Tesla Model X

[evnow]

With the Falcons - the question is very simple.

Will it cost them more sales than it will attract.

I don't know the answer to that.

 

[GRA]

Gull wing (Falcon wing? Snort!) doors have been around at least since the Mercedes 300SL in the 1950s, and have often featured on exoticars. IMO they are a bad idea on an SUV. The lack of versatility by eliminating the roof as a stowage space is a mistake, even if I think the average SUV owner is carrying far too much stuff routinely on the exterior of their vehicle. Although you can carry skis and bikes (but not kayaks) on trailer hitch racks at the rear, trailer hitch racks get in the way every time you need to open the rear hatch. They're generally okay for trips where you have a long distance to go to your recreation destination, but not so good for shorter trips where you may be loading and unloading the car more frequently while not needing the skis/bikes etc.

Snowboards and skis should fit in it with the extra room the car has. The only things that won't fit will be kayaks and paddleboards. It would have been stupid for Tesla to design a car around the less than 1% of people who bring their own kayaks to go kayaking.

Snowboards, sure, skis (especially X-C skis) unlikely unless there's almost no one in the car. And people who own or rent take-away kayaks tend to buy cars to suit, usually SUVs or CUVs.

The falconwing doors are a good feature in my opinion and they prevent people from doing stupid stuff with their car. They could have made the 300 mile range battery modular to allow people to store extra stuff in the floor but they didn't because almost no one would use that feature either.

What you guys can't seem to comprehend is that the use of roof rack would take probably a third of your range away. No one would use a roof rack more than once.

I think most of us comprehend it just fine - if it's just me, my road bike or my X-C skis travel in the back of my Forester rather than on an external rack (which is always removed when unneeded). But on the rare occasions when I'm hauling lots of people and gear, the bikes/skis etc. have to go externally. And sea kayaks have to as well; white-water kayaks may or not fit inside. If the stuff has to be carried outside you'll just have to accept the range hit, and you'll need to recharge more frequently.

 

[MrIanB]

How fast are those falcon doors gonna close when you open them in the rain to get the people in the car and close them?

Hope they tested it!!

Ian B

 

[IBELEAF]

They should've made minivan style doors... on second thought, people would complain about them as well.

 

[edatoakrun]

No gullwing or “falcon wing” doors here. Ford’s new B-Max MPV has a unique solution to the problem of getting into a minivan without making a fool of yourself – pillarless sliding doors.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/ford-shows-off-pillarless-sliding-doors-avoids-bird-naming-references/#more-431261" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Roof-rack friendly, and they won't be leaking on the your passengers, after a few years (or sooner) when the seals fail.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

that's a nice solution that achieve the unobstructed opening and it's more practical than Falcon wings... now, if only the car were an EV.

No gullwing or “falcon wing” doors here. Ford’s new B-Max MPV has a unique solution to the problem of getting into a minivan without making a fool of yourself – pillarless sliding doors.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/ford-shows-off-pillarless-sliding-doors-avoids-bird-naming-references/#more-431261" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Roof-rack friendly, and they won't be leaking on the your passengers, after a few years (or sooner) when the seals fail.

 

[DrInnovation]

that's a nice solution that achieve the unobstructed opening and it's more practical than Falcon wings... now, if only the car were an EV.

No gullwing or “falcon wing” doors here. Ford’s new B-Max MPV has a unique solution to the problem of getting into a minivan without making a fool of yourself – pillarless sliding doors.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/ford-shows-off-pillarless-sliding-doors-avoids-bird-naming-references/#more-431261" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Roof-rack friendly, and they won't be leaking on the your passengers, after a few years (or sooner) when the seals fail.

And if only that were available in the US.. (Would be nicest as an affordable EV, or as a EREV at at least a PHEV with AWD).

I had hopes for the Model X, but alas, its not for us normal folks.

 

[GRA]

that's a nice solution that achieve the unobstructed opening and it's more practical than Falcon wings... now, if only the car were an EV.

