Should Leafs have an optional larger battery pack

[planet4ever]

I ordered the car in April 2010 the first day it opened. There just wasn't much info available about the real mileage other than if was around 100 miles. I read everything I could scour on the Internet about the range because I knew 84 freeway miles was gonna be tight.

Actually, you didn't order the car in April 2010. No one ordered it until the last day of August that year. The only thing you did on April 20 was to put down a fully refundable $99 to express your interest. As for scouring the internet, you apparently didn't find this forum until December 19, 2010. By then Gudy already had his car, and we knew a lot about range.

Ray

 

[Yodrak]

With that additional explanation, I apologize for the comment. Your original post wasn't clear to me because you wrote that you took the electricity "covertly", and your mention of paying for it was parenthetical. Now I understand the situation a bit better.

Yodrak, as far as that thievery -- you need to read my missive more carefully. I DID PAY for the juice. It took the chief engineer about 3 months to get back to me with the price per kW (11.7 cents).

It would - or its patrons would - if every employee thought like this and took whatever little thing they needed day after day. At least in your case you did make some kind of arrangement to reimburse your employer for what you took, but to expand arrangements for employee personal use of employer resources from 1 to all employees would be unmanagable. You seem to be looking at this from the point of view of 1 person using 1 employer resource, but a business has to establish its policies on the basis of all of its employees and consider each of its resources that employees might want to divert to personal use.

It came to about 58 cents per day. The hospital would go bankrupt, you know.

You are clearly 'da man, deserving of special treatment for service above and beyond the call of duty and your pay grade!

I've saved that place hundreds of $$ by doing my job to perfection and avoiding waste whenver possible. Even turning off unneeded lights for hours at a time. Model employee, man. I have nothing to prove anymore but spread cheer in the world.

 

[EVDRIVER]

ok; read the posts and we dont need a bigger pack.

we cant just "toss a few more" in there. somewhere i read that they contemplated adding enough performance to get a "real world" 100 miles but it was simply too much money. there was no space in the existing design so batteries have to get better and smaller and lighter first.

besides, the Leaf does not need more range. the Tesla has it covered. but trust me, its a very small market, one i cant even consider.

I don't want them to put a bigger pack physically in the car. I want them to offer a physically identical size pack but much larger in capacity when they migrate to the next (NMC) chemistry which supposedly offer a 86% energy density improvement. That would make it possible to sell the currenct Leaf chassis with a 44kWh pack, at roughly the same price as today, in 2015 or so.

Then offer a "classic" sized pack with fewer cells and less weight for a (much) lower price. If techincally feasible, offering a middle sized pack would also make sense. 22-33-44kWh. Everyone can then find their best compromise between range and price.

The Tesla does not support CHAdeMO chargers, so it's unsuitable for long distance travel over here at least. I do not believe they can cover the whole of Europe with their own "superchargers" any time soon.

If they could offer this they would when it is viable and available. On another note, a 44kw pack in the same form factor is not going to happen in a 2015 LEAF model at any price, pack capacity is not going to double in the next 18 months which is what would have to happen for that to make production in a 2015 model. . Tesla has an onboard 19kw charger, not exactly slow.

 

[Nubo]

Is it possible that there is unused room inside the battery modules for more of the "license plate" cells to be added in parallel? Perhaps that would have been one way to allow for future enhancement. Can't tell from this photo

 

[adric22]

Is it possible that there is unused room inside the battery modules for more of the "license plate" cells to be added in parallel? Perhaps that would have been one way to allow for future enhancement. Can't tell from this photo

I seriously doubt it. In most cases they want the battery cells to be under pressure to keep them from expanding when being charged. Even the NiMh cells Toyota uses in the Prius are designed that way. Besides, there are several cells inside each module. So even if you could fit just one extra cell, it would have to go in serial.

 

[Clippy]

I still love that car. It's the best thing since sliced bread. Period. I just cannot drive it to work until I can charge nearby. I even asked Walgreens across the street if they're getting L2. City stores (SF) only for now.

By 2020 we're swapping in "1000-mile" battery. No doubt. It just takes time and patience. That's all.

