Nissan LEAF Update from Andy Palmer

[RegGuheert]

Thanks! Thinking about a 2013, but got a 2yr quote from Power Nissan in Tempe for $2k down/$224 mo on 2012 SL. That might be tough to beat, but I do like those leather seats.

Either way, you are not going to know what to do with yourself! Going from ~60 mile range to ~90 is going to bring back fond memories, methinks!

 

[ERG4ALL]

Just to balance things off a bit. We have a 2011 LEAF with over 20,000 miles and have all 12 bars of capacity still visible and we live in Phoenix, albeit in the winter. We have a summer home in the mountains where a really hot day would be 90 degrees and only for a few hours at a time. That is the main reason our battery is in such good shape. We practice other traits that help preserve the battery.
1) We seldom charge to 100% and if so we drive the car right away.
2) We avoid "jack rabbit" starts.
3) We often will not use the freeway but use surface streets instead.
4) When on the freeway we don't exceed 65 mph and try to go slower if traffic permits.
5) Our expectations were different than what Nissan claimed.

Unfortunately Nissan advertised the 100 mile range. However, that was with the EPA LA4 test, which by the way, had an average speed of less than 20 mph. It was city stop and go with only one brief period of 55 mph. In reality most people in large urban areas use freeways frequently at speeds sometime in excess of 70 mph.

Anyway the point is that we never expected to drive the LEAF as we would a gas car and so we are very satisfied with it. I expect that the Nissan sales people are not well enough versed and don't probe enough to see what the buyer's expectation of the car is.

 

[thankyouOB]

you guys make me sad. i hate leasing.
its an emotional thing.

 

[Volusiano]

Just to balance things off a bit. We have a 2011 LEAF with over 20,000 miles and have all 12 bars of capacity still visible and we live in Phoenix, albeit in the winter. We have a summer home in the mountains where a really hot day would be 90 degrees and only for a few hours at a time. That is the main reason our battery is in such good shape.

I was asking you about this on the other thread because I was wondering how you managed to retain 12 bars so far being from Phoenix. And my suspicion was right that it's because your LEAF spends its summer time in Show Low where the temperature is much more moderate than in Phoenix due to its high elevation.

Anyway, I'm curious as to how you manage to move your LEAF between Phoenix and Show Low because clearly there's not enough range to drive back and forth there. So I assume that you must have it towed. Unless there's some charging stations in between? Or perhaps you charge at RV parks in between?

 

[TomT]

Me too, but it is the only thing that made sense with the Leaf. And I'm even more glad that I did now than when I bought it, considering how things have developed.

you guys make me sad. i hate leasing.
its an emotional thing.

 

[ronwright38]

Do the leather Seat have heat or massage?

 

[LEAFfan]

Do the leather Seat have heat or massage?

Just heat

 

[surfingslovak]

Just to balance things off a bit. We have a 2011 LEAF with over 20,000 miles and have all 12 bars of capacity still visible and we live in Phoenix, albeit in the winter. We have a summer home in the mountains where a really hot day would be 90 degrees and only for a few hours at a time. That is the main reason our battery is in such good shape.

I was asking you about this on the other thread because I was wondering how you managed to retain 12 bars so far being from Phoenix. And my suspicion was right that it's because your LEAF spends its summer time in Show Low where the temperature is much more moderate than in Phoenix due to its high elevation.

Yes, absolutely, and I posted the temperature profiles for both locations in the other thread as well. Summers are much cooler in Show Low. Although ERG4ALL seems to think that personal driving style and good battery care were a major factor in all this, we had other owners who were as careful or did even more to protect the battery, and they still experienced capacity bar loss last summer. DesertDenizen would come to mind here. The takeaway from this was that it's the effective long-term temperature at the place of residence, which is the overwhelming contributing factor in battery aging.

