Poll : Are you getting the DC Fast Charge (L3) option ?

[LEAFfan]

The problem for the would-be quick-charging entrepreneur is that most people will buy most of their electricity from the utility via their own charging dock in the garage. With a 100-mile range and overnight charging, most people will never need a public QC facility. So they'd only get business from people on road trips.

Then, if a business (say a gas station) only installs one charger, there is the chance it is in use when you need it, so people with an EV and a stinker might just decide to drive the stinker on the rare occasion when they need to go over 100 miles. And unless you have stations about every 50 miles, with enough slots that there is not an excessive waiting time, most people will think twice before taking a road trip in the EV.

This will change as gasoline gets more and more expensive, but it will take time. Upon mature reflection, I don't think a QC on a 100-mile car makes sense for me. I still need the stinker for road trips (there are no QC stations anywhere around here, much less on the rural routes I drive when I go out of town) and any day I drive more than 100 miles, I'm liable to be driving several hundred miles. Maybe my NEXT electric car after the Leaf will have enough range, and maybe there will be enough QC stations to justify quick charge capability.

There's also the outside possibility that in ten years battery storage will advance enough that an EV has a full day's range in it, and public charging stations are not needed except overnight charging at hotels and motels.

According to the EV Project, there will be over a thousand L2s and at least 50 DC fast chargers, probably those will be off the interstates. It would be interesting to know how many stations they will have before Dec.

 

[LEAFfan]

How true is it that we should only use the DC fast charge once a day because it will be harmful to the batteries if we do more than that (someone posted it from Nissan's website)? If that's true, that defeats the whole idea of DC fast charging for extended trips, and I'm going to be a little disappointed. But if I do decide to use them more than once a day, and the batteries degrade faster, I wonder if the warranty will cover it for replacement.

My guess is it's more like try to avoid 365 Quick Charges in a year. I should think 25 per year would be more reasonable for the battery. The idea is don't depend on Quick Charge for your daily commute; but for long trips, I don't see how you could avoid 5 or more Quick Charges in a day, but how often would you be making those?

But I welcome a battery expert to correct me if I'm mistaken.

That was my point. I was planning on using my LEAF as a Primary car so a few times a year I would go to CA or NV, and that would be way more than once a day using a DC charger. Most of the time, it will be charged with our pvs during the day at off-peak hours.

 

[KeiJidosha]

How true is it that we should only use the DC fast charge once a day because it will be harmful to the batteries if we do more than that (someone posted it from Nissan's website)? If that's true, that defeats the whole idea of DC fast charging for extended trips, and I'm going to be a little disappointed. But if I do decide to use them more than once a day, and the batteries degrade faster, I wonder if the warranty will cover it for replacement.

From the Nissan disclaimer;
"Li-Ion Battery Checks: Nissan recommends regular periodic maintenance, including two required Battery Checks to be completed by a certified Nissan LEAF dealership at intervals of 12 and 24 months at no additional cost to you. Performance of recommended maintenance, including the two Battery Checks, is a condition of your vehicle’s New Vehicle Limited Warranty."
Also;
"The Nissan LEAF records data concerning various vehicle systems, location, driving performance, and operating conditions. Some of this data is transmitted to Nissan through the vehicle onboard CARWINGS (telematics) system. This data is used for the provision of CARWINGS services, as well as for analysis and research by Nissan designed to, among other things, optimize performance of future electric vehicles including improvements in future battery life."

The truth is in the telematics data loggers.

 

[LEAFfan]

How true is it that we should only use the DC fast charge once a day because it will be harmful to the batteries if we do more than that (someone posted it from Nissan's website)? If that's true, that defeats the whole idea of DC fast charging for extended trips, and I'm going to be a little disappointed. But if I do decide to use them more than once a day, and the batteries degrade faster, I wonder if the warranty will cover it for replacement.

