Plug-in-Cars article on Paul Scott, Santa Monica Nissan

[Skywagon]

I find it interesting that many who have no problem paying under MSRP have a problem with a dealer asking for a price over MSRP.

If you are selling your house and got two offers; one being for the listed price and one being $10,000 over the listed price, everyone here would take the higher offer.

In the housing market, or even the gas powered car market, that is just fine. The problem I see here is that the non-fiscally wise individuals that have to have the latest and greatest toy are the ones who will offer insane amounts for a new LEAF. They typically will be the people who will be the most disappointed as they did not fully understand the car and/or its purpose. Meanwhile, the car being sold that way will only upset those die-hard individuals who know what the car is and are waiting in line to purchase one. That is why I believe that orphan cars should be reassigned to another person in the line as they will better understand and appreciate what they are getting. That will only help the image the public sees of the automobile; not the negative one of the non-fiscally wise individual with no patience.

 

[Train]

Why is it different with an electric car? It's a car, a product. If someone really wants it, they will pay the market value. If it's too high, they won't.

They're not supposed to sell at a higher price because it might upset a diehard? I'm not sure that's a good reason that the dealer shouldn't sell it for market value, the price someone is willing to pay for it.

 

[Skywagon]

Why is it different with an electric car? It's a car, a product. If someone really wants it, they will pay the market value. If it's too high, they won't.

They're not supposed to sell at a higher price because it might upset a diehard? I'm not sure that's a good reason that the dealer shouldn't sell it for market value, the price someone is willing to pay for it.

I was not referring to what the dealer should concern themselves with, but what Nissan corporate should do to better allocate the "orphan" cars.

 

[Train]

Point taken.

 

[Devin]

Just wanted to add here that I think this article was written in such a way that paints Paul in a harsh light. I'm a member of Plug In America and I've volunteered alongside Paul a few times and as everyone else says who has met him, he really is one of the most compassionate and nice guys in the EV community.

I did speak with Paul about buying my LEAF from him at Santa Monica but in the end the financials just didn't make sense and on top of that I was so impressed with Danny and Joanna at Fontana that it just seemed like the right way to go. While I personally much prefer Fontana's approach to orphans, which is to try to put them in the hands of the next person in line (at least that's what Danny indicated to me during a previous conversation), I can understand what Santa Monica Nissan and Paul are doing.

Does the "gouging" make sense from a PR standpoint? No. Does it make sense from a financial standpoint? Maybe. On one hand they stand to make a large profit on single vehicles, but on the other hand the PR will cause them to have fewer overall orders. In my opinion it is probably a wash at the end of the day, but I don't think it's really a matter of the "right" thing to do as much as it is the "nice" thing to do.

I will say that dealerships like Fontana who go out of their way to support the community and handle all their deals in a professional and kind way will become known as "THE" EV dealerships. With our Civic GX we drive 60 miles each way to go to Robertson's Palmdale Honda for all the maintenance that we don't do ourselves because they not only have fair prices but they have gone out of their way to court GX owners and their management team is very enthusiastic about the technology - even going so far as to install a CNG station right at the dealership. So for quite a few GX owners, Robertson's is "THE" Civic GX dealership, and that gives them good word of mouth and repeat business.

I hope that more businesses will see the light and operate in this way so I vote with my dollars by going where I feel like the customer is valued for more than just their money.

 

[TomT]

The big difference is that, in the housing market, there aren't thousands of Realtors selling tens of thousands of exactly the same model of new house in every market in the country...

In the housing market, or even the gas powered car market, that is just fine.

 

[GeorgeParrott]

I also found almost everything in Paul Scott's interview highly unacceptable. I can only conclude that he has been totally compromised in his early values and appears to have "sold out" to the dark side. Below is an excerpt from my post on Plug-in-cars:

Further many of us in the expected early delivery group, certainly myself, would MUCH rather have accurate information as to what was happening WITH OUR ORDER rather than crap mailers of color options (after our own choices were already finalized) and T-shirts that are not what we ordered when and IF those even arrive.