No gullwing or “falcon wing” doors here. Ford’s new B-Max MPV has a unique solution to the problem of getting into a minivan without making a fool of yourself – pillarless sliding doors.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/02/ford-shows-off-pillarless-sliding-doors-avoids-bird-naming-references/#more-431261" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Roof-rack friendly, and they won't be leaking on the your passengers, after a few years (or sooner) when the seals fail.

The only thing that worries me is that at least from the angle the picture was taken, it appears that the rear edge of the rear door might interfere with bikes on a rear rack.

 

[edatoakrun]

Is this report (original link below, and republished elsewhere) correct, or just FUD? Can "total" discharge occur this easily, in a Tesla roadster (and other BEVs?) and "destroy", not just damage, lithium-ion batteries?

“It’s A Brick” – Tesla Motors’ Devastating Design Problem

Tesla Motors’ lineup of all-electric vehicles — its existing Roadster, almost certainly its impending Model S, and possibly its future Model X — apparently suffer from a severe limitation that can largely destroy the value of the vehicle. If the battery is ever totally discharged, the owner is left with what Tesla describes as a “brick”: a completely immobile vehicle that cannot be started or even pushed down the street. The only known remedy is for the owner to pay Tesla approximately $40,000 to replace the entire battery. Unlike practically every other modern car problem, neither Tesla’s warranty nor typical car insurance policies provide any protection from this major financial loss.

Despite this “brick” scenario having occurred several times already, Tesla has publicly downplayed the severity of battery depletion risk to both existing owners and future buyers. Privately though, Tesla has gone to great lengths to prevent this potentially brand-destroying incident from happening more often, including possibly engaging in GPS tracking of a vehicle without the owner’s knowledge.

How To Brick An Electric Car
A Tesla Roadster that is simply parked without being plugged in will eventually become a “brick”. The parasitic load from the car’s always-on subsystems continually drains the battery and if the battery’s charge is ever totally depleted, it is essentially destroyed. ...

The amount of time it takes an unplugged Tesla to die varies....

If the car is driven to nearly its maximum range and then left unplugged, it could potentially “brick” in about one week.1 Many other scenarios are possible: for example, the car becomes unplugged by accident, or is unwittingly plugged into an extension cord that is defective or too long.

When a Tesla battery does reach total discharge, it cannot be recovered and must be entirely replaced. Unlike a normal car battery, the best-case replacement cost of the Tesla battery is currently at least $32,000, not including labor and taxes that can add thousands more to the cost.

Five Examples And Counting
Of the approximately 2,200 Roadsters sold to date, a regional service manager for Tesla stated he was personally aware of at least five cases of Tesla Roadsters being “bricked” due to battery depletion....

http://theunderstatement.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And:
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=27447" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[palmermd]

I "bricked" a set of lead acid batteries on my home built conversion. Sat too long with parasitic loads while I was away on business. I've since modified the setup to help protect the batteries but it is still possible, it will just take longer. I'm sure Nissan could have the same issue. The computer management system will work to protect the pack by disconnecting the parasitic loads at some point. I'm sure you have heard that carwings and other items stop working after two weeks or so. Even after the main disconnect is opened, some cell chemistries exhibit self discharge, while others do not. I'm not certain the self discharge rate of the chemistry Nissan uses, or how it compares to the Tesla cells. They are both certainly less than my lead acid cells that I bricked.

 

[edatoakrun]

... I'm sure Nissan could have the same issue...

A Nissan Leaf sales specialist was emphatic that their vehicle did not have the discharge problem. The Leaf warranty [Full PDF: Page 9] does however state that the owner must plug in the vehicle within 14 days of reaching zero charge, which does appear to differ from Tesla’s manual that says the owner must do it immediately. [Page 5-2, Column 1: PDF]

http://theunderstatement.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[palmermd]

... I'm sure Nissan could have the same issue...