Yes, unlike a normal car purchase. With the Leaf it was buy it, try it, then see if it fits. In my case too, I LOVE my Leaf, but it just doesn't cut it all the time. I bought it (largely due to that $12,500 Off sign on it) in spite of the use of extreme Weasel Words concerning its range. I mean, really, when someone forces you to sign a document that states:

"There are an infinite number of range scenarios, based on many variables." and "Estimated range is based on specific variables studied through computer simulations." and my personal favorite, "Vehicle range will be reduced by: (1) high speed driving (55+ mph)" <-------Whaaaat!?!

the phrase that comes to mind is not "Go Anywhere Freedom Mobile."

I call it my "Goes 40 miles at you won't get shot freeway speeds on a recommended 80% charge during the winter, but since you're obtuse and a liar you must bow down before the almighty EV Experts who could do 100 miles easy IN YOUR CAR in the same climate WITH a 30 knot head wind mobile."

Even in it's current state, the addition of L3 charging would reduce the desire for extra batteries. I'd still want them, and since there seems to be room for them, let's do it. Ill quit complaining, honest (not likely).

The question comes to mind, could an add-on pack be designed for first adopters, or are the new batteries going to be worth the (audible gasp) cost of a new pack?

 

[Nubo]

Is it possible that there is unused room inside the battery modules for more of the "license plate" cells to be added in parallel? Perhaps that would have been one way to allow for future enhancement. Can't tell from this photo

I seriously doubt it. In most cases they want the battery cells to be under pressure to keep them from expanding when being charged. Even the NiMh cells Toyota uses in the Prius are designed that way. Besides, there are several cells inside each module. So even if you could fit just one extra cell, it would have to go in serial.

Probably right. But maybe some improvements possible in density with improved (thinner) separator materials, allowing more layers per cell, etc...

In fact I think N1ghtrider already has that battery

 

[davewill]

... I don't want them to put a bigger pack physically in the car. I want them to offer a physically identical size pack but much larger in capacity when they migrate to the next (NMC) chemistry which supposedly offer a 86% energy density improvement. That would make it possible to sell the currenct Leaf chassis with a 44kWh pack, at roughly the same price as today, in 2015 or so. ...

Don't hold your breath. If the tech improves, look for them to use the improvements to lighten the vehicle and/or lower the price, not build a 44kWh car.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I don't want them to put a bigger pack physically in the car. I want them to offer a physically identical size pack but much larger in capacity when they migrate to the next (NMC) chemistry which supposedly offer a 86% energy density improvement. That would make it possible to sell the currenct Leaf chassis with a 44kWh pack, at roughly the same price as today, in 2015 or so. ...

Don't hold your breath. If the tech improves, look for them to use the improvements to lighten the vehicle and/or lower the price, not build a 44kWh car.

Exactly what BMW intends to do with the 32/33 kWh pack in the ActiveE; it will get much smaller in the i3.

 

[surfingslovak]

Don't hold your breath. If the tech improves, look for them to use the improvements to lighten the vehicle and/or lower the price, not build a 44kWh car.

+1

It's becoming clear that most manufacturers will target the 100-miles range market, and eye quick charging and a fossil-fueled range extenders. Hopefully, battery tech will improve faster than anticipated. It very well might, if there is enough demand. There is no reason why the car cannot be more aerodynamic however, at least in my mind. That could facilitate 5 or 10 miles higher speeds on the freeway. Not much, I realize, but I found that there is a qualitative difference between going 50 or 55 mph on the freeway.

 

[TimeHorse]

And here I was set to repost my web article but it looks like this thread is just a duplicate of: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=41492#p41492, or at least my take on it is.

I mean, there's no need to carry around 10kW extra if you're only gonna go to Grandma's once a year! But let me rent a 10kW pack, plug it into a port in my trunk and drop it off at my destination like a rental car. Then rent another one to go home. And let the gas station that I bought if from chemically recondition the pack for the next use. I mean, this model doesn't have to be electricly rechargeable. We can do better with non-rechargeable batteries than we can with rechargeable ones. And if they can be chemically 100% recycled and reused, that's perfect! The LEAF needs an Aux port for more battery storage!

Now, as far as what CO2Fre does: on an average weekday, 72+ miles, mostly highway. Leave home with 12 bars, come home with typically 2, sometimes 1 and in a blue moon 3. 80% won't cut it. I have long requested an 80 mi at 80% and in a sense the LEAF does this but not in the way we expect. That 80% is really 100% of the "observable" pack and as such I can see 80 mi range a possibility despite my preferring a more conservative 73 like the EPA.