From the Nissan disclaimer;
"Li-Ion Battery Checks: Nissan recommends regular periodic maintenance, including two required Battery Checks to be completed by a certified Nissan LEAF dealership at intervals of 12 and 24 months at no additional cost to you. Performance of recommended maintenance, including the two Battery Checks, is a condition of your vehicle’s New Vehicle Limited Warranty."
Also;
"The Nissan LEAF records data concerning various vehicle systems, location, driving performance, and operating conditions. Some of this data is transmitted to Nissan through the vehicle onboard CARWINGS (telematics) system. This data is used for the provision of CARWINGS services, as well as for analysis and research by Nissan designed to, among other things, optimize performance of future electric vehicles including improvements in future battery life."

The truth is in the telematics data loggers.

So they will know when I use DC fast charging?

 

[smkettner]

I would assume Nissan will know everything.
How it is driven, how it is charged and everything in between.

Although I have not read anything on excessive fast charging will actually void the warranty.
Did I miss it?

 

[KeiJidosha]

I would assume Nissan will know everything.
How it is driven, how it is charged and everything in between.

Although I have not read anything on excessive fast charging will actually void the warranty.
Did I miss it?

Again from the Vehicle Disclaimers;
"Quick Charge. - Empty lamp ~80%: ~30 minutes with battery temperature at 77 °F. (Quick Charging more than once per day not recommended)"

 

[TimeHorse]

Then, if a business (say a gas station) only installs one charger, there is the chance it is in use when you need it, so people with an EV and a stinker might just decide to drive the stinker on the rare occasion when they need to go over 100 miles. And unless you have stations about every 50 miles, with enough slots that there is not an excessive waiting time, most people will think twice before taking a road trip in the EV.

That's a fair point. However, I can imagine some of the larger outlet malls adding a few chargers given the large amount of land they have available and their general remoteness. I could imagine around here Potomac Mills and the Leesburg Corner shops would be perfect places for Quick Charging around here. They're far enough out that you probably can make it there and back on a charge so you don't need the quick charge but if you see it as an option which can allow you to hit Leesburg and then a night out in Reston before heading home, then why not, especially if the Mall subsidizes the cost to charge to garner more business. Or, maybe you'll buy more stuff if you can Quick Charge because you're worried about adding weight to your ride.

 

[LakeLeaf]

Wow - 85% of poll responders are getting the QC option.

Nissan really screwed the pooch on this one by not just making it standard equipment on all cars.

Then again - it's looking like a good way to take on either $700, or even $1700 to all the cars. Maybe it was just brilliant marketing. :lol:

Can't wait for the DC charging standard wars to heat up now!

 

[daniel]

... The idea is don't depend on Quick Charge for your daily commute; but for long trips, I don't see how you could avoid 5 or more Quick Charges in a day...

Five quick charges is 2 1/2 hours, not counting possible waiting in line. The quick charge gets you to 80%, and you don't want to go below 20% to avoid getting stranded, and there's not likely to be a station exactly where you need it. So you'll drive 60 miles. You'll have to stop every hour for about 20 minutes (don't need the full 30 minutes because you're stopping with 20% SoC -- but you might have to wait, so it could be longer.).

I can see the scenario where you use an opportunity charge at a remote mall. I can't see depending on quick charging for an extended road trip in a 100-mile car. When Tesla comes out with a 300-mile battery, this will start to change. But then to get 80% in 30 minutes will require three times as powerful a charger!

With a 400-mile car and slow charging at motels I could make my road trips electric and not depend on quick charging.

 

[daniel]

I've just changed my vote. Right now my feeling is the higher trim level but without L3 charging, for the reasons I've described in earlier posts. If the standard was set, I'd get L3 for the resale value. But in the absence of a standard, it's a crap shoot whether it will be worth anything in 5 years.

 

[Yodrak]

I should have thought of this sooner, but the retail sale of electricity is a tightly regulated business with each state having its own regulations. In some states the regulations would have to be changed to allow any entity other than the franchised utilities to sell electricity. In other states there may be provisions allowing non-utilities to sell electricity, but meeting the requirements of the provisions may not be trivial.

Giving the electricity for charging away might not be an issue. But if done on a large enough scale, by either a government or a private entity, it could become an issue. State regulators can be highly protective of their turf.

Bottom line - it may be difficult to develop public EV charging infrastructure of significant size. If those who argue that most EV charging will be done at home - as it certainly will be in the early years - there may not be sufficient incentive to drive the changes that would be needed.

