Push for Level 3 chargers providing coolant.

[Mesuge]

The PV power will just pop up over night with the little help of magic wand, one stroke right? Ever seen the PV's industry capacity GW on yearly basis, against the gargantuan energy consumption? It's a joke, and it will remain a joke into the future. That doesn't mean if you live in the appropriate solar irradiation zone and had the cash (+gov. incentives) it's not worthy, to the contrary go for it, and secure ~20 years or more of some energy input. It will work for some and somewhere, that's all..

 

[evnow]

The PV power will just pop up over night with the little help of magic wand, one stroke right?

If we can magically get enough EVs overnight to affect the grid, why not PVs ?

 

[garygid]

Pop-up cooling plate to "contact" the bottom of the "almost-standard" battery box, good imaginative idea.
Large area for heat transfer, if the conduction is sufficient and the contact is managed well enough.

Would the bottom of the box have fins for cooling while driving?
Perhaps not, for those hot days driving over even hotter pavement. Then, the bottom might need to be insulated?

Including non-toxic type battery cells in the cabin "environment" for heating and cooling is a more likely solution for driving, and the cabin cooling can run on "high" and "shore power" while charging. Include "recirculate" and using outside air when appropriate ... cold outside cools when fast charging in the winter.

 

[evnow]

For people who want to know more about charging infrastructure & grid read the first pdf below.

Edit : Here are two more documents that are required reading for everyone interested in EVs, from http://www.electrificationcoalition.org/

Roadmap : http://www.electrificationcoalition.org/electrification-roadmap.php

Economic Impatc : http://www.electrificationcoalition.org/media/EC_ImpactReport.pdf

 

[garygid]

Wind and PV power will certainly grow to be significant.

What are the best-thinking long-term solutions to fill in the (possibly huge) gaps?

One possibility is designing and learning to live to depend upon and use energy much more optionally (and sparingly).
Learn to do the laundey on sunny (or windy) days, and not expect to do the laundry "anytime".

Or, possibly reducing the population substantially would help?

If there is no soution available "inside the box", perhaps it is time to think "outside" the box?

 

[KarenRei]

Why this almost maniacal focus on replacing "gas cars" with friendly greenish EVs if we only fast charge here and there, 300-1000mi range?

"Only"? Now why would that happen? If you can still charge in your garage overnight, why would you go out of the way and pay a premium to use a fast charger?

The only difference would be that the general public would be able to go on their long trips in EVs. Long trips being proportionally rare, most charging would still be done at night in the garage.

And, for the record, there's no reason why utilities can't require that rapid chargers over a certain power rating come with a battery buffer. When your charger costs $125k**, will having three or so used EV batteries as a buffer (purchased for perhaps $2-3k each) really break your budget?

Lastly, do you not want EVs to replace gasoline cars? That's not going to happen if they stay confined to a hundred miles or two from the garage. Counting on the general public to quickly change its attitudes about driving in order to adopt a radical new tech is extremely unrealistic, judging from history.

** That may sound like a lot, but then again, consider that a standard 8-pump gas station, as a whole, may cost $1m or so in a good location. And the fuel and human involvement in the process of running a gas station are way more expensive.

 

[evnow]

Wind and PV power will certainly grow to be significant.

What are the best-thinking long-term solutions to fill in the (possibly huge) gaps?

My preference would be
- PV 20%
- Wind 20%
- Hydro etc 10%
- Nuclear 50% (replace all coal with nukes)
- NG existing plants for leveling

We need to get moving on LFTR and other gen 4 nuke technologies.

 

[AndyH]

Re, aluminum plates between cells: yes, that's passive cooling, and it helps. But not *that* much. Remember that heat flow through a wire (yeah, this is an irregular shape, but the same thing applies) is proportional to its diameter. So a thin plate doesn't help much.

But might help enough if the cell is operated within bounds where it doesn't need much in the way of heat transfer, right?

As for older cells versus newer cells: yes, you can get cells that heat less than others. But you have to pay for that. For example, the new A123 prismatic cells are a piece of beauty -- barely any heating at incredible currents -- able to tolerate up to, what, 30C? Something insane like that. But they're, what, $1.50/Wh, something along those lines? You get what you pay for.

I agree completely - so the real reason for auto manufacturers looking LiMn in general and at low-performance (2C) cells from Valence and others is pack price. Price is what pushes Ford Ranger EV and Chevy S10 owners toward HiPower and Thunder Sky rather than A123. But there are prices to pay either way. One can install NiMH to get the 100,000 mile pack life, but they pay for it in additional climate control complexity and lower efficiency. And they'll need larger cables on the level III chargers to feed the battery and climate control system.

