Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Volusiano said:
Now that the news of 2 of the AZ LEAFs are being bought back by Nissan under the AZ lemon laws, and some hint from channel 5 about Nissan thinking of pulling LEAF sales from AZ

I wouldn't mind if Nissan stopped selling the LEAF here until a different chemistry that could withstand high ambient heat over time replaced the present battery pack, but I really hope they would still allow drivers to lease the car for those that always drive shorter distances or may not need a lot of range, such as retirees. Despite all the problems, I strongly believe they should keep it in the lease program.
 
My LEAF is only 1 1/2 years old with 15K miles and I have lost 20% capacity.
I only charged to 80% at night when cooler, even did some at only 120v
always parked in shade
drive light averaging 5.6 miles/ KwH
Never Fast Charged

We all want Nissan to do great,
My offer is for them to step up and also get free testing in return.
Replace our battery pack with the new 2013 pack already in production in Smyrna Tenn.
We can test the new chemistry for HEAT, same car, drive, charger ,area etc
a perfect test so they can brag the new batteries are HEAT proof.

Other EVs like the Tesla, Focus ,Smart-ED and even the VOLT all have liquid battery cooling. They drive in our area with no capacity loss at all. A BIG key is to have battery temperature control. Better Chemistry also is a BIG factor.

Will they turn a NEGATIVE into a POSITIVE , or discharge this real problem ?
 
From what we've heard the 2013 pack is not new chemistry, so nothing to learn from testing, it will probably behave the same way in the heat, unless they are adding cooling.
 
jstack6 said:
My LEAF is only 1 1/2 years old with 15K miles and I have lost 20% capacity.

This isn't an easy measurement. Miles to LBW, for example, will decrease much faster than total capacity. So 20% capacity loss measured how?
 
WetEV said:
jstack6 said:
My LEAF is only 1 1/2 years old with 15K miles and I have lost 20% capacity.

This isn't an easy measurement. Miles to LBW, for example, will decrease much faster than total capacity. So 20% capacity loss measured how?

and where? You mention Heat, but who knows.
 
evchels said:
There wouldn't be many reasons that someone would need to replace a pack before the warranty expires, and that's the price new buyers are most interested in based on the questions I get. Why scare them (and invite the negative press) with today's price?

A capacity warranty will cost Nissan $x, with x being dependant on details of the warranty and the future life of battery packs. Lots of messy details here, including prorating, measurement of capacity, etc.

A pack replacement price under the current cost, and close to the future cost and price, might also cost $x. This removes most of the messy details. If someone has the cash, they can replace the battery. If they don't, they would be able to expect to sell the car to someone that could put a battery pack in for an attractive price. No arguments over 70.02% capacity, so you can't get a warranty replacement. If they want a fresh pack every year with 93% of original capacity left, go for it. If they can make a pack last until capacity has dropped to 40% or less, great. And I'd guess that there would be a good market for the used packs. Even a pack at EOL might be useful to someone with a short commute. Buy at 70% a little over scrap value, use for years then sell for scrap value. Also, even in hot places there are things that drivers can do to significantly increase pack lifetime: swamp cooler or AC in garage, taking another car on hot days, parking in shade... And while I've only a rough idea of how much these might help, this puts the incentive to the owner to improve battery pack life. They will find out what works. To help them out, the pack temperature needs to be open to reading by both aftermarket devices like "Leafscan" and by the car's instruments. Also would be nice to have temperature logging for the owner over Carwings as well.

If I was spending Nissan's money, I'd discount the battery packs. Perhaps a warrenty on battery packs that will almost never be hit like 70% at 12 months or 12,000 miles.

To be very clear, this is my personal view as the owner of a Leaf, and not the view of my employer (Microsoft), my wife, my dog, the cat that owns me, etc. Especially not the cat.
 
WetEV said:
If I was spending Nissan's money, I'd discount the battery packs. Perhaps a warrenty on battery packs that will almost never be hit like 70% at 12 months or 12,000 miles.

To be very clear, this is my personal view as the owner of a Leaf, and not the view of my employer (Microsoft), my wife, my dog, the cat that owns me, etc. Especially not the cat.
:lol:
1
 
surfingslovak said:
WetEV said:
If I was spending Nissan's money, I'd discount the battery packs. Perhaps a warrenty on battery packs that will almost never be hit like 70% at 12 months or 12,000 miles.