This type of debate and repeated questions about the contribution of individual charging and driving patterns to accelerated capacity loss in hot climates prompted several of us to work on a battery aging model, which Stoaty expanded, refined and thoroughly documented in the Wiki. When you look at a prior discussion with Jay, Stoaty's model predicts that about 70% of the capacity fade in Dallas, TX will be caused by calendar aging. This type of loss is driven by the long-term effective battery temperature and average state of charge.

Although it's just an approximation and a best guess, Nissan's comments that some owners could be abusing their battery, which is the main reason for the accelerated aging, are most likely incorrect. Yes, battery care is a contributing factor, but it's the not most important one. In fact, judging from the shared observations from many owners, this type of talk raises questions about the competence and intentions of the Nissan representatives making such remarks. Given that the company must have much better models and information, it would be very desirable to find a good way to communicate this to owners. If they so wish, individual owners could then act accordingly, and do what it takes to maximize the life of their battery.

 

[RWatkins]

... We are actually planning a 2 yr/12,000 mi lease on another Leaf. Like I've said before, we love the car, just didn't love owning such a big question mark in Phoenix. We have nearly 21K miles now, so I think we could eek out 24k mi, even with a similar level of degradation. ...

Is it feasible for you to cool off your battery pack/car significantly in a garage overnight to keep the average temp down in a lower range? If I were given a new lease on LEAF in Phoenix, I'd seriously consider my options in this regard. Perhaps it's not feasible for you. Just a thought.

 

[cwerdna]

Do the leather Seat have heat or massage?

And what does this have to do w/the battery capacity warranty announced in the 1st two posts?

 

[surfingslovak]

Is it feasible for you to cool off your battery pack/car significantly in a garage overnight to keep the average temp down in a lower range? If I were given a new lease on LEAF in Phoenix, I'd seriously consider my options in this regard. Perhaps it's not feasible for you. Just a thought.

One of the early owners in Phoenix had A/C in his garage and lost the first capacity bar after 16 months of ownership. Since we typically get these reports after roughly one year, it apparently had some effect, but it was no panacea. This particular owner was able to trade in his LEAF, and we don't have any additional data points beyond this one. TickTock, one of the most active and respected contributors from Phoenix, added a swamp cooler to his garage last year. Since he did not sell his LEAF, his experience with it could be a good point of reference.

 

[surfingslovak]

This just in (via Grant Thomas on LEAF Talk). I think mwalsh mentioned it in an earlier post:

Click to open

 

[aqn]

I would like Nissan to clarify Leaf battery capacity. Nissan Leaf website still advertise 24 kWh therefore 70% of that is 16.8 kWh. Leaf should do 4 mkWh @ 60 mph in optimal condition. Does it mean that Leaf that is not able to go 67 miles at mentioned speed is eligible for battery warranty repair?

clarification will tell us a lot. keep in mind a full LEAF does not access the top 6.4% (281/300= 93.6%) of the battery nor the bottom 2% leaving 91.6% left. now is this 30% loss from 100% or 91.6%?

And, assuming this is true, why wouldn't Nissan merely change whatever it is on current LEAFs (hardware or software) that prevents accessing the "untapped" battery capacity to convert 8-bar LEAFs to 9-bar or 10-bar LEAFs?

Is there not the possibility that Nissan knew there would be a sh!t storm regarding battery capacity, and knew, even before the first LEAF left the factory, how they would deal with it: "restore" battery capacity by tapping into the previously inaccessible "reserve"? They could not have possibly have done all that hot weather testing in AZ and not know this...

 

[surfingslovak]

They could not have possibly have done all that hot weather testing in AZ and not know this...

I seriously doubt that they "baked" any of their test cars in Phoenix two summers long. Be that as it may, Nissan claims that the batteries are performing as expected in AZ and other hot climates. I believe the problem here is that those expectations were not properly communicated.

Personally, I don't think that they will open up any "protected" or "missing" capacity. This means that they would have to charge each cell in the traction pack to a higher voltage, which might require changes to both the charger and the software. That's just not going to happen IMHO. There is not much reserve left below turtle, only about 2% according to Phil and others. They probably need it to keep the battery from bricking when left in this state.

