Should Leafs have an optional larger battery pack

[jkirkebo]

I'd much rather have a quick charging network than have to pay more for batteries. with even a few DC QC's, we'd be golden!

Best answer so far!

I want both. The current Leaf battery is a bit small for long distance driving with QCs, though it is manageable. A larger battery would require fewer QC stations (and fewer stops), more flexibility and faster DC charging.

 

[nosuchthing]

Yodrak, I bought it because it's the only game in town. The problem is, you take it from Marin Co. to SF and back and you come back with 15 miles. It's noon and you're not supposed to even plug it in (the stupid TOU) so all you can do is go to Costco 5 miles away and back. And the car is done for the day because you need at least 4 hrs to get some miles on it. And that's killing me because once we hit summer juice that stands at 50 cents per kW 12-6 pm. Right now - winter juice - it's 20 cents. That's managable, but the summer is around the corner.

Or, Santa Rosa - 35 freeway miles away. Round trip is pretty iffy, and wife is not keen on coming back on electron fumes. You know, it takes nerves of steel and some cold calculation. You wanna make it home before the turtle mode kicks in. Done that twice and it's no fun.

I'd pay anything for extra 15 kW on that car. I love that car. It's the best thing in transportation that ever happened. Oh, and btw, I bought it to commute to work. It was supposed to be a 100-mile car. My job commute is 84 freeway miles. Charged clandestinely at work (paid for the juice though) until the Sutter hospital administrator found out and threw me out, wrote me up, and accused me of pilfering juice (the hospital resources). Ha-ha! After 2 decades on the job I'm a thief now. So, wife and kid drive it now. They want their range comfort zone. One bar won't do.

That's why bigger battery would be sweet, and that stupid 6.6 on top.

 

[EVDrive]

They need to have a 6.6 kWh base on board charger and a 9.9kWh upgraded charger for those that want to pay more. Right now Nissan is trying to catch up with the Ford Focus on L2 charger specs. They need to leapfrog. Imagine upgrading to the 9.9kWh charger and being able to charge from empty to full in 2 hours at L2. That is a game changer and it is easy to deploy L2 stations compared to QC stations. Time is so valuable and the less time we spend waiting for our car to charge the more practical it is to have an EV. Imagine being able to drive 70 miles during the day to get to work and back, plug in for 2 hours at home, then leave with a full battery to go the the big city to see the show. Adding in a faster on board charger is also much cheaper than more batteries.

In addition, Nissan needs to make a profit by selling upgrades over the base model. Some will not want upgrades but those of us who can pay more for better specs will.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Good lord, at $0.50 a KWh, you might as well go solar.

 

[Clippy]

Or, Santa Rosa - 35 freeway miles away. Round trip is pretty iffy, and wife is not keen on coming back on electron fumes. You know, it takes nerves of steel and some cold calculation. You wanna make it home before the turtle mode kicks in. Done that twice and it's no fun.

I'd pay anything for extra 15 kW on that car. I love that car. It's the best thing in transportation that ever happened. Oh, and btw, I bought it to commute to work. It was supposed to be a 100-mile car. My job commute is 84 freeway miles. Charged clandestinely at work (paid for the juice though) until the Sutter hospital administrator found out and threw me out, wrote me up, and accused me of pilfering juice (the hospital resources). Ha-ha! After 2 decades on the job I'm a thief now. So, wife and kid drive it now. They want their range comfort zone. One bar won't do.

That's why bigger battery would be sweet, and that stupid 6.6 on top.

I hear you man, I hear you. Watching your return trip vanish on the Cotati grade would be no fun.

If I sell this car (game called on account of ActiveE), the prospective owner will be required to sign a hold harmless agreement and to be screened by me, you know the way Nissan should have, by you know, telling the truth about how far you can go in the car.

I have this sneaking (and sinking) feeling that Nissan is going to wish it had been a little more, ahem, forthcoming about the affects freeway travel and most particularly temperature have on the effective range of this vehicle.

Nissan may not "care" about those folks that need more range, but sleazy car dealers and not caring can lead to bad things for a company.

 

[EVDrive]

What are you talking about, Nissan made it clear that the Leaf will travel between 50 miles and a 100 plus depending upon speed, outside temperature, heater use etc. We all signed the range disclosure. The car also says it has a 73 mile range on the window sticker. Where is the surprise?

