing ---. I define ELBW (extremely low battery warning) as the point when the SOC % display on the dash goes to flashing ---. Turtle is power-limited mode and shutdown is when the main DC power contactor opens. LBW typically happens at 6% SOC and about 108 to 110 "Gids"; VLBW typically happens at 2% SOC and about 80 Gids; ELBW typically happens at about 60 Gids; Turtle varies, but usually around 19 Gids; and Shutdown happens anywhere from 1 to 7 Gids (usually about 6 Gids). The battery in my 2019 has been discharged to shutdown 5 times; ELBW (but not turtle or shutdown) 22 times; VLBW (but not ELBW or lower) 12 times; and LBW (but not lower) 16 times. There have been 7 DCQC and 137 L1/L2 charge cycles for 19,662 miles on the odometer which yields an average of 136.54 miles/charge. The total charging energy so far has been 6,601.44 kWh for an average of 2.98 mi/kWh (wall-to-wheels). I have attached an image file showing data for my 5 full discharge tests. The charging energy for yesterday is 96.95% of the charging energy for the first discharge test. The AHr from yesterday is 95.74% of the first LEAF Spy AHr reading or 96.73% of the AHr reading for the first discharge test. The "Gid" reading from yesterday is 95.62% of the Gid reading after the first full charge or 96.81% of the value for the first discharge test. Therefore, the loss of energy storage capability after one year is minimal regardless of how it is measured. LEAF 2019 Battery Information.jpg

Love the detail! Any comment on what moves Hx (either up or down) You are the 4th person beating the curve with a 'lower" Hx all between 102 and 107% Mine is rising slowly, now at 116 and only not charging for a day or so seems to make it go down.

Unfortunately the others with less degradation don't match your charging patterns. One charges a lot like me, half DC, never over 80%, etc. The other 3 live in Canada and GB so cooler climates.

 

[jlsoaz]

[....]
The selection is limited for those wishing to purchase new EV's in Arizona (which means the selection of used EV's is also limited). As of now, I believe the choices for new purchase/lease are Audi, BMW i3, Bolt, Jaguar, LEAF, and the various Tesla models (also, Mach-E may be available relatively soon). As far as I know, there is no plan for Kia and Hyundai EV's to be sold here.

I don't know if VWs and Fiats can be bought here native. I've seen at least one Fiat here, though its short range made for dicey travel in my area. There is also at least one i-MiEV among the Tucson drivers, brought in from California.

You mention riding a motorcycle, so it can perhaps be added that there are some 100+ mile range highway-capable e-motorcycles out there these days (energica, zero, Harley, maybe lightning). I personally don't know how to ride, and although most or all of them seem to eliminate some of the gasoline motorcycle transmission complications, the risk and perhaps other factors have caused me to shy away from learning.

Agree your shoutout on limited selection of used BEVs, and if we insist on a certain level of range, then the selection is even more limited (I would no more or less want a used gen1 i3 with original battery than a used gen1 Leaf with original battery).

As far as I know, there is no plan for Kia and Hyundai EV's to be sold here.

One dealer guesstimated for me (his reading of the tea leaves of what they were seeing from corporate) .... maybe 2022? ....taking into account the expense and labor at the dealer level to get set up and trained to sell/service them..... and this seemed to be statewide. That said, there does seem to be one Kia dealer (up by Phoenix area) selling an occasional very over-priced Niro EV.

Thanks for posting your numbers and comments.

I haven't owned a liquid-cooled BEV, just a liquid-cooled PHEV, and so hadn't realized the level of issue of leaving a liquid-cooled BEV out in a hot parking lot for many hours at a time (leaving any vehicle outside in a hot parking lot is common for many Arizonans, so worth discussing).

On your numbers, I am reminded a bit of the steady ride downward in the numbers I had with a 2012 Leaf and the measurements I took. Followed the rules for the most part, but ended up with 10 bars after 3 years and much lease expense, and retaining a gasoline car for half my miles anyway. A 10 bar 24 kWh leaf is more or less useless (or worse) to me, so I am glad I only leased it rather than buying, though it's the only vehicle I've ever leased and the overall financial losses of the project for me were pretty awful, compared to my pre-Leaf transport status. There were harder-to-quantify aspects of the project that I would throw in as decent silver-linings, to paint a more balanced picture.

Anyway, it's good to get some hard numbers on the Leaf. Do you post them at PIA? Do they still allow for that? Here are my 2012-2015 numbers fwiw (the location on the page is not fully representative)
https://survey.pluginamerica.org/leaf/vehicles.php?order=built
https://survey.pluginamerica.org/leaf/vehicle.php?vid=229

 

[SageBrush]

I will comment briefly regarding some of the recent discussions and post my battery statistics after one year and 19,662 miles of use in Phoenix. As of today, there have been 35 days this year with official high temperatures of 110 F or higher. The previous record was 33 in 2011 before yesterday made 34 and today made 35. Highs are expected to be 110 to 115 for the rest of the week so the records may continue.

