need un biased opinion

[Rmasu]

Hi all,
So I'm still waiting for my garage construction to finish so I can finally bring home a leaf. Then my friend says go look at the volt. So I did, nice car drive reasonably well and looks are OK.

What do you guys think? Originally I wanted a leaf because of the range available would fit my commute. I have two other cars to use if needed a GT3 Porsche and a Toyota Tundra which I drive every day now.

Round trip is 57 miles some elevation changes. I test drove the leaf the distance and it made it with about 13 miles left on the charge. I was driving normally no rain no heater with AC.

The volt would let me get to work 27 miles then about 1/2 way back then gas powered for the last 13 miles. Then charge again at home.

 

[davewill]

Well, I assume you came here to be told get the LEAF, because that's obviously going to be the predominant opinion here! Anyway, it would help to know your location. 57 miles is well within the LEAF's comfort zone unless you have to deal with lots of frigid temps. It could then be a little close.

As you've already pointed out, you'd have to burn gas every day with a Volt, so the LEAF would be a greener choice in general.

 

[billvon]

Is charging at work an option? If so you could make it 100% EV with the Volt.

I drove both and I liked both, but the deciding factor for me was that I didn't need the additional range and I didn't want to haul around that big gas engine all the time.

 

[defiancecp]

Also need to know how consistent that commute is - for example, from my garage to my work parking spot is 9.3 miles-- but I rarely get home with less than 30 miles driven, and sometimes up to 50+. Do you drive any significant distance for lunch, or need to make common side trips? You're on the high end of the comfort zone for a leaf - It's likely that you'd have no trouble with one, making it a far better economic choice than a volt - but since you're on that high end, it pays to consider things like side trips, what your winters are like, and how much interstate driving is involved - a few 'trouble' factors could make it so you're really better off with the volt.

 

[downeykp]

My daughter drives 58 miles round trip to school on rural country roads with a couple of small towns along the way. There is no way she could make that trip in the winter on an 80% charge. She makes it with a bar or two left during the winter months here in Western WA. The bar or two that is left is with little or no heat. She uses a blanket and turns fan on and off to keep window clear. She would not make it if she used the heater. In the spring and fall it is not a problem.
If you are in a warm weather climate your commute should not be a problem. If you need to make side trips you could have some issues.
Good luck.

 

[kubel]

I was originally a Volt fan and a LEAF hater. Initially, I didn't know much about it, but I thought it was a joke. Ugly. Limited range. Cheap. Not practical. No liquid thermal management. Fail.

The symbolism of a series hybrid is what I found attractive- finally the gas engine has been removed as a physical dependency from the automobile. By remaining attached, it blew the Volts purity, IMHO. I'm not saying it didn't make sense from an engineering standpoint. The Volt is an amazing car. Probably more engineering went into the Volt than will ever go into a pure electric. But it disconnected me from the vehicle. Then GM released the price. $40K just killed whatever emotional attachment I had to the car.

I then started looking more carefully at the LEAF and the Ford Focus Electric. I was really hoping for the FFE, but after the price announcement of $40K and my market being pushed back, I had to look at the LEAF as the only option. The more I researched the car, the more I fell in love with it.

For a car that I once despised, I'm surprised I'm so obsessed with it now. I'm about 12 days from delivery.

Now for you: If you don't really mind being attached to oil (nothing wrong with that, it's a splendid fuel) and are willing to spend $5,000 more than a LEAF, I think you will find the Volt to be the better option. Also consider the Ford Focus Electric. The LEAF is a good midrange option. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive, reasonable range, ok build quality.

I have a similar commute of around 53 miles (plus 5-10 mile for lunch time errands) and live in a cold-weather state. I think I'm pushing my luck getting the LEAF (but I can charge at work). But for $5000 of savings compared to the Volt, one could buy a reliable used car or just hang onto their current gas car and keep it insured. That's my plan. Crown Victoria for long trips (which is what it does best), LEAF for everything else. But in all honesty, I don't think I would use it more than just a couple days out of the year.

 

[smkettner]

With at least one other vehicle get the LEAF
No bias here

 

[RegGuheert]

I looked very closely at purchasing the Volt, but in the end I purchased the LEAF because of the following issues:

- $10,000: That was the difference in price between the 2012 Volt and the 2011 LEAF SL demo unit that I purchased (both loaded with the same equipment).

- Volt has only four seats. LEAF has five.

- Back seats in the Volt are "cramped." That's the word my 10yo son used.

- Back seats in the Volt are hot. Putting glass directly above the heads of the rear passengers is a bad idea, IMO.

- The Volt has all of the complexity of a gasoline engine combine with an electric drive. I seriously doubt it will be as reliable as a LEAF.

- The capacity of the battery in the Volt is smaller than the capacity of the battery in the LEAF. What that means is that if you drive the same trips in the two cars you will be cycling the Volt battery with a higher depth-of-discharge. (Although your case is a little different, since you would use som gas in your Volt trips.) Cycling a battery with higher DOD results in a shorter battery life. GM would like people to think that the 40-mile range will magically be there forever, but I'm willing to bet it will only be there until it's not!