Of course we all wish there was more range, and it may have more range potential but they are not letting us use the whole battery to make sure that it lasts for 8 years under warranty.

I'm still super happy with my leaf. I smile overtime I accelerate. And again everytime I drive past a gas station.

N

Or, Santa Rosa - 35 freeway miles away. Round trip is pretty iffy, and wife is not keen on coming back on electron fumes. You know, it takes nerves of steel and some cold calculation. You wanna make it home before the turtle mode kicks in. Done that twice and it's no fun.

I'd pay anything for extra 15 kW on that car. I love that car. It's the best thing in transportation that ever happened. Oh, and btw, I bought it to commute to work. It was supposed to be a 100-mile car. My job commute is 84 freeway miles. Charged clandestinely at work (paid for the juice though) until the Sutter hospital administrator found out and threw me out, wrote me up, and accused me of pilfering juice (the hospital resources). Ha-ha! After 2 decades on the job I'm a thief now. So, wife and kid drive it now. They want their range comfort zone. One bar won't do.

That's why bigger battery would be sweet, and that stupid 6.6 on top.

I hear you man, I hear you. Watching your return trip vanish on the Cotati grade would be no fun.

If I sell this car (game called on account of ActiveE), the prospective owner will be required to sign a hold harmless agreement and to be screened by me, you know the way Nissan should have, by you know, telling the truth about how far you can go in the car.

I have this sneaking (and sinking) feeling that Nissan is going to wish it had been a little more, ahem, forthcoming about the affects freeway travel and most particularly temperature have on the effective range of this vehicle.

Nissan may not "care" about those folks that need more range, but sleazy car dealers and not caring can lead to bad things for a company.

 

[Clippy]

What are you talking about, Nissan made it clear that the Leaf will travel between 50 miles and a 100 plus depending upon speed, outside temperature, heater use etc. We all signed the range disclosure. The car also says it has a 73 mile range on the window sticker. Where is the surprise?

Then Nissan has nothing to worry about.

 

[jkirkebo]

They need to have a 6.6 kWh base on board charger and a 9.9kWh upgraded charger for those that want to pay more. Right now Nissan is trying to catch up with the Ford Focus on L2 charger specs. They need to leapfrog. Imagine upgrading to the 9.9kWh charger and being able to charge from empty to full in 2 hours at L2. That is a game changer and it is easy to deploy L2 stations compared to QC stations. Time is so valuable and the less time we spend waiting for our car to charge the more practical it is to have an EV. Imagine being able to drive 70 miles during the day to get to work and back, plug in for 2 hours at home, then leave with a full battery to go the the big city to see the show. Adding in a faster on board charger is also much cheaper than more batteries.

I don't think a 9.9kW charger makes much sense. If you want to go above 6.6kW I'd say 16.8kW is the number to spring for as that would make full use of the (few) 70A J1772 charge stations available.

 

[Yodrak]

Yodrak, I bought it because it's the only game in town.

I guess it is if you're limiting the game to an all-electric car. That's your choice to make.

The problem is, you take it from Marin Co. to SF and back and you come back with 15 miles. It's noon and you're not supposed to even plug it in (the stupid TOU) so all you can do is go to Costco 5 miles away and back. And the car is done for the day because you need at least 4 hrs to get some miles on it. And that's killing me because once we hit summer juice that stands at 50 cents per kW 12-6 pm. Right now - winter juice - it's 20 cents. That's managable, but the summer is around the corner.

Problems you knew about, or should have found out about, in advance.

Oh, and btw, I bought it to commute to work. It was supposed to be a 100-mile car. My job commute is 84 freeway miles.

This I can sympathize with, and agree that you were lead astray by the early (and continuing) advertising by Nissan. Perhaps you had already bought the car before independent testing and reporting revealed that in the 'real world' the Leaf was unlikely to go 100 miles except in ideal situations.

Charged clandestinely at work (paid for the juice though) until the Sutter hospital administrator found out and threw me out, wrote me up, and accused me of pilfering juice (the hospital resources). Ha-ha! After 2 decades on the job I'm a thief now.

Yes, you are, if it's not the hospital's policy to make free electricity an employee benefit.

So, wife and kid drive it now. They want their range comfort zone. One bar won't do.
That's why bigger battery would be sweet, and that stupid 6.6 on top.