To be very clear, this is my personal view as the owner of a Leaf, and not the view of my employer (Microsoft), my wife, my dog, the cat that owns me, etc. Especially not the cat.
:lol:

"You see my cat don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it..."

http://www.hark.com/clips/yggsssmbtj-my-mule-thinks-youre-laughing-at-him" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Looking at this turgid discussion and all the related threads on this forum from the wrong end of the telescope, it seems to me that what we're doing is working through the painful psychological process of paradigm shifting.

Meaning: although the Leaf and other BEVs LOOK like any and all other cars representative of the 100+ year-old paradigm of ICE vehicles, they are radically different in ways that those of us who have adopted them celebrate, but also in ways that we have, until now, been in steadfast denial of.

Specifically, we are now struggling to come to terms with the one reality about BEVs that is most difficult to face: not frustrating range limitations, not patience-straining recharge times, but the wrenching reality that the life-source, the beating heart, the precious center of the Leaf's miracle and mystique, its traction battery, is mortal - it DIES!! The fact that it dies slowly, gradually and almost imperceptibly does nothing to lessen our pain or relieve our distress; it only protracts and amplifies our grief.

And what we are doing here in this forum is nothing less than working out our grief for the realization that the Promethean promise of electric vehicles is fatally flawed, critically compromised by the crippled chemistry its vision depends on.

Once we recognize that the poisoned pea under our stack of mattresses is the inevitability of battery mortality, what difference does it make whether our batteries linger 4% less long in the Arizona heat, or 10% longer in Seattle's mists? THEY ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!!! THEY ARE ALL GOING TO SUCCUMB, INEVITABLY, TO THE MYRIAD STRESSES OF MERE EXISTENCE, OF AGE, OF SERVICE, OF SUBTLE STRESSES AND MINOR ABUSES, and they start degrading, declining, failing, even before they reach the dealers' lots, even before they board the boats for their journey to our shores from Japan. Even before they leave the factories where they were born.

Despite my melodramatic and literary excesses, I do think this recognition underlies and fuels a great deal of the discussion here. We are confronting, and trying to cope with, a new paradigm for personal transportation, one that at first glance appears so promising, approaching perfection. We knew, intellectually, there was a snake in the garden (capacity loss and eventual death) and we told ourselves we were OK with that, we could live with that, and it was easy to live with that as long as we could maintain the illusion that life would go on just as it always has, and Nissan made it easy to sustain the illusion with five-star battery ratings and "hidden" missing capacity bars. Oh, how we love to live in denial! (There are still one or two out there posting and boasting they have no loss...)

But we could hold off reality only so long, and at last the scales have fallen from our eyes. The stage of denial is over (at least for most of us), and the stage of anger is in full expression, leading to the stage we are now entering: bargaining (both with Nissan and among ourselves). Still to come, according to the Kübler-Ross model: depression, then acceptance.

We've a ways to go yet.

Edit: this post is not intended to trivialize or dismiss the "excessive" capacity loss issue.
It is simply meant to offer a different, and hopefully helpful, perspective on our collective experience.
 
timhebb said:
Looking at this turgid discussion and all the related threads on this forum from the wrong end of the telescope, it seems to me that what we're doing is working through the painful psychological process of paradigm shifting.

et seq

It is simply meant to offer a different, and hopefully helpful, perspective on our collective experience.

Well said.

I believe that Nissan should have provided a battery upgrade/replacement path for this vehicle. Nissan's response to this crisis is also patterned along the lines of "conventional" automotive models. They made an effort to describe this "paradigm shift" in the description of the battery pack as the part of the vehicle that would "wear out." What they did in application of this policy is to dig in their heels and say to the owners, in effect that "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred." They hedged their bets by using terms such as "infinite number of variables" to describe things that would impact the range of the vehicle. With apologies to the folks out there measuring their "GIDs," (lol at a new constant in a sea of infinite variables), what did you expect to accomplish? "I can now say without a shadow of doubt and completely without fear of contradiction that the car doesn't go as far as it did last year." Nissan should have started a motor pool. "How far you goin'?" "50 miles? Take that blue one, it's got a new battery, just keep it under 65."

I knew the car was losing range because of the simple fact that it wouldn't go as far. I bailed and sold the car when I noticed I couldn't put as much juice in the battery as I could when it was new so the car could go as far.

Guess what? I'm still driving an EV and I'd buy another EV tomorrow. But then, I'm old, tired, don't need to change the world or drive any farther than the donut shoppe.
 
Hello from Paris where I've been this week attending the Paris Motor Show. It's one of the events that the industry considers a "top tier" show, it's attended by 5,000 or so members of the global media, which means that nearly all top executives of the motor companies -- and of course their PR people (me) -- find themselves there. Though I've been quiet, I've tried to keep pace with the conversation (grew from 20 pages to 42 tonight), and Chelsea Sexton has been sending me updates and reminding me to stay up to speed.