Basically, as I have posted elsewhere, I would NEVER believe again anything from Nissan corporate. My Nissan dealer has been wonderful, but Nissan Corporate is treating us as stupid children that can be appeased with a $ .10 toy.....and another fairy tale story.

Truth, and transparency would have gone a LONG way to make me a happy Nissan customer, as it is this was my first Nissan purchase (after owning Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, Lexus and VW), and it is very likely to be my.....last such.

And your (Paul's) attitudes about capitalism to me represent what is truly wrong with this country and with so many of us. If we have the chance to exploit others, from a position of power and opportunity, that is THE choice. It just seems too bad that we cannot simply try to find a reasonable exchange process/level where the seller makes enough to stay in business and the consumer can truly have access to those goods. (Clearly I admit, I am NOT a capitalist nor do I support that economic theory).

 

[evnow]

Without Paul Scott and a handful of others you would not have a Leaf, period.

Totally wrong. While I greatly appreciate what Paul & plugin are doing (I even contribute to plugin) - the main reason we have Leaf is Ghosn (and Peak Oil). I'd be surprised if Ghosn had even heard about Plugin or Paul when he ordered production of EVs in 2005.

 

[sparky]

wow. I take a few hours off of this forum (while intently waiting for my phone to ring from Fontana-Danny's number) and it's the EVpocalypse. I guess many of us have exposed nerves with the ship tracking, truck-o-leaf photos and minute by minute VIN spreadsheet flash-mob.

Paul stepped in it. No defending his comments. I really do appreciate his passionate, hard work over the years in the EV wilderness but the trouble with the out-spoken "rabble-rousers" is they become a liability once the revolution goes mainstream. And that's what Nissan's trying to accomplish and perhaps why they intentionally tried to diminish the significance of dealers to this initial rollout.
Paul's comments make that move seem ever wiser.
He's not really talking like a capitalist:
“If you don’t value human life at all. If you don’t value a strong economy at all. If you don’t care about your own kids’ health at all. If those things have no value to you, then you can compare a Yaris with the LEAF, and say it doesn’t pencil out for me,” he warns. “But you’d have to be a selfish individual, a real selfish human being, to not value that stuff.”
... I guess this assumes an extra $5k? over MSRP shows you really, really value "that stuff".
Of course, his gouging comment does make it seem like he's transitioned far away from the GM EV1-protester and has somehow done the Vulcan mind-meld with Cal Worthington.
But this: Paul said. “They should go back eight years in my shoes and stand out there on the sidewalk in Burbank in the pouring down rain to stop GM from crushing some cars. Where were they when we were fighting that fight? I didn’t see these guys out there. They didn’t even hear about electric cars until we did a lot of the legwork to get the word out.”
So, are we capitalists or do we require some sort of "purity test" in order to buy an EV?

Why is it different with an electric car? It's a car, a product. If someone really wants it, they will pay the market value. If it's too high, they won't.

They're not supposed to sell at a higher price because it might upset a diehard? I'm not sure that's a good reason that the dealer shouldn't sell it for market value, the price someone is willing to pay for it.

Nissan has made this a non-standard car rollout, going direct to us early adopters. I'm guessing there's very few here on this forum that wish Nissan had just sent the cars to the dealers and had us negotiate those prices. It's already a rigged, non-capitalistic formula. One car per household, specific rollout areas based less on money than "civic enthusiasm". So, it's different this time. Although I acknowledge this was an "orphan" situation.
I don't know Paul Scott. I think his comments made me glad I didn't choose Santa Monica Nissan, among others and I don't think the article puts a good light on him nor on SM Nissan... and that's bad if you're supposed to be a salesman, much less an EVangelist.