- I have a Honda Civic Hybrid that gets 48 MPG. Why would I want to drive a Volt on gasoline that only gets 35 MPG?

Those are my reasons. YMMV.

ETA:
- The EVSE that comes with the LEAF can be upgraded to a full-power EVSE for about $350.00, all told, which is much cheaper than purchasing a wall charger. The EVSE that comes with the Volt is not upgradable.

 

[Boomer23]

What is your driving (pun) motive to get an EV? If the LEAF will satisfy that motive more completely, the LEAF should be your choice.

For me, I wanted to drive completely on electricity and my wife and I both wanted to experience life with an EV, with all of its pleasures and any sacrifices we encountered, so that we could see if driving electric truly was the right choice for us. Having home solar power available for part of the charging was another motive for us. And then of course all of the motivations to get off the oil addiction, use domestic power, and produce less CO2. For us, the LEAF met those needs better than the Volt did. We also have a Prius for our longer distance driving, and a LEAF and an hybrid make a reasonable combination for a family with our lifestyle.

Living in California, the Volt was even less attractive to me because it originally didn't qualify for the state CARB rebate and it didn't qualify for the HOV lane stickers. The new low emissions Volt qualifies for both, but the CARB rebate is lower for the Volt than for the LEAF, $1500 vs $2500.

Oh and I agree with Reg above about wanting five seats rather than four, not wanting to cart a gas engine, exhaust system, fuel tank and all of that around with me while I drove primarily on E power. I also doubted that GM would get a car as complex as the Volt down right the first time. They seem to have done a great job, as it turns out, but time may still tell.

 

[SanDust]

Unless you want to plan your life around your car get the Volt.

First there is the commuting range issue. My commute is 33 miles. The Leaf works for that. If your commute was 40 miles I'd say that would be fine. Above that it's problematic. People here will say "the Leaf can go for more than 40 miles!" Completely true. And completely irrelevant. Unless you lead a very boring life "your commute" miles won't always equal the number of miles you need to drive. Things come up. A doctor's appointment. A lunch date. Meeting friends after work. Those type things will add miles to your commute. Usually I get home with five bars, but several times a month I get back with two. I've made it back with the VLB warning on. If my base commute were close to 60 miles I'd either be on a flatbed or taking another car. And this is with a new battery and very mild temperatures.

Which brings up the second problem: What are you going to take on longer trips? A hundred fifty mile trip in the Volt is no big deal. Not possible in the Leaf. And if it's not possible in the Leaf, and you have a Leaf, then you're having to take the Tundra or the Porsche, neither of which is ideal.

 

[IBELEAF]

My "un biased" recommendation to all has been to not get current Leaf and if you can wait either for 2013 version and also consider upcoming plugins from Ford, Mitsu etc... Also, the current Leaf is still in early adopter stage so I will most likely will be selling it for 2013 version.

I do prefer Volt looks and it's ability to go longer distance, but the price difference of over $6k made the choice easier for me at that time.

 

[shrink]

I actually have a LEAF and I just bought a Volt, too. I'll be more knowledgeable once the Volt arrives next week, but for your situation, it sounds like you're looking for a work commuter and don't want to use gas. If that's the case, I think the LEAF is the better choice. A lot of Volt owners hate and try to avoid using gas, but for your commute, gas will always be used in a Volt.

I don't know your lifestyle, but if you have a lot of lunches out or errands while at work or on the way home, you'd probably need at least to trickle charge at work. But if you mostly head straight to and from work, I imagine you'd be fine.

You have the luxury of two other vehicles for range and capacity.

 

[LeafPowerIsIxE]

My Leaf Experience to Date:

I bought the Leaf after detailed study, waiting nearly a year on the deposit list, and being totally stoked about an electric car. I did the garage EV system, the car pool stickers, the EV parking sticker, bike hitch, horn mod, etc. All in.

I had a 51 mile RT commute to work. No problem since the Leaf was rated at 100 miles. I figured even if I got 70-80% of that, no problem.

That was last March. Today I drive a 2012 Audi A6, having shelled out another $70K for a car that gets me to and from work.

My Leaf has 9,000 miles on it and sits in the garage looking pretty and going out on weekend drives (range limited, of course).

The problem with my Leaf purchase is simple. I drive 51 miles of 65+ MPH driving to get to my office in Sorrento Valley. I turtled the car four times the first month I owned it because there is no 100 Mile range. No 90, no 80, no 70, and barely 60 if you treat it nice. I have rolled down the final hill to my house with 0-miles and no bars left too many times.

I can make work and back, if I baby it like I am driving on probation. Any given day of the week you'll see a couple Leafs dragging their feet across the US-56 at 60mph. Because the car can't make it to/from North County into the Triangle easily. And that assumes you only go to/from. Mix a lunch run, dental, or a run to Vons, and you're out of business.

There is no 100 mile range and never was for anyone who drives the freeway, uses A/C or heat (ya-we need both in San Diego), or has hills.

