Poll : Are you getting the DC Fast Charge (L3) option ?

[LEAFguy]

Do you think Nissan will change out the port for free if the US doesn't go with the TEPCO port?

Extremely unlikely.

 

[daniel]

I'm getting the L3 charger even though there will probably be no public fast chargers in Spokane for a very long time. I'm doing it for the resale value. I'm assuming that if the standard is changed, it will be possible to install the new one, though not for free.

Caveat: I could change my mind. I'm one of the unfortunate September people, which, given Nissan's track record, probably means I'll get to order on Halloween night.

 

[daniel]

After posting the above I went to Nissan's live chat. Here is the transcript of the relevant portion:

Daniel:
My question is about the Level 3 fast charger: If I order it and the standard changes, will it be possible to upgrade the car to the new standard?

Patrick:
We appreciate your interest in the Nissan LEAF . I would be happy to help you with that.

Patrick:
We are still working on those details. However, the best way to ensure you have the information you need when the time comes is to register for e-mail updates about the Nissan LEAF at http://www.nissanusa.com.

Daniel:
I am registered to receive updates. But at this point, Nissan is taking orders from some folks, and they must decide whether or not to order the L3 fast charger. It's hard to make such a decision when you don't know if the charger will actually work once a standard is adopted.

Patrick:
Daniel we are advising customers that the Level 3 charger has no industry standard and may even change from market to market.

I guess now I'm not so sure about the fast charger!

 

[Ready2plugin]

I agree it is difficult to decide, but here is what I'm planning.
I'm ordering the L3 but will wait and decide to either purchase or lease once the car comes in. If it looks like in Dec/Jan there is no clear winner on the L3, or if the Leaf is coming with one that is not "standard", I'll change my mind from owning to leasing just in case the resale suffers. I'm still hopeful that it will be decided before Dec/Jan deliverly times.... But I've been disappointed before.

 

[Yodrak]

If I understand correctly that it's a factory-installed item, that should pretty much answer the question.

Do you think Nissan will change out the port for free if the US doesn't go with the TEPCO port?

 

[LEAFer]

Do you think Nissan will change out the port for free if the US doesn't go with the TEPCO port?

If I understand correctly that it's a factory-installed item, that should pretty much answer the question.

Well ... not necessarily. We all (most?) seem to think the $700 option is just the "port", when most likely it also includes all the high-voltage lines and control equipment inside the car necessary to implement the DC QC. For that reason it's really only cost effective to have it installed during manufacturing. **BUT** depending on whether the SAE versus the TEPCO/CHAdeMO" standard requires hardware changes OTHER THAN just the port in the nose of the vehicle, a dealer *might* be able to change to an SAE-style port. I don't know whether the hardware beyond the port will be affected. And the rest could just be a firmware update.

Of course there's also the issue of the physical dimensions of the SAE port fitting into the space of the TEPCO port area.

Just wishful thinking. But if the standard changes ... would be great if a dealership swap could help the early adopters.... adapters? Speaking of which ! How about an "adapter" ?

Still dreaming ... Hope it never has to come to that !

 

[EVNation]

It is complete BS that they force you to buy the SL upgrade in order to buy an extra $700 charger. I am fine with the Optional L3 charger for $700. But I am not paying an extra $1k for a bunch of crappy options I don't want, just to get an occasional fast charge option. I very rarely used any fast (50 amp) charger for the Mini-E.

There is no reason why they can't technically add the fast charge port to the basic option.

Pass...

The aftermarket will take care of all these issues. If Nissan doesn't install it at the factory, someone will if those chargers actually roll out to any large amount.

The really issue for me is how much with the upgrade to the 6kw internal level 2 charger be. That will actually be useful daily for me.

 

[rainnw]

Seems to make perfect sense to fully load the car with useful features for a small increase in price. Having more cars on the road L3 equipped is only going to make L3 charging easier to come by.

 

[daniel]

Note above that I asked if it would be possible to upgrade the car from the factory L3 port to whatever the standard turns out to be, and the answer was that Nissan is "still working on that." IOW, even Nissan does not know yet if an upgrade will be possible! I didn't ask if Nissan would do it for free, merely if it could be done.

In the case of the L3 charging, I gather that the actual charger is off board, meaning that it feeds directly to the batteries. So is it string-charging the whole pack? What sort of pack management is done during charging to prevent overcharging some cells if different cells are taking charge at different rates? Is that management done on board or off board?

Presumably the pack management must be done on board since there are too many possible battery configurations and types for the off board charger to deal with. This suggests lots of hardware in the car to accommodate fast charging, and perhaps sophisticated communication with the off board charger. I'm thinking it might not be possible to change the car if the standard changes.

I guess if I got my email tomorrow (technically possible -- I'm September -- but about a snowball's chance in hell) I'd decline the fast charger. In any case, I think for the fast charger to be really useful the car should have at least 200 miles range, and preferably 300.

 

[planet4ever]

Seems to make perfect sense to fully load the car with useful features for a small increase in price. Having more cars on the road L3 equipped is only going to make L3 charging easier to come by.

Now that's a curious sort of logic. Ignoring possible L3 chargers at Nissan dealers, my impression is that most of the ones initially being installed are on some government agency's dime. I'm not at all sure that having more Leafs with L3 ports is going to convince legislators to shell out more money in the near future.

So it looks to me as if the more Leafs there are that can use L3 chargers, the more competition there will be for the limited number of chargers available. That would make L3 charging harder to come by, at least for the first few years.

 

[Yodrak]

So it looks to me as if the more Leafs there are that can use L3 chargers, the more competition there will be for the limited number of chargers available. That would make L3 charging harder to come by, at least for the first few years.