 

[Train]

Nissan has made this a non-standard car rollout, going direct to us early adopters. I'm guessing there's very few here on this forum that wish Nissan had just sent the cars to the dealers and had us negotiate those prices. It's already a rigged, non-capitalistic formula. One car per household, specific rollout areas based less on money than "civic enthusiasm". So, it's different this time. Although I acknowledge this was an "orphan" situation.

And that's what I was referring to. The orphaned vehicles. None of us here would take a lower offer on a home we were selling. We would take the higher offer. Regardless whether it's real estate, cars or something on ebay. You don't take the low bid or offer. The buyer wants it lower, the seller wants it higher. You negotiate a deal.

I understand for the cars that people reserved, this is how Nissan set this up. No problem. But when there's a car that someone refused for whatever reason, that car is now the dealer's to sell to anyone. They can sell it for what they want to.

Again, I find it interesting that those who would accept a deal for under MSRP have a problem when a dealer asks for over MSRP.

 

[Train]

It just seems too bad that we cannot simply try to find a reasonable exchange process/level where the seller makes enough to stay in business and the consumer can truly have access to those goods.

Who and what define reasonable?

No one is forcing anyone to buy a Leaf. No one has to wait. They can just walk away.

 

[evnow]

The buyer wants it lower...

Since we are all buyers here, we want it for lower price. That is how capitalism works

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Maybe someone can explain who this Paul guy is and what, precisely, he did that brought the Nissan Leaf to market.

Is he an engineer? A lobbyist? A journalist? I sense from the postings that we all owe him a material debt, but I couldn't tell you what for.

I've never heard of him. From the article, I know he's a car salesman, and a crass one at that.

 

[ENIAC]

Maybe someone can explain who this Paul guy is and what, precisely, he did that brought the Nissan Leaf to market.

Is he an engineer? A lobbyist? A journalist? I sense from the postings that we all owe him a material debt, but I couldn't tell you what for.

I've never heard of him. From the article, I know he's a car salesman, and a crass one at that.

I wonder if it's possible to google him?

 

[evnow]

Is he an engineer? A lobbyist? A journalist? I sense from the postings that we all owe him a material debt, but I couldn't tell you what for.

http://www.pluginamerica.org/users/paul

Paul is a founding member of Plug In America and a long-time EV driver and advocate for renewable energy. Paul has worked in the film business for most of his career while keeping involved as a population activist and environmental activist. Paul currently works for SolarCity, California's largest residential solar installer. Paul also is the president of the Electric Vehicle Association of Southern California.

 

[sparky]

And that's what I was referring to. The orphaned vehicles. None of us here would take a lower offer on a home we were selling. We would take the higher offer. Regardless whether it's real estate, cars or something on ebay. You don't take the low bid or offer. The buyer wants it lower, the seller wants it higher. You negotiate a deal.

I understand for the cars that people reserved, this is how Nissan set this up. No problem. But when there's a car that someone refused for whatever reason, that car is now the dealer's to sell to anyone. They can sell it for what they want to.

Again, I find it interesting that those who would accept a deal for under MSRP have a problem when a dealer asks for over MSRP.

That's not what I find interesting.
I got a deal for under MSRP because I knew the dealer was not ordering the car to put on their lot to have a gaggle of EVthusiasts bid on. The dealer only got to touch that car because I directed Nissan to allow them to place the order. As a result, dealers who tried to conduct business in the standard dealer fashion... "well we know it's worth a lot more than MSRP and if you put $1000 down we'll put you on our list"... I had a problem with.
But first off, according to the Paul Scott comment below the article: " The "orphaned LEAF" is not ours to sell. It belongs to Nissan and we're just holding it till we hear from them about what they want to do. The fair thing, and what I hope they decide, is to find the next person on the list who ordered a black SL w/o the DC quick charge port and move them up on the list."
Secondly, it's not clear Nissan has articulated a clear process for dealing with "orphans" so they're as much to blame for all the sturm and drang over this issue.
Lastly, I don't begrudge SM NIssan for going all car-dealerish over this one car. Car dealers usually underwhelm me with their altruism towards any greater good. But, given his Googled-EV-cred, I do find Paul Scott's assimilation into this club interesting.

