I don't know how much further the vampire load could have been reduced in this case, given that the overnight temperature was low. The owner needs an estimate of how much energy the battery pack is going to require for a range of temperature minimums. Tesla advises that the car be plugged in as much as possible. It appears the reporter was unaware of this advice, because he never considers rigging a L1 hookup for the night.surfingslovak said:thankyouOB said:
This is very unfortunate, and the behavior was documented in several threads on TMC. Last thing I heard was that Tesla reduced the vampire load when the car is parked overnight, but it's likely still quite large. It's unfortunate that this reporter encountered the problem. They need to fix this, and soon.
Tesla Winter Range - NY Times article
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The loss of range reported overnight is not consistent with the energy required to keep the pack warm. I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation on the TMC thread referenced above. Battery-powered pack conditioning would only account for up to half of the reported loss. I was told that there is a bug with their sleep or deep sleep algorithm, which has been disabled for the time being until a fix is available. It's unclear if the car John Broder drove had this software patch or not. It sounds like it didn't. Additionally, he did not plug the car in overnight, just like you pointed out. Vehicles with a TMS like to be plugged in, especially in extreme weather and temperatures. It's a small price to pay, and an outlet is generally not far away. To contrast this recent experience with the Model S, let me quote what Tom Saxton wrote about his Tesla Roadster a little while ago:tbleakne said:
Click to opentomsax said:
RegGuheert
Well-known member
I guess I will disagree with you here and I will add this to the list of reasons I do not like battery TMS systems. Personally, I prefer not to deal with dragging out the portable EVSE unless I have no other choice. And doing that in the middle of winter in 10F weather in New England would definitely not be something I would want to do. (I don't think I am alone in this sentiment, judging by how few people will actually use the L1 charging plugs at the airport. Instead, those four spots always sit empty, even though they are closest to the terminal.)surfingslovak said:
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
RegGuheert said:
Just the opposite out here in California... it is neither cold, nor do plugins stay unused at the airport.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
what we have is someone unfamiliar with EVs who was advised by Tesla "support" who was apparently unfamiliar with EVs and he ignored opportunities to insure his trip was successful. it is that simple.
i find it hard to believe that anyone with common sense would take the advice of "just use up some more battery if you are concerned about the range" when he inquired about the range drop after spending a cold night in a hotel parking lot UNPLUGGED
a real owner would seek out a hotel that allowed him to plug in. even 120 volts is better than nothing and would have given him an additional 10-12 hours and would have negated the loss from the TMS.
Just as hundreds of people across this nation run out of gas EVERY DAY, EV'ers who are unprepared or simply havent learn to manage their car, will do the same. the fact that its a writer for a major newspaper means that it makes news and I strongly suspect that the writer towards the end took steps to insure "newsworthiness"
what it really boils down to is what the EV'er is willing to do to make the car work. With a Tesla, there is less work to do due to its longer range but there is still some planning, etc. back in the day when gas stations open late at night was rare, my Dad meticulously planned out trips (since he ALWAYS drove all night to avoid traffic) to insure he could get gas, etc. he had it down to a science and did so because that is what was needed to drive at night. our trips generally were from a point on the East Coast to MI where he was from. did the trip every year so it was generally a 10-20 hour drive that he did in one stint.
here, the writer did nothing. ignored everything and realistically set himself up for failure. But most EV'ers are different and i would find it very difficult to believe that any charging point that is available would be left unused unless it was ridiculously expensive...
i find it hard to believe that anyone with common sense would take the advice of "just use up some more battery if you are concerned about the range" when he inquired about the range drop after spending a cold night in a hotel parking lot UNPLUGGED
a real owner would seek out a hotel that allowed him to plug in. even 120 volts is better than nothing and would have given him an additional 10-12 hours and would have negated the loss from the TMS.
Just as hundreds of people across this nation run out of gas EVERY DAY, EV'ers who are unprepared or simply havent learn to manage their car, will do the same. the fact that its a writer for a major newspaper means that it makes news and I strongly suspect that the writer towards the end took steps to insure "newsworthiness"
what it really boils down to is what the EV'er is willing to do to make the car work. With a Tesla, there is less work to do due to its longer range but there is still some planning, etc. back in the day when gas stations open late at night was rare, my Dad meticulously planned out trips (since he ALWAYS drove all night to avoid traffic) to insure he could get gas, etc. he had it down to a science and did so because that is what was needed to drive at night. our trips generally were from a point on the East Coast to MI where he was from. did the trip every year so it was generally a 10-20 hour drive that he did in one stint.
here, the writer did nothing. ignored everything and realistically set himself up for failure. But most EV'ers are different and i would find it very difficult to believe that any charging point that is available would be left unused unless it was ridiculously expensive...
hill
Well-known member
Last trip to Montana, we drove the hybrid SUV Lexus. The sub zero temps caused the mpg's to drop to less than half !!!! I had range anxiety. What oh ever should I do . . . (wringing hands)
:roll:
:roll:
Nubo
Well-known member
Essentially a replay of what Top Gear did with the LEAF, deliberately crafting a scenario where the car would be run flat. At least they don't put on airs of journalistic integrity. Perhaps the Times could drop a piano on the Tesla to make their stance clearer.