Re, your sample Thundersky pack at 1.5C: that's a 40 minute charge. Hardly something that'll replace gasoline cars. Do you think the average American will wait 40 minutes for a recharge? 8 times faster, and you might have something.

Really? Don't tell me - I've been running a LiFePO4-powered motorcycle for the past year and I've not only moved 90% of my driving to the EV but at best have a 4-5 hour recharge from a 120V plug. I'm tickled to death that the leaf will triple my real-world range and will take less time to recharge.

And certainly don't tell the Ford Ranger EV owners that have pulled the 2000 lbs of lead-acid, installed the least expensive LiFePO4 they can find in a completely sealed steel box, and are happy not only with increasing the range from 50 miles on a good day to 100 miles but are also enjoying the 'sports car' performance that comes from the 800lb weight loss.

And as for your "cools during charging" comment, you're still talking about lone cells.

Ok. I won't reference the DOE report that shows the early charge phase to be ENDOthermic, then. My mistake...

Garygid made some good comments above. Cells on the inside have to have their heat flow out through either whatever cooling system you provide or out *through other cells* which are also heating. So you're continually compounding the heating problem the bigger you make your pack, and the way to counter this is with cooling.

Yes he did. As did you when you pointed out that we want to pack the cells as closely as we can. But what you both apparently did not do is actually look at the Insight thermal analysis report, the details of the LiFePO4 pack which is significantly larger, and realize that while both packs are made from cylindrical cells, both are using air cooling, and both have plastic spacers between cells, that the LiFePO4 pack needs ZERO cooling in use (it actually needs more heat - especially in the winter).

A couple final comments: one, you can build a pack that lets the inner cells overheat during a rapid charge just fine. What you won't get is *longevity* out of such a pack. And lastly, a number of manufacturers have already discussed these problems. It's a known issue. It's preventing some manufacturers from even hitting the bare minimum of "rapid charging" (~40-50kW), let alone something that could actually compete with gasoline (~250-400kW).

I guess I can see this if one is totally fixated on the absolute fastest recharge. I would think it would be better to consider fast charging needs and management early on in the design cycle so that the product will fit the needs of the operator. I would expect a pack to look more like the Tesla if that were the case.

Nissan's materials seem to suggest that they don't intend the Leaf to be the ultimate long-haul fleet EV but rather a 100 mile range on a good day urban/suburban commuter/soccer mom/grocery getter vehicle. In that service, Level III charging isn't likely to be a significant 'problem'.

I wonder what Ford's Level III concerns are for the Transit?

Have fun today,
Andy

 

[AndyH]

The PV power will just pop up over night with the little help of magic wand, one stroke right? Ever seen the PV's industry capacity GW on yearly basis, against the gargantuan energy consumption? It's a joke, and it will remain a joke into the future. That doesn't mean if you live in the appropriate solar irradiation zone and had the cash (+gov. incentives) it's not worthy, to the contrary go for it, and secure ~20 years or more of some energy input. It will work for some and somewhere, that's all..

Interesting view, Mesuge, and probably not out of line with the 'general public' perception. I agree that it CAN BE a joke - and CAN BE a joke into the future IF we keep doing what we have been into the future. Isn't Einstein's definition of insanity doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result?

The real point is that it's easy to take a significant bite out of energy use without moving into a tarpaper shack. I've done three things in my rented condo that has made a significant reduction in my electric bill - CFLs, installed window AC unit in office, and turn water heater off before my morning shower. Conserve first and the bill goes down... If you care to, review "Sustainable Energy - Without the Hot Air" and report back.

Feel free to share your view of solar with this family in Maine that's under the obviously false impression that they live in an "appropriate solar irradiation zone".

Andy

 

[KarenRei]

But might help enough if the cell is operated within bounds where it doesn't need much in the way of heat transfer, right?

Of course... but unless you have really expensive cells, that wouldn't be rapid charging.

I agree completely - so the real reason for auto manufacturers looking LiMn in general and at low-performance (2C) cells from Valence and others is pack price. Price is what pushes Ford Ranger EV and Chevy S10 owners toward HiPower and Thunder Sky rather than A123. But there are prices to pay either way. One can install NiMH to get the 100,000 mile pack life, but they pay for it in additional climate control complexity and lower efficiency. And they'll need larger cables on the level III chargers to feed the battery and climate control system.