A Nissan Leaf sales specialist was emphatic that their vehicle did not have the discharge problem. The Leaf warranty [Full PDF: Page 9] does however state that the owner must plug in the vehicle within 14 days of reaching zero charge, which does appear to differ from Tesla’s manual that says the owner must do it immediately. [Page 5-2, Column 1: PDF]

http://theunderstatement.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is why I said could and not will. Good to know that this chemistry does not have self discharge. As that is the only way that this problem could be completely avoided.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Is this report (original link below, and republished elsewhere) correct, or just FUD? Can "total" discharge occur this easily, in a Tesla roadster (and other BEVs?) and "destroy", not just damage, lithium-ion batteries?

The post does not identify the owners, though it gives locations for some of them. We're in the process of tracking down at least one of the owners, and getting comments from Tesla Motors.
For the moment, let's just say that there are always two sides to every story--and that the story as told is missing some important facts.
But we understand that in fact the Tesla owners had been quite clearly informed--and had acknowledged receiving a specific warning about treatment that could lead to bricking.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...sla-roadster-battery-todays-electric-car-meme

To me even this is true, and may happen, is same like driving ICE without oil or ignore that oil level is too low

 

[edatoakrun]

...
To me even this is true, and may happen, is same like driving ICE without oil or ignore that oil level is too low

Yes, except, "total" discharge could occur by a variety of acts by the driver, and/or failures of the EVSE, or its power supply.

It would certainly seem that "idiot-proofing", to make extreme discharge close to impossible, should be a design priority for all BEV manufacturers.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Yes, except, "total" discharge could occur by a variety of acts by the driver, and/or failures of the EVSE, or its power supply.
It would certainly seem that "idiot-proofing", to make extreme discharge close to impossible, should be a design priority for all BEV manufacturers.

Sure, I won't argue with that, but also I won't attempt to keep my Leaf near zero charge at all, not to mention 14 days. Good to know that near zero Leaf still have enough capacity so will not brick for another say 10d, assuming warranty booklet statement is correct

 

[DrInnovation]

All battery chemistries have a self-discharge rate. It may be slow, it may be fast, but entropy always happens!




While one can drive a ICE to death.. the issue here is parking to death. Imaging you drive to the airport to deal with a sick family member. A weekend become a month where you are focused on other issues and forget about it. If you come back and need a jump, that is one thing. If you come back and its a brick and useless that is another. An ice can sit for months/years and all it needs is a new 100 starter battery.

 

[evnow]

While all kinds of imagined scenarios can brick any vehicle, I don't think any of those are likely scenarios.

 

[Nubo]

The issue in a nutshell, as I understand it, is when voltage drops too low there is a chance for a cell to reverse polarity. At that point, problems cascade and charging the pack becomes problematic. Maybe there would be some hope for replacing affected modules rather than the entire pack, but I don't know enough details.

This is one of the reasons for the general public's distrust of batteries. Most rechargeable packs are killed by:

overcharging (electrode and/or electrolyte damage; secondary reactions)
heat (ofen from overcharging)
overdischarge (including cell reversal)

Your average cellphone or laptop often has these problems built-in as the manufacturer strives to maximize run-time out of the box and isn't so worried about blame a year or two later when the pack is dead (buy a new one!).

An EV has more elaborate and sensible cell management and takes pains to stay within the envelope, but is not immune.

I'd agree that this tends to be on the level of "don't run the engine without enough oil".

Maybe the Tesla is more susceptible due to ongoing power demands by the active battery-cooling systems?

 

[JeffN]

An ice can sit for months/years and all it needs is a new 100 starter battery.

Except for having to remove and clean the gas tank and fuel lines etc. when the gasoline goes bad and gells up like it can in a conventional car after a year. I found out the hard way many years ago when I waited too long before selling my old car after buying a new one.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Tesla Says Blogger Sparked ‘Irrational’ Fear With Battery Claim
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ional-fear-with-battery-claim.html?cmpid=yhoo