Nice report -- thanks.
You have nailed an important point wrt to the LEAF: DCFC and hot climates are a toxic combination

How many months of the year would you estimate the car is at
6 temp bars ?
7 temp bars ?
7+ temp bars ?

 

[SageBrush]

I never got a straight answer from Tesla personnel in their Scottsdale showroom about parking for extended time in high ambient temperatures without being plugged in except to say "we don't recommend that" and "the remaining range could drop by up to 20 miles per day that it is parked".

Vampire drain in my Model 3 has improved considerably since the early days. Now most days I do not see a drop in rated Km at all, but if I track enough days I think it works out to ~ 3 - 6 watts.

The car owner has a choice whether to keep the cabin cool while parked. That is probably what your Tesla store rep was thinking about when he said up to 20 miles range loss a day. Similarly, the car owner has a choice whether to activate 'sentry mode' while parked, meaning active video monitoring. That is also an energy hog, but it is a tap away to turn off and can be controlled from the phone if forgotten. One feature I love in the Tesla is being able to turn on either/or fan or AC remotely a few minutes before I want to use the car. The days of stepping into a miserably hot car are a distant memory, and very little energy is used for the convenience.

I'm not sure of any Tesla automatic control of battery temperature while parked, but it is not controllable by the car owner.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

JerryAZ,

To further Sagebrush's question, I would also be curious to understand how often and for how long the car sits at or above 7 temperature bars.

Here in the midwest, Its usually only with a QC (even on really hot days) that my temp bar budges above the midway point, but in 110F weather, I would imagine 7 or 8 bars is the norm during the day.


As an aside, I accidentally charged to 100% last night on the SV+. GOM showed 278 miles, which I was pretty happy about when burning the first few percent off the car. 5 days until the adjustment.

 

[SageBrush]

I would also be curious to understand how often and for how long the car sits at or above 7 temperature bars.

If the temperature bar calibration has stayed the same as the Gen1 LEAF, 6 bars starts at ~ 80F and ends somewhere after 95F -- 100F

 

[danrjones]

I would also be curious to understand how often and for how long the car sits at or above 7 temperature bars.

If the temperature bar calibration has stayed the same as the Gen1 LEAF, 6 bars starts at ~ 80F and ends somewhere after 95F -- 100F

That sounds about right. Last check my 2018 40 was showing temp smack in the middle (that's 6 bars?) and my actual sensors were 91.6 to 88.4.
I know my vehicle has spent about half the time in 7 bar territory on average for July and Aug.

It lags the outside temp profile a bit, as you would expect. Most mornings it is 6 bars and same with lunch but by afternoon it is 7 bars and that carries well past sundown. If I was truly truly bored I would collect temp readings every hour for a 24 hour period or 48 hour period and chart it out. I'm not that bored though.

 

[jlsoaz]

JerryAZ,

To further Sagebrush's question, I would also be curious to understand how often and for how long the car sits at or above 7 temperature bars.

Here in the midwest, Its usually only with a QC (even on really hot days) that my temp bar budges above the midway point, but in 110F weather, I would imagine 7 or 8 bars is the norm during the day.


As an aside, I accidentally charged to 100% last night on the SV+. GOM showed 278 miles, which I was pretty happy about when burning the first few percent off the car. 5 days until the adjustment.

This is just an old impression, and was never scientific, but my recollection of operating a Leaf in Southern Arizona (though not quite as hot as Jerry's area) was that there was a decent amount of seasonal momentum to the ups and downs of the temperature. That is, as the summer heated up, it would overall raise the number of bars by a bit, and as the winter started to kick in, the number of bars would back off a bit. The temp bars could also additionally adjust up or down a bit depending on very hot or cold day, but I'm just saying I kept in mind there was a certain amount of "thermal momentum" (or some-such) that went into the bars.

 

[SageBrush]

[ I'm just saying I kept in mind there was a certain amount of "thermal momentum" (or some-such) that went into the bars.

Just bars with **really** wide ranges, enough so that two cars that lived at 6 bars could have widely different battery degradation outcomes. Going by Arrhenius, a 20F degree difference could be 1.25 --- 1.5 half lives difference based on the k calculated by others

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Very true...


I judt had a thought. One way i think that Nissan flubbed it was with its cruise control (both basic and pro pilot). Both with take the car into regen while on the highway. This both reduces your overall efficiency and increases heat to the battery. Now i know its frustrating to say don't use cruise control on long drives, but i think that explains some of the efficiency gap seen between this board and some of the reviews on efficiency. Cruise is bad. You want to be neutral or positive power only if st all possible.

Now i love pro pilot for 2 minute periods to assist when drinking or eating, but it isnt as efficient. Guessing autopilot has been tuned for efficiency.