The future will be interesting, and it's only just beginning.

... once there are enough EVs on the road - and I have no idea how many 'enough' is - we'll start seeing L3 chargers at gas stations. It's a natural extension of their business.

... if the price per kWh could be set by the merchant she could certainly charge to charge (sorry) any price she saw fit.

 

[TimeHorse]

I've just changed my vote. Right now my feeling is the higher trim level but without L3 charging, for the reasons I've described in earlier posts. If the standard was set, I'd get L3 for the resale value. But in the absence of a standard, it's a crap shoot whether it will be worth anything in 5 years.

My main concern is Betamax: first but outsold in the first few years thus deprecated. If the Quick Charge decided by Nissan is eventually rejected, there's Betamax for you. But the thing is, Microsoft is on the ISO C++ standards committee so some of the weird things you see in Managed Code are actually going to be in ISO C++ 0x, but so are a number of things from Boost. My point is, industry can influence standards and by Nissan being part of the solution there's a good chance that what Nissan implements could become de Facto standard. That is, unless GM weighs in with a completely contrary standard and whines to the standards committee about Nissan's choice being unamerican. :roll:

 

[TimeHorse]

I should have thought of this sooner, but the retail sale of electricity is a tightly regulated business with each state having its own regulations. In some states the regulations would have to be changed to allow any entity other than the franchised utilities to sell electricity. In other states there may be provisions allowing non-utilities to sell electricity, but meeting the requirements of the provisions may not be trivial.

Fair point, but I suppose a court could nit-pick about whether J1772 connections fell under the rubric of regulated utility markets, or if those rules only governed the cost at the mains.

 

[prberg]

I agree with Daniel. I am just thinking of the LEAF as my in town car. When we go out of town, or on road trips we will take the Prius. There are just too many variables for the L3 charging (will there be enough along the route I want to go, will the stations be working when I pull in?, will there be anyone else using it?) for longer trips. I do hope to see more Level 2 chargers at malls, libraries, movie theaters, grocery stores, etc. I see that as being useful (top off the car while doing some shopping or at work).

I do agree that the next few years will be very interesting and if the L3 chargers pop up everywhere then I might look to get my car converted if possible (and yeah it will probably cost more than the $1700 I would pay now). But for now I will stick close to home with the LEAF (which will be awesome enough for me!)

-Peter

 

[smkettner]

My understanding is that since the business is not just supplying electricity the price is not regulated.
The real cost is for the charging equipment and the service.

 

[Yodrak]

Who - what entity - can sell electricity is regulated in all states.

As for price, how the selling price is determined is also established by the states. In some states all aspects of the price are set directly by the commissions, in other states the commissions have established the framework for a market that determines the commodity price and the commissions directly set the prices for unbundled associated services such as the transmission and distribution of the electricity.

As examples of both 'who' and 'how much', I live on the border of two states. In my state, under current law, only a franchised utility can sell electricity to an end-use customer. A gas station, or any other type of business, could not wire-up a coin or CC operated charging station to their panel and re-sell the electricity. Also, it is not an electricity market state. The commission sets a price that each utility can charge for it's electricity consisting of only 2 components - a fixed monthly service charge and a fixed per kWhr energy charge.

A couple of miles away, the adjoining state allows "alternate suppliers" to sell electricity at retail. An alternate supplier must be certified by the state commission and must be registered as an alternate supplier with the utility in whose service territory they are operating. A direct customer of the utility pays unbudled rates that include a fixed monthly service charge and a fixed per kWhr transmission and distribution charge set by the commission, and a variable per kWhr commodity charge based on market pricing. (You California folks know how that can work, or sometimes not work, right?) I don't know how alternate supplier prices are established. It would be onerous and not worth the effort for an independently-owned car dealer or gas station to set themself up as an alternate supplier. It might be worth it for WalMart or an oil company-owned string of gas stations.

My understanding is that since the business is not just supplying electricity the price is not regulated.
The real cost is for the charging equipment and the service.

 

[rainnw]

Nearly every parking spot in Alaska has had L1 charging stations for decades. There is no charge for this service, and nearly any reputable home, business, airport, or restaurant has them available. :lol: All this energy is wasted (200-1100 watts) to keep an engine warm 24 hours a day during the winter...just so you have the option to burn fuel at any moment. (and to keep things from breaking).