Indeed. My point is that if you want an affordable pack *and* rapid charging, you need coolant. I'm sure that if money was no object, you could make quite the rapid charge pack out of those new A123 cells with nothing more than a pack fan and some aluminum

Re, your sample Thundersky pack at 1.5C: that's a 40 minute charge. Hardly something that'll replace gasoline cars. Do you think the average American will wait 40 minutes for a recharge? 8 times faster, and you might have something.

Really? Don't tell me - I've been running a LiFePO4-powered motorcycle for the past year and I've not only moved 90% of my driving to the EV but at best have a 4-5 hour recharge from a 120V plug. I'm tickled to death that the leaf will triple my real-world range and will take less time to recharge.

Hey, I'm the same way. I have no problem spending more time charging than driving! But we need to accept that people like us are not the general public

And as for your "cools during charging" comment, you're still talking about lone cells.

Ok. I won't reference the DOE report that shows the early charge phase to be ENDOthermic, then. My mistake...[/quote]

Actually, I would be interested in seeing that, but I've never heard of a single cell that can rapid charge and end up cooler overall

I guess I can see this if one is totally fixated on the absolute fastest recharge.

Yep, that'd be me

My ultimate goal is for EVs not to be a novelty. I want them to do nothing less than take over every form of transportation on the planet -- no small order And I have little confidence in human nature when it comes to willingly giving up a convenience, even if it gains you other conveniences, because the convenience you're familiar with is much more comforting than the one you're not. I mean, if human nature was like that, everyone who likes to read would own a Kindle by now.

In short, I strongly feel that with good hardware and software, EVs will fairly quickly accelerate through the single-digits share of global auto sales, but remain there or in the low double digits unless truly rapid charge (hundreds of kW) becomes a common option.

I would think it would be better to consider fast charging needs and management early on in the design cycle so that the product will fit the needs of the operator. I would expect a pack to look more like the Tesla if that were the case.

I don' expect the Leaf to rapid charge beyond 50kW -- at least not the early models. But I want the charging connector to be designed for that. Once a standard is in place and widely used, it's really hard to change. That doesn't meant that all connectors have to have coolant -- simply that the standard provide that they *can*, and that the data pins communicate capabilities appropriately. If they don't do it know, they're going to have to be retrofitting every charger later. Or worse, not retrofitting them, and making every vehicle have to haul around a sufficient cooling system.

 

[Mesuge]

Well, the family in Maine is probably not the best example, check also their "eco" soybean biodiesel car. Speaking of PVs, the price of grid tied system with Pb backup for a couple of overcast days is ~$10/Wh, you need at least 2-4kW to run the equipment, like water pumps, basic tools, kitchen etc., perhaps even more costly PV invertes if you need run 3ph equipment as we do in Europe for tools. Overall not cheap, but doable for some, somewhere. Certainly not a todays solution for ~7bln. and growing or even fraction of the wealthy "North" in the global debate. Besides Maine is perhaps considered as dark outlier from the U.S. perspective, but pretty shiny spot from north european viewpoint. It's all relative hah.

 

[Matthijs]

Well, the family in Maine is probably not the best example, check also their "eco" soybean biodiesel car. Speaking of PVs, the price of grid tied system with Pb backup for a couple of overcast days is ~$10/Wh, you need at least 2-4kW to run the equipment, like water pumps, basic tools, kitchen etc., perhaps even more costly PV invertes if you need run 3ph equipment as we do in Europe for tools. Overall not cheap, but doable for some, somewhere. Certainly not a todays solution for ~7bln. and growing or even fraction of the wealthy "North" in the global debate. Besides Maine is perhaps considered as dark outlier from the U.S. perspective, but pretty shiny spot from north european viewpoint. It's all relative hah.

The world solar market is now putting out 13,6 GWp per year and rising. That's around 13000 soccer fields each year. 60% is being placed in Germany because it has the best feed-in tariff law in the world for PV. In many countries grid-parity is becoming a reality in 2012-2013 and in some countries like Italy and Spain it already the case. So it's cheaper so have panels than to buy from the powerstation. Solar power is no joke! It can replace all power needs of the globe easy. And faster than anything else.

But for me the biggest point of all is that nuclear energy keeps you dependent. Look at France, more than 80% is nuke power and French consumers still pay true the nose. Solar power will make you energy independent and prize fixed for 30 years.

