San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

[wsbca]

Wow, that's a lot of info wsbca.

Is this all finalized, or still in flux? I was hoping to keep my DR rate plan. Are you saying that EV Project mandates otherwise?

It seems finalized(ish) - SDG&E controls the 1000 EV project home chargers for San Diego by way of their approved application to put them all, randomly, on the 3 experimental tariffs, and I have been told in no uncertain terms that this will be done with a second meter (TOU), downstream of your main (analog, in my case) meter (from which the second meter usage will be unwound in the billing process), then the second meter usage will be billed using the experimental TOU tariff. No mechanism by which we can use our generated excess to offset that bill. So we can stay on DR for our houses, but the EVSE has to be on the experimental tariff. I do not believe that this is in the spirit of the EV Project as a whole, but it seems to be the reality for San Diego. I think they are mistaken in thinking that PV households (whether current, or planning to go that way soon) will be such an insignificant minority, and it's unfortunate that they can't accommodate it and still do a valid rate experiment. I definitely feel like I'm being penalized for doing exactly what the EV Project, the Leaf, and the push for clean energy that relieves pressure on the grid are trying to promote. Sure, the free charger and L3 port are a big perk, but the Project should be designed such that all types of prospective EV users can participate on an equal basis (relative to their existing energy choices), and that's not the case. Specifically, the fact that the random assignment can so significantly impact your costs exclusive of any behavior choices is not right... You and I could both behave exactly the same (making the optimal choice of charging at super-off-peak) and generate the same surplus from our PV, and drive the exact same miles etc. and one of us could end up paying $500 more out of pocket over the 2 year life of the project (or will deprive the project of data by charging on level 1 as much as they can). Not a particularly good experiment, for us. If PV users are in such a small minority, they should put us on a different protocol, one that might get them some useful info...and if we're not such a small minority, then they should adjust the experiment accordingly - eg. assign all PV users to the large-gap tariff and then analyze that data accordingly. I'm as concerned about the impact this might have on people who are still considering PV to go with their new Leaf as I am about those of us who have already bitten the bullet.

I recommend that you and anyone else caught in the PV catch-22 at least have a chat with SDG&E (you can initiate contact via [email protected]) and/or with the regional EV Project coordinator and let them know your feelings, so they know we are out here.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

First, a small correction: I see repeated mention of an L3 port or L3 charger. Not so. Our home charger will be L2, unless you have a very unusual home.

With all this rate gaming and second-meter, I may opt out of EV Project altogether. My employer is expected to install (free) chargers, and I am fine charging at L1 from standard 110v. I'm not in any hurry, and don't expect to put on more than 50 miles a day, at most.

I really have no idea where they would install a second meter. The homes here all have "load centers", integrated meter+service panel, with rather inflexible bus-bar to the breaker panel. There's no physical room for a second exterior meter. That's going to cost more to install than a subpanel. This isn't a second phone line.

If they want to know how much power our cars are using, when they are charging, and so on, why not just get that from the Blink charger itself via WiFi, as we agreed to in EV Project? The second meter seems totally redundant, and easily gamed. If I want to charge during the day (peak), I'll just use the L1 cord. If the night power on the L2 charger is cheaper than the standard rate power, then folks will use it to power other loads. If day power is expensive on the L2 meter, then why not attach my PV inverter there during the day? The whole thing is whack.

It all comes down to rate. For any of this to be attractive, they either have to offer super-off-peak pricing that is lower than baseline DR, or they have to allow PV credit during the day at the higher peak rate. If neither of those is true, I'm out.

 

[wsbca]

First, a small correction: I see repeated mention of an L3 port or L3 charger. Not so. Our home charger will be L2, unless you have a very unusual home

The L3 port I'm referring to is the one on the car, included "free" in EV project cars to allow them (us) to charge at the L3 DC stations that will be deployed in the region as part of the project. It's a $700 option on the SL model otherwise, but is included in the "SL Etec" model that project participants order. If fast charging out in the world is something you might ever want or need, it may make the 2 years of rate shenanigans more palatable.