I expect that no matter what L3 charging is going to be hard to come by for the first few years, except for a very few places in the country where one level or another of government makes a push for it. But, once there are enough EVs on the road - and I have no idea how many 'enough' is - we'll start seeing L3 chargers at gas stations. It's a natural extension of their business. People will shop the convenience store while charging rather than after filling up.

 

[TimeHorse]

So it looks to me as if the more Leafs there are that can use L3 chargers, the more competition there will be for the limited number of chargers available. That would make L3 charging harder to come by, at least for the first few years.

I think the logic goes like this: "If you build it, they will come..." No, strike that. I don't mean to be cliché, but from a practical point of view, 1 of 2 things could happen:

1) Supply and demand: here is an untapped market that, for example, filling stations can take advantage of by getting a loan and installing metered EVSEs with a sizable profit margin that still beats gasoline and taking advantage of a market with much more demand than supply.

2) Restaurants and shopping malls, especially out-of-the-way outlet malls, can get loans to install the EVSE to increase customer flow and thus increase business, thus providing charging as a perk of shopping there.

That said, strike restaurant from the argument; most restaurants don't have the profit margin to do this no matter how much it'd increase business unless they did so collectively as a part of a larger business district. But clearly, Restaurants are the best place because people need to wait around and spending your time eating is about the right amount of waiting.

 

[evnow]

1) Supply and demand: here is an untapped market that, for example, filling stations can take advantage of by getting a loan and installing metered EVSEs with a sizable profit margin that still beats gasoline and taking advantage of a market with much more demand than supply.

According to studies I've read, Level 3 chargers will not be profitable. They can only make money on anciliary services like gas stations do now.

 

[garygid]

Over 80% (of poll respondants) are ordering the QC option - GREAT!

The "sport" of e-roaming should be fun, always thinking, "Can I bypass this QC-station and still make it to the next?"

Typical QC-station visits will often have 20% or 30% left in the e-tank, so charging to 80% might take only 15 minutes (and wait time, if any). But, then you might be "adding" only 40 miles to your remaining range, not 80.

 

[TimeHorse]

According to studies I've read, Level 3 chargers will not be profitable. They can only make money on anciliary services like gas stations do now.

It'd a tricky thing to measure, to be sure. But if the price per kWh could be set by the merchant she could certainly charge to charge (sorry) any price she saw fit. So if the nominal cost was say $.50 per kWh, which is split between utility, paying back the loan (principal and interest) for the EVSE and some profit, it may be worth it, since at that price you're getting, say, 24kWh/100 mi = $12 / 100 mi = 12 cents per mi; Now granted, if petrol is going for $2.55 per gallon at the same station, you're only getting 21 mpg-equivalent, which compared to a modern ICE is pretty abysmal but consider if it's a matter of ponying up $12 to avoid being stranded, I think people will pay that every once in a while. Just don't make a habit of it; and also don't make a habit of it since excessive Quick Charging will degrade your battery life anyway.

 

[garygid]

At $12 per 40 to 50 miles, e-roaming will be rather expensive.

At $3 it would be about the same as gasoline, but ... perhaps 3 times the price for charging at home at night.

 

[LEAFfan]

Just don't make a habit of it; and also don't make a habit of it since excessive Quick Charging will degrade your battery life anyway.

How true is it that we should only use the DC fast charge once a day because it will be harmful to the batteries if we do more than that (someone posted it from Nissan's website)? If that's true, that defeats the whole idea of DC fast charging for extended trips, and I'm going to be a little disappointed. But if I do decide to use them more than once a day, and the batteries degrade faster, I wonder if the warranty will cover it for replacement.

 

[daniel]

The problem for the would-be quick-charging entrepreneur is that most people will buy most of their electricity from the utility via their own charging dock in the garage. With a 100-mile range and overnight charging, most people will never need a public QC facility. So they'd only get business from people on road trips.

Then, if a business (say a gas station) only installs one charger, there is the chance it is in use when you need it, so people with an EV and a stinker might just decide to drive the stinker on the rare occasion when they need to go over 100 miles. And unless you have stations about every 50 miles, with enough slots that there is not an excessive waiting time, most people will think twice before taking a road trip in the EV.

This will change as gasoline gets more and more expensive, but it will take time. Upon mature reflection, I don't think a QC on a 100-mile car makes sense for me. I still need the stinker for road trips (there are no QC stations anywhere around here, much less on the rural routes I drive when I go out of town) and any day I drive more than 100 miles, I'm liable to be driving several hundred miles. Maybe my NEXT electric car after the Leaf will have enough range, and maybe there will be enough QC stations to justify quick charge capability.

There's also the outside possibility that in ten years battery storage will advance enough that an EV has a full day's range in it, and public charging stations are not needed except overnight charging at hotels and motels.

 

[TimeHorse]

At $12 per 40 to 50 miles, e-roaming will be rather expensive.

At $3 it would be about the same as gasoline, but ... perhaps 3 times the price for charging at home at night.

Well, the model I used says it's $12 per 100 mi, as in full charge. In reality it's 80% of $12 or $9.60 for 80 mi, or $4.80 for 40.

 

[TimeHorse]

How true is it that we should only use the DC fast charge once a day because it will be harmful to the batteries if we do more than that (someone posted it from Nissan's website)? If that's true, that defeats the whole idea of DC fast charging for extended trips, and I'm going to be a little disappointed. But if I do decide to use them more than once a day, and the batteries degrade faster, I wonder if the warranty will cover it for replacement.

My guess is it's more like try to avoid 365 Quick Charges in a year. I should think 25 per year would be more reasonable for the battery. The idea is don't depend on Quick Charge for your daily commute; but for long trips, I don't see how you could avoid 5 or more Quick Charges in a day, but how often would you be making those?

But I welcome a battery expert to correct me if I'm mistaken.