Yeah, its a little different with L2/L3 charging, but I find the struggle to create electric charging stations comical.

My guess is it's more like try to avoid 365 Quick Charges in a year. I should think 25 per year would be more reasonable for the battery. The idea is don't depend on Quick Charge for your daily commute; but for long trips, I don't see how you could avoid 5 or more Quick Charges in a day, but how often would you be making those?

But I welcome a battery expert to correct me if I'm mistaken.

Lacking any knowledge of the battery chemistry or specifications (just saying Lithium batteries is not specific enough), that is a hard question to answer. But its reasonable to say that Nissan will be charging and discharging the batteries within current and temperature specifications. If that is the case, it doesn't matter if it was quick charged, partially charged, charged at level 1, 2 instead. (this is all assuming that they are not quick charging way out of specification and making the battery red hot...which i doubt since they do not want exploding cars) The biggest battery longevity killer is the number of full charge cycles put on the battery. Quick Charging multiple times a day will significantly add to the number of cycles you will put on the vehicle.

A charge cycle can be:

one full charge from a depleted charge
two half charges
four quarter charges
etc.

A battery's total energy output per charge is proportional to the current discharge rate. Batteries have efficiencies too depending on how much energy you demand from them at a continuous moment in time. Colder weather significantly reduces this efficiency too.

Lithium Ion Polymer batteries typically start losing sizable amounts of storage (20-30%) around 300 charges, but it depends heavily on chemistry and technology. LiFe batteries, while not the most efficient in terms of weight per watt, can be in the thousands.

I have had a considerable amount of experience using LiPo in challenging outdoor environments with charging circuitry.....its a rather forgiving battery technology as long as you keep electrons moving. If you let them sit stagnant, charge/discharge them out of specification, purchase from a crappy supplier, etc. things can go wrong.

 

[garygid]

The CA Public Utility Commission just passed a "rule" that one does
NOT need to be a PU to sell electricity for EV charging (in CA).

But, other areas might sell "parking" (or some such) rather than e-fuel.

 

[TimeHorse]

Gary, good point on selling "Parking"! I like that presentation of a loophole!

In the long term, where as commodity prices are regulated because we consider things like Electrification and Heating of households a basic need in this country and thus it's is the general consensus that it must be a regulated market to keep the potential monopoly power of a utility from gauging customers for the basic commodity. I'm not here to argue for or against such regulation, but I will state for the record that I support it.

However, charging an EV at a "private" charging facility (as opposed to a "public" one, which, as publicly funded should be, IMHO, free) would be better served by allowing market forces to dictate price. Since away from home charging should hopefully be a luxury and not a need for most EV drivers, it would be fair to allow any private charging facility to charge any price they see fit. If the price isn't reasonable, people won't use the service so there is incentive to set a reasonable price, and this will keep costs down. If multiple merchants build charging facilities, like multiple gasoline stations, then they will compete against each other to get business to again lower costs. The danger would be if only 1 business got exclusive rights to supply electricity at a rest area on the highway. But we don't generally allow exclusivity to a specific petrochemical provider at most rest areas, and if we do, they will, as a monopoly provider be regulated as part of the highway commission of that state. Generally, though, it's easier for a state to just give 2 petrol providers contracts to provide service at that station, and so too should they just ensure that 2 separate private EVSE providers should be commissioned to provide service at a given facility, again creating competition.

This, of course, is not how it is -- Yodrak has explained how it probably really is -- but it is how I personally wish it to be. The Free Market isn't always the answer IMHO, but in this case I think it perfectly fits.

 

[TimeHorse]

But, other areas might sell "parking" (or some such) rather than e-fuel.

Actually, cost per time parking charges raise an interesting point. A 6.6kW charger is going to pull down more energy than a 3.3kW one like in the LEAF, so by forcing the private EVSE to use the parking loophole, you still have an incentive to service the slow-charging vehicles over the quick ones. You could sell a Quick Charge spot for more, to be sure, but if it's an L2 I would really hate it when the 6.6kW modified LEAFs come to park in my spot!