Yesterday was the 24th birthday of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSRC1_OZPIg[/youtube]

 

[AndyH]

My ultimate goal is for EVs not to be a novelty. I want them to do nothing less than take over every form of transportation on the planet -- no small order And I have little confidence in human nature when it comes to willingly giving up a convenience, even if it gains you other conveniences, because the convenience you're familiar with is much more comforting than the one you're not. I mean, if human nature was like that, everyone who likes to read would own a Kindle by now.

Amen!

I'd like to spend some quality time exploring the NREL file servers. In the mean time, there's 'dog and pony' type stuff like this.

They appear to call the 'laminate' or 'pouch type' cell a 'capacitor cell'. Check out the JSR micro thermal reaction to charge and discharge on page 11. They summarize the LG Chem LiMn electrically and thermally on 12 and 13. (The temp curve nicely mimics the info AESC reports for the Nissan/NEC cells.) They've got some nice pack thermal modeling capability - like the cell propagation sequence on page 35. They're doing thermal profiles at 10C and 100C! :shock:

The last few pages list references...Google is our friend. Check out what happens in two packs - one with air gaps and one with thermally conductive foam (page 30). I guess 'cells gone wild' videos won't be hitting late-nite infomercials anytime soon.

Keep having fun,
Andy

 

[AndyH]

Yesterday was the 24th birthday of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster:

Damn. Time flies. Thanks Matthijs!

I review Elena's travelogues when I start thinking that nukes are an option.

Chernobyl Kindergarten

Andy

 

[AndyH]

Well, the family in Maine is probably not the best example, check also their "eco" soybean biodiesel car.

You don't like biodiesel because? Carbon neutral is better than dead dinosaurs any day of the week.

Google 'Sustainable Energy without the hot air' again and take a look. It's a very broad look at energy production and consumption - without emotion or political garbage. The gent that wrote the book is a professor in the Department of Physics at the University of Cambridge and the view is very, very Euro-centric. (The author does mention the US and Canada a couple of times - feel free to ignore those parts, or giggle along when he uses the US reference as an example of what not to do...!)

Where are you from, Mesuge?

Andy

 

[evnow]

You don't like biodiesel because? Carbon neutral is better than dead dinosaurs any day of the week.

While in small quantities biodiesel may be ok - if scaled up it will cause havoc. Just like fossil fuels.

 

[AndyH]

You don't like biodiesel because? Carbon neutral is better than dead dinosaurs any day of the week.

While in small quantities biodiesel may be ok - if scaled up it will cause havoc. Just like fossil fuels.

Sorry - I don't see this. I've made small batches of BD with new and used oil and methanol. It can also be made with other alcohols. Tests show that we get about 4 units of energy out of BD for every unit we put in - compared with 1.5 in to 1 out for gasoline. Much of the alcohol can be reclaimed and reused. Glycerin can be composted or sold to make consumer products.

 

[evnow]

Sorry - I don't see this. I've made small batches of BD with new and used oil and methanol. It can also be made with other alcohols. Tests show that we get about 4 units of energy out of BD for every unit we put in - compared with 1.5 in to 1 out for gasoline. Much of the alcohol can be reclaimed and reused. Glycerin can be composted or sold to make consumer products.

Thats because they start competing with food for water, top soil, phosphorous etc.

 

[AndyH]

Sorry - I don't see this. I've made small batches of BD with new and used oil and methanol. It can also be made with other alcohols. Tests show that we get about 4 units of energy out of BD for every unit we put in - compared with 1.5 in to 1 out for gasoline. Much of the alcohol can be reclaimed and reused. Glycerin can be composted or sold to make consumer products.

Thats because they start competing with food for water, top soil, phosphorous etc.

That's just it - it CAN compete with food but doesn't have to. IF we stick with our petro-chemical dependent industrial farming methods I can agree with you. But sustainable and organic farming improves the soil rather than depleting it without using ANY petro fertilizer and little to no insecticides. The fuel can be made from non-food oil crops - and provides higher oil yields.

Nature makes substances and structures while also improving the environment - BD can as well.

I am finally releasing my diesel car to go 100% electric, so I'm not fighting for continued ICE -- but we'll have ICE around for a very long time yet and BD is a very high quality fuel that can offset dino-diesel use.

 

[evnow]

The fuel can be made from non-food oil crops - and provides higher oil yields.

All that is true - just that we can't make 85 mbpd.

BTW, this is something I've always wondered about.

However, the organic farms in the study produced less than half of the yield of their conventional counterparts

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1272838/Organic-farms-produce-HALF-food-conventional-ones.html?ito=feeds-newsxml