Oh, I do agree that it would be nice. But it simply doesn't exist at the present time. I'm looking for a Leaf because my commute is 40 or 50 miles, depending my after-work errands. If my commute was the same length as yours I would not consider it, much as I would like to have an all-electric car. I simply would not buy something that did not suit my needs.

Thanks for your reply, it is interesting to know and understand how differen people think about things and make different decisions. People are not all the same, but sometimes we(I) tend to forget that and expect that others have the same thought pattern that we(I) do.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Cost
Weight
Suspension upgrades
Space
Acceleration performance
Etc, etc. etc.

Here is my answer. Build an advanced EV conversion, then you will have your answers. Very few people understand the trade offs in EV design or what impacts efficiency, handling and performance which are are related. Once you build an EV or do a conversion you will see through different glasses. These threads go in circles, no back to talk of adding generators, fans and how holding down the temp button and pushing the horn twice turns of the heater when the fan is on.

 

[Nubo]

I'd much rather have a quick charging network than have to pay more for batteries. with even a few DC QC's, we'd be golden!

Best answer so far!

You guys may change your minds if it turns out that in a couple of years the average QC costs $20. Even if it's only $10 (and I doubt if it will be less than that) you will be paying 20 cents a mile and spending a third of your travel time twiddling your thumbs.

Ray

Not necessarily a problem. Since almost all of my driving needs are already met, I'd be glad to pay $20 for the rare QC to extend the utility of the vehicle. I wouldn't see QC as the answer to a daily commute, however.

 

[curtegg]

Definitely they should have different battery size options! Both smaller (for lower cost) and larger (for us who commute over 100 miles/day). When my motorcycle was in the shop for a week, that 40 minutes of charge time got old fast off the 210 at the Irvine station early in the morning for me (because my stupid work did not allow charging at work). I moved out in the "boonies" so I could afford a house, so I sacrificed with a long commute.

Do it Nissan!

 

[davewill]

... If I sell this car (game called on account of ActiveE), the prospective owner will be required to sign a hold harmless agreement and to be screened by me, you know the way Nissan should have, by you know, telling the truth about how far you can go in the car. ...

Nissan DID make you sign one. It was 3 or 4 pages long and discussed range in GORY detail. I guess it made no impression on you at all.

 

[Ingineer]

I'd pay anything for extra 15 kW on that car. I love that car. It's the best thing in transportation that ever happened. Oh, and btw, I bought it to commute to work. It was supposed to be a 100-mile car. My job commute is 84 freeway miles. Charged clandestinely at work (paid for the juice though) until the Sutter hospital administrator found out and threw me out, wrote me up, and accused me of pilfering juice (the hospital resources). Ha-ha! After 2 decades on the job I'm a thief now. So, wife and kid drive it now. They want their range comfort zone. One bar won't do.

That's why bigger battery would be sweet, and that stupid 6.6 on top.

An auxiliary battery can indeed be added, but it's not cheap! For 10kW we are probably looking at a cost of $10k just for the cells alone, let alone BMS, packaging and all the integration work on the Leaf. Add it all up and we're probably looking at $16k. If we built a larger quantity, say 100 units, we could probably get the cost down to $10k.

I've lost count now of how many people have asked me to build them a range-extension pack. How many have I built though? Zero. Once they hear the cost, that's the end of the conversation.

Even my prototype range extender trailer costs more than a Leaf to build!

Nissan could probably add 10kW for around $8k, but don't expect more capacity without a major redesign. We also won't be seeing any packs with much higher density for at least 5 years I'd say. Yeah, there's stuff in labs, but it takes awhile to commercialize, test, and taking greed off the table.

-Phil

 

[Clippy]

... If I sell this car (game called on account of ActiveE), the prospective owner will be required to sign a hold harmless agreement and to be screened by me, you know the way Nissan should have, by you know, telling the truth about how far you can go in the car. ...

Nissan DID make you sign one. It was 3 or 4 pages long and discussed range in GORY detail. I guess it made no impression on you at all.

No it didn't. I was so carried away with being able to join this fine group of kind, intelligent, open minded folks, like you.