Now, I live where we got weather, not like you left coast guys. I also have a 2012 with the heated seats and steering wheel. So as it is, I have occasionally pulsed the heater in winter to defrost the windows (and only once used it when I had to do some extra charging on the way to get home because I had to do some extra driving beyond work and back and sitting in that empty dealership with the snow falling I was getting cold so I just took the hit of heater while charging). Anyway, always use ECO (though Neutral always seems to stick when I don't want it so often times it takes 3 clicks to get ECO meaning I miss it sometimes; man I wish that could be the default!!) and yes, I actually get away with Drive 55 on the Capital Beltway and haven't been shot! Not looking forward to the hot, humid D.C. summer though!

And yes, after 4 months of driving I'm in the upper 6k Miles and should be doing my first tire check this month. I rack 'em up! I push the LEAF and get as much as I can out of it. I wish I could charge at work so I could keep the 80% official sweet spot for the pack but that's another issue. 120V is all I ask. Don't tell me that's gonna bust the bank either: how many mini fridges have I seen in this facility each using more energy than an EV would!?

But stone-cold personal observation with hours spent waiting for a supplemental charge (never ran out!) at this dealership or that out of service public EVSE, The LEAF needs a 6.6kW charger!!

• Halve the time spend waiting for enough charge to get home.
• Stop Ford from lording that over you.
• I'm gonna sell my 2012 and get at least a 2013 which Mark Perry said recently will have the 6.6kW option and how much loss is that gonna be?
• The Super-Off Peak TOU window is 4 hours; the current LEAF could charge in 4 hours with a 6.6kW charger
• Setting the timer to coincide with Super-Off Peak is a real pain when it takes 7 hours. I could go on and on about that issue!
• And although my home has a Clipper Creek CS-100 capable of 19kW charging, I really can't see a practical need for anything more than 6.6kW: almost no public EVSEs can do more than 6.6kW anyway, and only the Leviton EvrGreen 160 is ham-fisted down to 3.3kW like the LEAF.
• Carrying around extra batteries I almost never use is gonna reduce my efficiency!

Now the wire gauge used in the 2011/2012 LEAF is insufficient for an upgrade as proven by Ingineer in another thread, which we didn't have confirmation of until recently. And so as the CHAdeMO plug costs $10,000 and I know he's looked at tapping the lines after the plug but IIRC the 6.6kW charger wouldn't fit and either way I think you quoted $7,000 for a basic 6.6kW unit?

IMHO, the LEAF is not perfect. It's great, but it needs improvement. We're not a 240VAC nation like Japan and those of Europe. For us Trickle is half what it is for them and they only made the LEAF charge at a rate defined by what the average international customer has in their home. Talk about not thinking outside of the box. Sure, you can tout how much better Normal is over Trickle here but really, what you call Normal should be what the rest of the world should be calling Trickle and what we all should call normal is 6.6kW because that's what the majority of EVSEs can do!

 

[jkirkebo]

... I don't want them to put a bigger pack physically in the car. I want them to offer a physically identical size pack but much larger in capacity when they migrate to the next (NMC) chemistry which supposedly offer a 86% energy density improvement. That would make it possible to sell the currenct Leaf chassis with a 44kWh pack, at roughly the same price as today, in 2015 or so. ...

Don't hold your breath. If the tech improves, look for them to use the improvements to lighten the vehicle and/or lower the price, not build a 44kWh car.

I don't see why they wouldn't do both. If they want to sell new Leafs to existing owners they have to have something desirable in the new model. I'm not buying another 100-mile model, if that's all that's available, I'll be keeping my current Leaf instead or buy a Tesla Model S. Why leave the 160+ mile market to Tesla alone when a 186 mile pack will fit in the current position ?

Same goes for charger. By offering 6.6kW, those who want it might upgrade to the new model.

Lower price is not neccessary over here, it already costs no more than a basic VW Golf 1.6TDI with no options. Add all the options to make the Golf equal to the Leaf and you're looking at >$15k additional MSRP for the Golf.