 

[Train]

Since we are all buyers here, we want it for lower price. That is how capitalism works

Some here don't quite seem to understand that. They feel it's OK to ask for under MSRP but get indignant when the dealer asks over MSRP.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

wow! you guys are pretty thin-skinned here.

hate to say it, but he presents "just the facts, ma'am" and exactly what is wrong with that?

on his statement about orphaned cars, what would you have him say?

"oh, i am sorry that customer got impatient and thru a hissy fit and went elsewhere" to be honest with ya, HE IS RIGHT!! the wait has been one hell of a long time, so what the F*** is a few more months really gonna mean? we have been waiting 8 months and now you are going to throw it away all because of a few more?

granted his answer was a bit glib, but look at his perceptive; he probably gave the answer thinking that the situation would not happen and anyone would be crazy to turn down the Leaf

and HE IS RIGHT!!

**edit**
now that i have read beyond page 1, i am happy that others have come to the defense of Paul...

now; as a salesman, how much power does Paul have to set price? answer; none. he can go to his sales manager and submit a bid for a customer, but the markup is not his decision.

the printed word is always going to be misinterpreted and i cant help but wonder if the quote is completely accurate since printed "communication" only relies on the actual word spoken to convey how much meaning? well i googled the stats and apparently the actual words spoken might has well been in an untranslated foreign language since tone, context and body language all seem to be more important when getting the point across.

now, i "kinda" understand where some of you are coming from i guess. but i took the article to read like someone who was very overjoyed at being such an integral part of putting the Leaf on the market. i thought it was a bit strange at first thinking he went and got this job selling the Leaf. wondering is he broke, needs a job? well, dont know. maybe the answer is yes, but that seems a bit doubtful.

so if finances are not the reason, the only thing left is love. now we all could use more love in our lives and in this world.

if you cannot accept his way of love, then move on.

 

[ranchleaf]

Without Paul Scott and a handful of others you would not have a Leaf, period.

Totally wrong. While I greatly appreciate what Paul & plugin are doing (I even contribute to plugin) - the main reason we have Leaf is Ghosn (and Peak Oil). I'd be surprised if Ghosn had even heard about Plugin or Paul when he ordered production of EVs in 2005.

Well, if it's really true they did order actual production in 05, then I submit instead he had a major influence later on as we were all in Sundance in 05 for the premier of Who Killed the Electric Car and promoting the movie that year and for years to come, however....

Again, when the history of this whole thing is written.....

Later on it was Nissan that sought out Plugin America and specifically Paul. They came and spent days with Paul and others having them show Nissan's engineers a day in the life of an EV driver. Many aspects of the telematics info, marketing(except delivery info ), range, usability, etc., came as a direct influence from Paul and a handful of others like I mentioned. Well before the launch of the vehicle Paul Scott and only 4 others were in Japan meeting with Goshn for an hour. That's Goshn seeking Paul's information. We do wish that they had some better communication with the customer and Paul will tell you that, but I know where he is coming from. It's frustrating because we are all excited(and I complain to Nissan heartily and regularly), but it's real, here and the vehicle does need to be perfect. Can you imagine what 1 single electrical fire would do to EV's? Regardless of the fact that hundreds of gas guzzlers catch on fire everyday. It could set back EV's for years.

 

[evnow]

Since we are all buyers here, we want it for lower price. That is how capitalism works

Some here don't quite seem to understand that. They feel it's OK to ask for under MSRP but get indignant when the dealer asks over MSRP.

You apparently didn't understand what I said. In capitalism buyers are supposed to haggle to get lower prices and get annoyed when the prices are high. That is what you see here. Buyers should look at it ONLY from their own bueyr's perspective and sellers only from sellers perspective. Otherwise capitalism breaks and the world will come to an end.