 

[nosuchthing]

Yodrak, as far as that thievery -- you need to read my missive more carefully. I DID PAY for the juice. It took the chief engineer about 3 months to get back to me with the price per kW (11.7 cents). I was not going to underpay or overpay. It came to about 58 cents per day. The hospital would go bankrupt, you know. I've saved that place hundreds of $$ by doing my job to perfection and avoiding waste whenver possible. Even turning off unneeded lights for hours at a time. Model employee, man. I have nothing to prove anymore but spread cheer in the world.

As far as that PG&E 50 cent top tier juice - yes, it's for real. I coudn't belive my eyes. Solar is coming -- in the next 2 years, especially if and when I get another BEV. I am not buying another ICE. It's over, folks. I'm sick and tired of supporting the scum of the Earth turning my hard-earned dollars into petrodollars. Not to mention, repair bills, oil changes and the rest of the ugly picture. So, no hybrids, Volts and plug-in Prii for me. Clean power is in (with solar).

The solar btw is going to be DOW Powerhouse shingles, folks. There will be a huge shakeup in the panel business as soon as DOW rolls it out, which is this year. I already got my t-shirt.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ok; read the posts and we dont need a bigger pack.

the Leaf as it stands right now has a potential market of about 60 million cars in the US alone. a 10% market share means "balls to the wall" production for the next 20 years.

so why would they want to cater to a "niche within a niche" market at huge cost to them?

we cant just "toss a few more" in there. somewhere i read that they contemplated adding enough performance to get a "real world" 100 miles but it was simply too much money. there was no space in the existing design so batteries have to get better and smaller and lighter first.

there was talk that just a 3" change in specs could cost a billion to design which would also include a redesign of the suspension as well.

there will always be more options if you can afford it. i dont consider a car with a bar or a hot tub but you can if you want. they exist, but dont expect it to be an $6,000 option because the bar is $2,000 and the hot tub is $4,000. that is not the way it works. ask me about my $3000 navigation system for my Prius if you have any question about that

besides, the Leaf does not need more range. the Tesla has it covered. but trust me, its a very small market, one i cant even consider.

i know it is easy to whine about "if only this, if only that" well, hate to burst your bubble, but you are whining about the wrong thing. someone mentioned it, and it bears repeating; if you could charge anywhere you wanted it too, how much would you be willing to pay for a 200 mile pack then??

not much i bet. look at the Volt at a few thousand more? it wont sell despite being a great idea because its too much money. if it were the same price as the Leaf, they would not be able to build them fast enough so you honestly think a $45,000 Leaf with a 200 mile range would sell?? i dont

i think we should ask the real question; "Should the Leaf be designed to cover every ones needs?"

well, now! that would be a first.

we don t need to change the Leaf, we need to break the dominance by Big Oil, Big Coal and Big PUD.

 

[Ingineer]

Awesome post Dave!

-Phil

 

[nosuchthing]

And one more thing about that range.

I ordered the car in April 2010 the first day it opened. There just wasn't much info available about the real mileage other than if was around 100 miles. I read everything I could scour on the Internet about the range because I knew 84 freeway miles was gonna be tight. But I did believe I was going to pull it off. It didn't pan out. I still love that car. It's the best thing since sliced bread. Period. I just cannot drive it to work until I can charge nearby. I even asked Walgreens across the street if they're getting L2. City stores (SF) only for now.

By 2020 we're swapping in "1000-mile" battery. No doubt. It just takes time and patience. That's all.

 

[jkirkebo]

ok; read the posts and we dont need a bigger pack.

we cant just "toss a few more" in there. somewhere i read that they contemplated adding enough performance to get a "real world" 100 miles but it was simply too much money. there was no space in the existing design so batteries have to get better and smaller and lighter first.

besides, the Leaf does not need more range. the Tesla has it covered. but trust me, its a very small market, one i cant even consider.

I don't want them to put a bigger pack physically in the car. I want them to offer a physically identical size pack but much larger in capacity when they migrate to the next (NMC) chemistry which supposedly offer a 86% energy density improvement. That would make it possible to sell the currenct Leaf chassis with a 44kWh pack, at roughly the same price as today, in 2015 or so.

Then offer a "classic" sized pack with fewer cells and less weight for a (much) lower price. If techincally feasible, offering a middle sized pack would also make sense. 22-33-44kWh. Everyone can then find their best compromise between range and price.

The Tesla does not support CHAdeMO chargers, so it's unsuitable for long distance travel over here at least. I do not believe they can cover the whole of Europe with their own "superchargers" any time soon.