Last week I told you that Andy Palmer was going to answer questions from folks who posted questions to our Facebook page while at the show. (I also grabbed a few questions from some submitted through mynissanleaf.com.) But I am not going to load the video. I've struggled with this, but I think that the final result looks like PR spin. I've watched it several times, and I came to the conclusion that I'd rather be criticized for not putting it up than for putting up a spin piece. It's not Andy's fault, he did his part. But the way we shot it comes off wrong. And in the web world, this stuff lives forever.

I do have a countermeasure, however. Next week, Chelsea is meeting Andy and I've asked her if she would serve as your proxy to ask the questions. I'm going to ask for a simple shoot, just Chelsea and Andy talking. I hope that you will allow us a few additional days to do this the right way.

Jeff
 
Hawk0630 said:
I do have a countermeasure, however. Next week, Chelsea is meeting Andy and I've asked her if she would serve as your proxy to ask the questions. I'm going to ask for a simple shoot, just Chelsea and Andy talking. I hope that you will allow us a few additional days to do this the right way.

Jeff

I appreciate your efforts to get this right the first time! I'm so very glad that you understand that we must start on solid footing somewhere to work through these issues, and I am now quite confident that both you, Andy, and the remainder of Nissan's leadership is keen to get this resolved.

Thanks for putting in the extra effort. You can bet many of we owners do. :D

Tony
 
TonyWilliams said:
Hawk0630 said:
I do have a countermeasure, however. Next week, Chelsea is meeting Andy and I've asked her if she would serve as your proxy to ask the questions. I'm going to ask for a simple shoot, just Chelsea and Andy talking. I hope that you will allow us a few additional days to do this the right way.

Jeff

I appreciate your efforts to get this right the first time! I'm so very glad that you understand that we must start on solid footing somewhere to work through these issues, and I am now quite confident that both you, Andy, and the remainder of Nissan's leadership is keen to get this resolved.

Thanks for putting in the extra effort. You can bet many of we owners do. :D

Tony

+1 The first step to resolving any problem is to admit that there is a problem.
 
Timhebb, I did not take offense or feel like you are trivializing the issue. A lot of what you said is absolutely true and I particularly enjoyed your poetic style. But I'd also like to offer my view of one thing you said:

We knew, intellectually, there was a snake in the garden (capacity loss and eventual death)

We all knew there was a snake in the garden, but Nissan never told the folks in hot climates that their snake was a python, while the folks in Seattle, Portland, Boston, SF, etc. got a Barbados Thread Snake. ;)
 
Hawk0630 said:
I hope that you will allow us a few additional days to do this the right way.

Jeff

I appreciate you being candid with us, but every day Nissan puts off a solution is another day when a bar is lost, since we are still in the 100's here in Phoenix. Every day that passes is another day that someone decides to take Lemon Law protection, files a BBB complaint, gets a television station to interview them, or complains to the motoring media. So while an honest video would be great, actual action from Nissan would be infinitely better.
 
But we could hold off reality only so long, and at last the scales have fallen from our eyes. The stage of denial is over (at least for most of us), and the stage of anger is in full expression, leading to the stage we are now entering: bargaining (both with Nissan and among ourselves). Still to come, according to the Kübler-Ross model: depression, then acceptance.

This proably the best post I have seen in all the thousands I have read on this forum. For a guy like me that has to really stretch the budget to consider buying a Leaf, it is the nub of the whole process.

Thanks
 
timhebb said:
...
And what we are doing here in this forum is nothing less than working out our grief for the realization that the Promethean promise of electric vehicles is fatally flawed, critically compromised by the crippled chemistry its vision depends on.

Once we recognize that the poisoned pea under our stack of mattresses is the inevitability of battery mortality, what difference does it make whether our batteries linger 4% less long in the Arizona heat, or 10% longer in Seattle's mists? THEY ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!!! THEY ARE ALL GOING TO SUCCUMB, INEVITABLY, TO THE MYRIAD STRESSES OF MERE EXISTENCE, OF AGE, OF SERVICE, OF SUBTLE STRESSES AND MINOR ABUSES...

Then again, most cars ever made have also gone to the great Junkyard in the sky. The issue isn't that batteries degrade, it's how quickly a particular pack degrades. There are Rav4 electrics with nearly a decade on original packs delivering good range. There are a number of engineering approaches to make battery life approach that of a gasoline engine, at which point there is no "fatal flaw". And the technology will improve.
 
Back
Top