 

[sdbonez]

I recommend that you and anyone else caught in the PV catch-22 at least have a chat with SDG&E (you can initiate contact via [email protected]) and/or with the regional EV Project coordinator and let them know your feelings, so they know we are out here.

Two quick notes. Wsbca, note that I realized my research actually came *after* my post/your response. Didn't want anyone to think I was information-hording - so apologies for that

And a second note - I just passed on the 'PV catch-22' info straight to ECOtality today. I don't believe the person I spoke with was aware of the issue but did seem genuinely concerned about it 'not making sense' in the grander scheme of things. While I didn't ask for any particular follow-up, I suspect the information will pass on. SDG&E's next on the list - they're definitely the ones more in control of this issue in my mind. Thanks for the contact point.

-Mike

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Oh I see. Right you are. Forgot about the free port, but I thought it was by area and not specific EV Project participation.

 

[garygid]

In Orange County, I am north if the SD EVPoj area, and south of the LA area, but intend to DC-QC in both areas.

However, with PV and net metering, I would sure like a way to benefit by e-fueling at night.

On the DR net-metering, charging anytime is the same cost.

Since the SDG&E cost of power (excluding the possibly-HUGE "distribution" charges) is basically a constant 8.9¢, I think one only gets credit for the monthly over-production e-cost, and, for monthly under-production, pays the WHOLE (e + d) cost.

 

[garygid]

The SDG&E Tariffs that you link to do not make sense because
they are only the d-cost (that for distribution, etc.), and do not
include the cost of the "commodity", the actual electricity.

For "Total Electric Rates", you must see:
http://www.sdge.com/customer/rates/totalRates.shtml

and for DR-SES see:
http://www.sdge.com/documents/customer/totalrates/9-1-2010/schedule_dr-ses.pdf

Since I overproduce most months now, and might be in DR tier 1 or 2 when
charging, the DR total rates are still likely to be less than the DR-SES rates.

 

[sdbonez]

In Orange County, I am north if the SD EVPoj area, and south of the LA area, but intend to DC-QC in both areas.

However, with PV and net metering, I would sure like a way to benefit by e-fueling at night.

On the DR net-metering, charging anytime is the same cost.

Since the SDG&E cost of power (excluding the possibly-HUGE "distribution" charges) is basically a constant 8.9¢, I think one only gets credit for the monthly over-production e-cost, and, for monthly under-production, pays the WHOLE (e + d) cost.

If you're in OC, are you on SDG&E or SCE? SCE maintains their TOU info here: http://www.sce.com/residential/rates/electric-vehicles.htm if that helps...

 

[garygid]

I am one block south of the northern SDG&E border, so on SDG&E.

 

[sdbonez]

I think I’ve come to a different conclusion then my original one regarding my PV. Net, I think I’ll save money with a second meter despite my PV. My basic comparison goes like this (just using the current TOTAL summer rates for all schedules – everything in $/kWh) – I have a home PV system on DR now...and using the 'total rates' for all schedules from: http://sdge.com/customer/rates/totalRates.shtml

If I had one meter (DR for the PV/Home and the EV), I'd be paying this to charge the EV (mostly in Tier1 now due to the PV, the EV would push me into Tier2 but rarely Tier3... but I listed it for others):
• Tier1 - 0.13412
• Tier2 - 0.15489
• Tier3 - 0.28201

If I have two meters (DR for the PV/Home, EV-TOU/EV-TOU2/EV-TOU3 for the EV), I'd stay almost complete in Tier1 w/the PV/Home and pay for the EV as follows)
• Format: EV-TOU/EV-TOU2/EV-TOU3
• On-Peak: 0.26833/0.26830/0.26830
• Off-Peak: 0.16566/0.16567/0.16562
• Super-Off-Peak: 0.14060/0.14060/0.14053

Bottom line: Charging in Super-Off-Peak on a second meter, while more expensive than a DR Tier 1 rate, is likely to keep me out of Tier2 territory w/my PV/Home and hence is going to be *slightly cheaper*. The trick is that Super-Off Peak only runs from 12am-5am each day… With my Leaf, I’ll drive 50 miles/day which means I should be able to re-charge within the Super-Off-Peak window each night (3.3kW max with a Level2-low charger for just under 4 hours). If I only charge every other night, I’m looking at dipping into Off-Peak slightly at a slightly-higher-than-DR/Tier2-rate though I doubt the benefit on battery longevity outweighs the higher cost.