Let's do an ICE comparisation. Why offer large, heavy 6-cylinder motors in ICE cars when a 3-cylinder plant will make the car much lighter and cheaper both to buy, run and own ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Phil can chime in on this, but you can t just replace the pack with a bigger one in most cases. there is set chemistry and voltage so more range will mean more modules which literally changes everything.

its like pressing two for Spanish. now, if we could get the density increased, then the actual physical size of the module would shrink and we can resize the modules, put in double and parallel half to half and have the same voltage, but that is a MONUMENTAL change. the BMS, charger, everything has to be set to the voltage and # of modules to monitor.

and that will happen, but not soon and better batteries will mean cheaper entries into EV land. what we really should focus on is changing the mindset of Big Established Money Vendors and go to the new technology.

A Single Month's Oil Bill is enough to put a QC every 50 miles thruout the entire US. ok well lets face it. we dont need them scattered that evenly, so lets put them every 20 miles in and around major population centers and then allow EV momentum to shift the demand away from Oil and to electricity.

the poster who was plugging in at work and was "busted" well , that is just plain wrong. now i work for a massive conglomeration so i know how hard it is to get traction locally especially when my companies headquarters is 3000 miles away.

i put in for a sign for the plug i was using at our old building to say "EV Charge Station" or whatever. had a local guy who was gonna install it free of charge. after 2 years and 11 months of waiting for the go ahead for the sign, the building burned down...

now, i plugged my Zenn in every day. so had no issues with that, but my request got no farther than Portland (regional HQ) on its way to New York... so there is goes. just permission to post a FREE sign.

but that is an example of where we need to go. i personally wouldn't mind 150 "Nissan" Mile range but i dont really need it if its gonna cost me more. what i want is legislation to provide us equal funding that oil is provide which is only about 48-72 Billion in tax sudsidies.

forget coal or natural gas, just oil is good. i look at the plans for the EV Highway Project and how much money they have to work with. its pathetic. but that is the reason why we have this thread. if we already had our 310 DCFC's in place with future funding to install more, i bet we would not care as much about hauling around KW's

after all, i am too old to blame my weight on "Battery Fat"

 

[TimeHorse]

the poster who was plugging in at work and was "busted" well , that is just plain wrong. now i work for a massive conglomeration so i know how hard it is to get traction locally especially when my companies headquarters is 3000 miles away.

You think that's hard, my company is like one of the biggest in the world and the boss man CEO at the top said he wants to see 1,000,000 EVs on the road by 2015 but won't sign a bloody Executive Order to let us charge at work even though given how insanely this particular business is run with a 535 member board of directors and 9 lawyers that can never agree it's about the only real power the CEO has. :roll: And what's more, I know of two board members (Levin & Alexander) that would love to plug their Volt and LEAF in at work.

And it's not as if I'm not willing to pay, but the accounting department is so confused the don't even know where I can send the payment. But if we were to split hairs, with all the mini-fridges taking more kWh per year than my EV ever would, with me asking for electricity what costs 1/4 of the current transit subsidy and achieves half its goal of cleaning the environment being zero-emission and all (in case y'all forgot it being emblazoned across my car frame).

But my approach now is to say screw them and just change the law so that a business can be its own electrical supplier without having to be regulated by the local State Corporation or Public Works Commission. I mean, do that and any business can just set up a side industry where you can be charged to charge. Even the Gas Stations can get in on the action. At least that's what we got in Virginia.

Point being, Dave, count your blessings. Massive conglomeration, phht.

 

[nosuchthing]

Yodrak, you sound like an HR director. If everyone i.e. 100% of employees were doing it (wanting to charge at work), gues what would happen next?

Sutter would have to whip out its wallet and, grudgingly, grumblingly install chargers in 100% of their parking spots! Ha! A sight to see... Yo, and also figure out how to get compensated for the juice.

It's called accomodation. They built parking lots when we stopped commuting on horses and started arriving at work in T-models. We are witnessing a new transportation paradigm and it freaked my poor administrator out. Who's ever heard of it! Plugging into the hospital wall! The gall! The chutzpah! This is why I told this person nothing about what I was doing because I knew the person would put an immediate kibosh to it. My Leafing to work lasted 3 months until someone ratted me out. While it lasted it was the best thing ever. Saved me a lot of money. And gave me an awful case of withdrawal when I had to go back to my good old 92 Accord with 450 thousand miles on it. I love that car too, but it's an ICE.