What they could do however, is open up the region between the low battery warning and turtle a bit. There were a few reports indicating that degraded LEAFs returned more range than anticipated between LB and VLB. Perhaps Nissan should set those thresholds less conservatively, and protect a certain percentage of total remaining pack capacity, instead of a fixed kWh number. I think that type of change might be quite beneficial. The only concern there is that lowering these theresholds would increase the likelihood of getting drivers stranded. I believe that this concern would go away if a Gid meter or a proper SOC meter was on board.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I would like Nissan to clarify Leaf battery capacity. Nissan Leaf website still advertise 24 kWh therefore 70% of that is 16.8 kWh. Leaf should do 4 mkWh @ 60 mph in optimal condition. Does it mean that Leaf that is not able to go 67 miles at mentioned speed is eligible for battery warranty repair?

clarification will tell us a lot. keep in mind a full LEAF does not access the top 6.4% (281/300= 93.6%) of the battery nor the bottom 2% leaving 91.6% left. now is this 30% loss from 100% or 91.6%?

And, assuming this is true, why wouldn't Nissan merely change whatever it is on current LEAFs (hardware or software) that prevents accessing the "untapped" battery capacity to convert 8-bar LEAFs to 9-bar or 10-bar LEAFs?

Is there not the possibility that Nissan knew there would be a sh!t storm regarding battery capacity, and knew, even before the first LEAF left the factory, how they would deal with it: "restore" battery capacity by tapping into the previously inaccessible "reserve"? They could not have possibly have done all that hot weather testing in AZ and not know this...

have to believe they did not have an inkling of the damage and the extreme heat we had just complicated everything. now what did the extra handful of degrees really do? who knows but we all know that in that temperature range, everything becomes extreme.

My Son lived in Vegas for 10 years before moving to Ohio and he said it many times, if its 105º, its ok. but soon as it hits 110, everything changes.

but Nissan simply changing the amount of pack available does not fix anything. most people dont care about SOC or anything else. they just unplug and drive. if the range starts to fail them or the LEAF does not provide the need, the problems start.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Yep. Totally agree. I've visited Vegas 2x in the summer and boy, is it hot. It gets to 105-109+ F in the day and can still be 90 F at night.

I posted some example temps for Phoenix at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=215907#p215907" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The FB friend I refer to is a Priuschatter (and now a moderator there) who I've met and I believe DaveinOlyWA has as well. All 3 of us are mutual FB friends.

 

[Deleted member 770]

Hopefully I'm not going too offtopic here, but has Nissan announced the pricing of a replacement battery pack (or individual modules) yet? I thought I recalled reading somewhere in this (huge) thread that it was supposed to be announced "soon", possibly concurrent with the MY2013 introductions.

If there's a post I missed, please feel free to chastise me and point me to it...

 

[TomT]

Nope. not yet!

Hopefully I'm not going too offtopic here, but has Nissan announced the pricing of a replacement battery pack (or individual modules) yet? I thought I recalled reading somewhere in this (huge) thread that it was supposed to be announced "soon", possibly concurrent with the MY2013 introductions.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

wonder how significant will be price drop comparing to what was reported
in Aug 2012

Need to replace a Nissan Leaf battery? How's £19,392 ($31,753 U.S.) sound?

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/08/03/need-to-replace-a-nissan-leaf-battery-hows-19-392-31-753-u/

 

[thankyouOB]

Hopefully I'm not going too offtopic here, but has Nissan announced the pricing of a replacement battery pack (or individual modules) yet? I thought I recalled reading somewhere in this (huge) thread that it was supposed to be announced "soon", possibly concurrent with the MY2013 introductions.

If there's a post I missed, please feel free to chastise me and point me to it...

at the last nissan gaggle with owners they said the would announce a battery price in the spring, which could mean June 20 or could be sooner.
there was no indication that the price would include installation or that they would standardize pricing of installation, refund for old battery or the new battery, rather than leave us all at the mercy of the dealership. in particular, standardizing install and refund costs would be a must, in my view.