So sadly, this requires an all day test to run the car down from 100/90 to sub 10% 2x times with full dc charges 2x times to see the thermal difference, but thats 7-8 hours of driving. Not sure when i will have time to do that.

 

[GerryAZ]

I like the cruise control the way it is. If I set cruise control, I expect the car to maintain that set speed without deviation unless I disengage it (or it catches up to a slower car while in Pro-pilot mode).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Very true...


I judt had a thought. One way i think that Nissan flubbed it was with its cruise control (both basic and pro pilot). Both with take the car into regen while on the highway. This both reduces your overall efficiency and increases heat to the battery...

Interesting thought and the reason I generally avoid CC. Too bad there wasn't a programmable option that allows an adjustable mph over the set speed. The idea here is allowing a bit faster speed over regen. 3 mph over on relatively flat ground, 5 mph if going thru some rolling hills.

Seems like smart programmers could figure that out easy enough

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

You would think. Its alm those little bits which would not be that hard and change perceptions about the car.

 

[jlsoaz]

[...]
on the Tesla side, i don't do their forums. VERY little value there. In the early days, it was great as everyone was discovering their cars but the level of vitriol there has gotten out of hand. Could be better now but I wouldn't know. Nearly all my Tesla knowledge comes locally or a handful of households that have both.

The reality is Tesla has quality issues. PERIOD. When the main topic is getting a delivery with defects "hardly worth mentioning" you know that that hump under the rug is there for a reason. Look at any other car forums. Never saw so much discussed about errors, scratches, and missing hardware before in my life. But that is really a bump in the road. Call em up, get it fixed, you are golden.

Now does that reflect on them as a car company? Oh course it does but none of that speaks to their technology. Just simply a company playing catch up and pushing change at an unheard of pace in the automotive world.

Now, I know someone who went from a 2014 S85 to 2018 T3 and they say they never noticed any range loss on the S85 but the T3 they say they have a lost a little.

When I asked them how they determined this, they based it on miles remaining at the SC when they go to visit their daughter in OR. IOW, highly scientific. :lol:

I thought this was a not bad summary of some of the issues of finding balanced discussion on certain recent EV topics.

My first real conversations about EVs and batteries were back in the late 90s, on the yahoo finance investment area pertaining to Energy Conversion Devices. This was a cult battery stock (NiMH for the EV1) before Tesla was a gleam in anyone's eye. It was kind of a lively place, and you could learn a lot and meet some good people. I got my first EV ride from one of the generous folks. I was explaining to someone the other day (when we were talking and realized that they also had been on that board around that time) that, in the end, I thought I had learned a lesson or two about how to deal with people who were intolerant and not interested in keeping the focus on congenial productive EV discussion, and I will still claim that, but it was not enough in the end to protect me from some of the nastier points I have run into when trying to discuss Tesla (both the good and the bad). I have to say that some of the worst have been one or two really committed Pro-Tesla Trolls. Such insufferability! I exaggerated when I first wrote this out, but in retrospect, I have really limited myself to one or two such experiences and then walked away. Still, I think it's kind of an interesting phenomenon and the person I was speaking with recognized it as well in their own way. I wonder if some of it is just what happens to (some) people when they get invested.

 

[GRA]

I thought this was a not bad summary of some of the issues of finding balanced discussion on certain recent EV topics.

My first real conversations about EVs and batteries were back in the late 90s, on the yahoo finance investment area pertaining to Energy Conversion Devices. This was a cult battery stock (NiMH for the EV1) before Tesla was a gleam in anyone's eye. It was kind of a lively place, and you could learn a lot and meet some good people. I got my first EV ride from one of the generous folks. I was explaining to someone the other day (when we were talking and realized that they also had been on that board around that time) that, in the end, I thought I had learned a lesson or two about how to deal with people who were intolerant and not interested in keeping the focus on congenial productive EV discussion, and I will still claim that, but it was not enough in the end to protect me from some of the nastier points I have run into when trying to discuss Tesla (both the good and the bad). I have to say that some of the worst have been one or two really committed Pro-Tesla Trolls. Such insufferability! I exaggerated when I first wrote this out, but in retrospect, I have really limited myself to one or two such experiences and then walked away. Still, I think it's kind of an interesting phenomenon and the person I was speaking with recognized it as well in their own way. I wonder if some of it is just what happens to (some) people when they get invested.

Sure. When some men (it's almost always men) have invested a lot of money in a product, many also have invested a lot of their ego in it as well. Thus, any criticism of the product, no matter how objective, is seen as a criticism of their reasoning ability and financial probity, i.e. they made a poor choice that wasted lots of money, and are thus fools. Since they know that can't be right, anyone who does have criticisms must be attacked to show that it's they who are fools, or that they must have nefarious motives for their criticisms.