And btw, I did talk to the engineers and got their blessing before I started plugging in. The juice came to about 11 bucks a month. Paid in full.

 

[Ingineer]

Phil can chime in on this, but you can t just replace the pack with a bigger one in most cases. there is set chemistry and voltage so more range will mean more modules which literally changes everything.

This is the least of the issues! Mainly it is commercialization and extensive testing of a new type. Not gonna happen anytime soon folks! Sorry to say this, but what we have now is well tested and we have it NOW. Roll back 10 years ago when we had NiMh as the best option, or 10 years before that and Ni-Cad, or even 10 years before that with only Lead! Be glad the Lithium Ion is here now and in our garages! You might see slow incremental increase in density and reliability, but sadly, I just don't anticipate a doubling in capacity/half the weight within the next few years.

-Phil

 

[Yodrak]

Understandable. Corporate accounting for a big company can be incredibly complex.

And it's not as if I'm not willing to pay, but the accounting department is so confused the don't even know where I can send the payment.

I here ya! No mini-fridges in the cubes where I work, but a lot of people have electric heaters for winter and fans for summer because the HVAC system can never be set to make everyone comfortable. Just part of the overal facility electric bill, treated as an overhead cost(?), same as for all the juice that every employee's computer and screen use.

EV charging is much easier to think of as an employee perk, a very visible perk both within the company and to the public at large, and a perk for only a very few of the employees.

[But if we were to split hairs, with all the mini-fridges taking more kWh per year than my EV ever would, with me asking for electricity what costs 1/4 of the current transit subsidy and achieves half its goal of cleaning the environment being zero-emission and all (in case y'all forgot it being emblazoned across my car frame).

 

[Yodrak]

Is that good, bad, or indifferent?

Yodrak, you sound like an HR director.

My company has 9 newly installed charger, one of which is in use for a Volt that the company bought to test and as a public promotional item. Employees with an EV or plug-in hybrid will be allowed to use them, but will have to pay a monthly fee of $7.50 for the priviledge. I may be the first - negotiating with a dealer now that sales have opened up in the last 21.

 

[Nubo]

And btw, I did talk to the engineers and got their blessing before I started plugging in. The juice came to about 11 bucks a month. Paid in full.

So the fellow still accused you of thievery even though you had already made arrangements to pay?

Reminds me of an early job where I was riding my bike to work. Made arrangements with my boss to park in a large unoccupied equipment room to keep the bike safe and out of the weather. Site manager eventually found out and was livid. Explaining the prior arrangement only reduced his color from purple to dark red. I asked him why he found it so upsetting he exclaimed "What if EVERYBODY did it"!?

I replied that there was plenty of room for everyone's bikes and he'd have a much fitter and healthier workforce not to mention the environmental benefits.

I never was very popular with that fellow.

The real problem is that it was different. We're inured to the problems and requirements of multi-ton machines that belch fumes and carry explosive liquids. Perfectly normal; perfectly respectable.

 

[surfingslovak]

its like pressing two for Spanish. now, if we could get the density increased, then the actual physical size of the module would shrink and we can resize the modules, put in double and parallel half to half and have the same voltage, but that is a MONUMENTAL change. the BMS, charger, everything has to be set to the voltage and # of modules to monitor.

Dave, excellent arguments. I don't mean to be the fly on the wall, but here is something to consider. The BMW ActiveE has a pack very similar to the Leaf, down to cell voltages, charging potentials, etc. It's amazing.

I did not have time to fully familiarize myself with all the details yet, but it appears that they are using NMC batteries from SB LiMotive. Individual cells are much larger than what's in the Leaf. If my calculations are correct, each cell is rated at 45Ah, versus 33.3Ah in the Leaf. As a result, the pack has about 35% more capacity. Although it's a field trial, these batteries are coming to garages and owners near you.

As Phil already said, the improvements we can expect will be evolutionary, not revolutionary. I would not discount them either. 30% more range is something a number of people would be interested in, including myself. Unfortunately, in this particular case, the car does not have the efficiency to provide you the full benefits of a larger pack. And before you say that it's due to larger pack weight, let me just mention that the devil is in the detail. Yes, a heavier pack will impact energy economy, but perhaps that can be compensated with other design and equipment changes.