..if my math/rates are correct as above, that is… and if I don’t charge somewhere else..

-Mike

 

[sdbonez]

..and it appears I'm now correcting myself... since the rates currently listed on SDG&E's site are apparently _not_ the rates for the Etec project (which are here: http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PUBLISHED/FINAL_RESOLUTION/119984.htm)

super-off-peak may be a wash (even cheaper?)

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Of course, you can only get Super Off Peak rates for five hours (midnight to 5AM).

If your car takes longer than that to top off, you're looking at more.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

It looks more and more like the three EPEV rates are really One Suckful, and Two Decent, unless you plan to charge during Peak times. That would be madness, or desperate needs.

With 100mi range, I can't see ever starting a charge before midnight. I don't plan to run down to zero either, so I should be able to fit all my charging into five hours a night. Hopefully. I really hope the 3.3kW draw is most of the charge, and not some early transition from constant-current to constant-voltage.

So, the only rate I really care about is the Super Off-Peak. So:

EPEV-L: $0.14
EPEV-M: $0.08
EPEV-H: $0.07

These are Total Rates from the E-4334 resolution.

If I get stuck with EPEV-L, then my L2 charger will go totally unused so long as I'm within Baseline allowance, or even up to 130% baseline. The reason is that DR total cost is:
Baseline: $0.14
<= 130%: 0.15

With the added advantage that it can be offset by Solar, and you don't have the midnight-to-5AM restriction any more. At >130% baseline (0.27) even the crappy EPEV-L rate has an advantage.

So here's hoping for EPEV-H, eh?

 

[sdbonez]

I'm exactly with you, Groundloop...here's hoping my luck comes through...

 

[garygid]

Are you expecting to use a separate meter for EV, or put the whole house on the experimental rate, expecting the on-peak usage to be very low for some reason?

 

[sdbonez]

Are you expecting to use a separate meter for EV, or put the whole house on the experimental rate, expecting the on-peak usage to be very low for some reason?

For me, I'm planning for the 2nd meter for the EV... my gut still tells me my heavy peak usage during the day would kill me with any kind of TOU rate for the whole house...

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Are you expecting to use a separate meter for EV, or put the whole house on the experimental rate, expecting the on-peak usage to be very low for some reason?

I believe the mandate is to install a second meter to track the EV usage and bill it at the separate rate. (You don't get to put your whole house on EPEV) The house meter stays on DR.

I don't at all know how this works from a wiring standpoint -- will they install a second meter off street mains (pre-meter), or will the put the second meter near the charger and factor the reading out of the main house meter?
Will they simply download the meter data from the Blink charger, via the WiFi connection we are required to provide to EV Project? That seems like the easiest and most direct route, so it's not likely what they will do.

 

[DaveEV]

sdbonez - how many kWh/year is your PV system generating and how many kWh/mo do you use on average? Just asking because if you're saving $301/mo I would have to guess that you exceeded baseline by quite a bit...

 

[wsbca]

I don't at all know how this works from a wiring standpoint -- will they install a second meter off street mains (pre-meter), or will the put the second meter near the charger and factor the reading out of the main house meter?

From what the SDG&E EV manager told me, the second meter will be between the main meter and the EVSE, and the cumulative second meter usage will be subtracted after the fact from the main meter. They can't/won't use data from the BLINK unit.

 

[garygid]

Then, with subtracting out the EV usage, if the Main meter could be Net (tiered) metering or TOU, but the EV meter would need to be TOD, right?

If both are TOD, would they both need the same "peak-period" hour-boundry settings?

Or, do the TOD meters accumulate by each of the 24 hours?

And, if you have PV so you need to run the meter backward, can the TOD meter run backward?

If the Main meter went backward for the month (over-production), do they still charge you for the EV meter's usage?

Is there a monthly surcharge or minimum billing associated with the EV meter?

Lots of un-answered questions that should be CLEARLY explained on SDG&E's web site.