I love the car. Just failed me miserably as my intended commuter.

So to the blue one, the two whites, the black, and the two reds I pass each evening in my white Quattro, I know why you're driving 60mph. Problem is - no one else does.

My Advice: Wait for a longer range EV. The concept is solid, but the current technology fit is not right for everyone.

 

[Juiced]

Rmasu

You have nearly the same situation that I do. We have a 2011 Leaf, 2003 350Z, and 2007 Tundra. I drive the Leaf over fairly steep terrain (700 feet altitude to 2,500 feet , to sea level and back several times a week. With errands it is an 80 mile round trip, no sweat. I use the Z for occasional longer trips to LA, until someone develops the level 3 charging network we were promised. The vast majority of my driving is green and exhaust free plus I get to enjoy a real sports car once in a while. The mix is much like a Volt, except the Volt ain't no sports car!

 

[IBELEAF]

That was last March. Today I drive a 2012 Audi A6, having shelled out another $70K for a car that gets me to and from work.

While I agree with most things you say about Leaf range affected by hills, freeway and climate, you don't need to shell out $70k for a gas guzzler to get you to and from work. Sounds like you just have different preferences and don't care about the gas savings.

 

[LeafPowerIsIxE]

That was last March. Today I drive a 2012 Audi A6, having shelled out another $70K for a car that gets me to and from work.

While I agree with most things you say about Leaf range affected by hills, freeway and climate, you don't need to shell out $70k for a gas guzzler to get you to and from work. Sounds like you just have different preferences and don't care about the gas savings.

Agree - I bought a 2012 Prius-V in December and kept it 3-months. Complete POS - noisy, low-tech, low perfomance rattle trap. Sold it in March and transitioned into the A6. And its not about "need" - its about "can". The Leaf matched my passion for technology, performance, and "trick" - there is nothing out there right now to compete in these catagories. I want all-electric. The hybrid didn't inspire me because it still took gasoline. That issue aside, and the lack of availability of the "S" - I retreated to the best mix of technology and performance I could get with my "3rd" car budget.

BTW - you think the A6 is a "guzzler"? I get on average 23-26mpg. What are you getting in your ICE?

 

[IBELEAF]

I used to get 20 mpg in our CUV, but that's mainly because how I drive and hills... I personally consider anything below 30 mpg a gas guzzler, it's subjective of course. Also, agree with you on Prius. Last week test drove fully loaded V, it's a night and day with Leaf experience. Still waiting for a good plugin alternative...

 

[LeafPowerIsIxE]

I used to get 20 mpg in our CUV, but that's mainly because how I drive and hills... I personally consider anything below 30 mpg a gas guzzler, it's subjective of course. Also, agree with you on Prius. Last week test drove fully loaded V, it's a night and day with Leaf experience. Still waiting for a good plugin alternative...

I am not sure I get this "plug-in" ideology.

If I bought a Volt (which would NEVER happen), I'd have to be thinking I could manage the limited range the plug-in provides. Short commute? Retired? Meaning I can live in the 15-30 mile plug in range. But then what do you do about the gas in the tank, which begins "spoiling" after 30-45 days?

I understand hybrids - they are just not for me in this class of vehicle, as I want all-electric. I also want a future where there are no gas stations. Part of that attitude comes from my Desert Storm experience - we need energy independence - be it electric, fuel cell, propane, or ???.

So to Volt owners: if you can manage the constraint of the electric range, how do you manage the "aging" gasoline in your tank?

 

[Clippy]

What do you guys think?

Round trip is 57 miles some elevation changes. I test drove the leaf the distance and it made it with about 13 miles left on the charge. I was driving normally no rain no heater with AC.

My experience is similar to that of LeafPowerIsIxE. My response was to get another BEV with slightly longer (and therefore sufficient for my needs) range. The impact of "high speed" (Nissan calls anything >55 mph high speed) driving and cold (in my case under +10 degrees C) temperatures is disastrous to the range of the Leaf. Throw in any climate control use and you'll be walking in under 60 miles.

I still use the Leaf for the purpose which I believe it fits best, an urban, non-freeway family runabout. I stay off the freeways and have exceeded 100 miles per charge often. That being said, my Leaf has an appointment at Carmax tomorrow. If the money's right, adios Leaf. It's a great car, wonderfully executed and if it had the battery capacity of the wife's BMW ActiveE, I'd not be considering a sale.

In your case, unless I could be guaranteed a place to charge at work, I wouldn't even consider a Leaf.

If you've got the Benjamins for a GT3, you sound like Tesla material.

 

[IBELEAF]

@LeafPowerIsIxE Sounds like Tesla S would fit your needs and price. Cheaper at base config then 70k A6, has better range then Leaf and all the coolness factor that comes with new EV. As for me, I can't afford switching cars every 3 month, so I was looking for an affordable car that saves money on gas and offers smooth ride among other things. Any budget or hybrid car did not have what I needed. Leaf, while not perfect in terms of range, met my main needs.