Nubo said:
That would be lovely! And would save a Morris Marina!
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
Nubo said:
actually i think nobler intentions simply went wrong here. look at the writer's history. very much pro oil, fracking, etc.
i think Tesla chose him in hopes of "converting" him. should have picked Summer time.
The Model S doesn't appear to heat the battery unless it's actively charging or on.
The significant range loss displayed overnight when the car is subjected to low temperatures is due to the computer estimating range if the pack remains at that same temperature. The Model S's pack is apparently much more sensitive
It appears that the best way to recover from low battery temperature is to plug-in and charge the car so it finishes just before you leave, or to simply start driving.
Discharging the pack will heat it up some and the car will also heat the pack up, too. It appears that the the Model S GOM gets a bit pessimistic when you drive off with a cold pack as you can put on more miles than the GOM indicates with a cold pack.
The significant range loss displayed overnight when the car is subjected to low temperatures is due to the computer estimating range if the pack remains at that same temperature. The Model S's pack is apparently much more sensitive
It appears that the best way to recover from low battery temperature is to plug-in and charge the car so it finishes just before you leave, or to simply start driving.
Discharging the pack will heat it up some and the car will also heat the pack up, too. It appears that the the Model S GOM gets a bit pessimistic when you drive off with a cold pack as you can put on more miles than the GOM indicates with a cold pack.
Elon Musk just posted this tweet:
"NYTimes article about Tesla range in cold is fake. Vehicle logs tell true story that he didn't actually charge to max & took a long detour."
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/301049593385340928" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
"Tesla blog coming soon detailing what actually happened on Broder's NYTimes "range test". Also lining up other journalists to do same drive."
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/301050531923779585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
"Tesla data logging is only turned on with explicit written permission from customers, but after Top Gear BS, we always keep it on for media."
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/301053361157988352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"NYTimes article about Tesla range in cold is fake. Vehicle logs tell true story that he didn't actually charge to max & took a long detour."
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/301049593385340928" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
"Tesla blog coming soon detailing what actually happened on Broder's NYTimes "range test". Also lining up other journalists to do same drive."
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/301050531923779585" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
"Tesla data logging is only turned on with explicit written permission from customers, but after Top Gear BS, we always keep it on for media."
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/301053361157988352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
smkettner
Well-known member
Of course! Journalism is about ratings, not the truth. :roll:
Now maybe the writer and Elon can sit down at a talk show and discuss it
Now maybe the writer and Elon can sit down at a talk show and discuss it
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
we been punked!!
latest tweets from Musk
so who is lying now? :lol:
latest tweets from Musk
so who is lying now? :lol:
thankyouOB
Well-known member
Alric said:
that is fabulous.
thankyouOB
Well-known member
i am eagerly waiting for TESLA to put out something more than those tweets. they are just PR tease without disclosure of the facts to back it up.
i wonder where the "sidetrip" was to? Does Broder have a favorite fried clam shack on the New England coast?
i wonder where the "sidetrip" was to? Does Broder have a favorite fried clam shack on the New England coast?
RegGuheert
Well-known member
No, the L1 charging stations at Dulles are free with paid parking, just like the L2 spots next to them. Believe it: our LEAF is the only EV that I have ever seen connected to L1 at those spots.DaveinOlyWA said:
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
thankyouOB said:
anyone read his related article posted same day where he disses electric in favor of CNG?
i would post but have exceeded my free allowance for the month...
DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
Wow!
From Faux "News", I'd expect this, but I'm blindsided coming from the NYT. Shame.
Bad enough when it sounded like an EV rookie running out of fuel on his first ride.
I hope Tesla holds the Time's feet to the fire and gets some good free PR out of this.
From Faux "News", I'd expect this, but I'm blindsided coming from the NYT. Shame.
Bad enough when it sounded like an EV rookie running out of fuel on his first ride.
I hope Tesla holds the Time's feet to the fire and gets some good free PR out of this.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
DNAinaGoodWay said:Wow!
From Faux "News", I'd expect this, but I'm blindsided coming from the NYT. Shame.
Bad enough when it sounded like an EV rookie running out of fuel on his first ride.
I hope Tesla holds the Time's feet to the fire and gets some good free PR out of this.
i think Tesla's goal was to convert a "Oil, gas and smoke" guy to emission free driving. what they did not plan on was weather and his "sidetrips"
DNAinaGoodWay
Well-known member
DaveinOlyWA said:
Wishful thinking. Like trying to convert an NRA zealot to gun control, Karl Rove to Obama supporter, etc. etc. etc.
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