Lizard Pack Holding Up
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TomT
Well-known member
My range test is always to turtle, yes...
drees said:
TomT
Well-known member
Check the part number on the invoice. If it is an E or later, it is a Lizard...
tkdbrusco said:
Deleted member 770
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Since the latest posts have been about 2011 Lizard Pack retrofits (and since I live literally blocks from TomT), I'll update my previous post. I have a 2011 SL-e with a Lizard Pack (-E variant), installed in April and surviving one San Fernando Valley summer thus far:
BTW, here's the actual numbers (about 10,000 miles of driving):
So as you can see, this new Lizard battery has suffered a 10% capacity (AHr) loss in about 8 months. What's interesting is that as Tom said, the capacity drop is continuing even though colder weather is setting in. I'm not a happy camper... :x
Update: Updated graph showing correct SOH values
BTW, here's the actual numbers (about 10,000 miles of driving):
- GIDs went from 278 to 259
- AHr went from 66.14 to 59.749
- SOH went from 100% to 93%
- Hx went from a high of 102.30 (about a week after the new battery was installed) to 89.47
So as you can see, this new Lizard battery has suffered a 10% capacity (AHr) loss in about 8 months. What's interesting is that as Tom said, the capacity drop is continuing even though colder weather is setting in. I'm not a happy camper... :x
Update: Updated graph showing correct SOH values
TomT
Well-known member
Interesting that your stats track mine almost exactly (and I am usually doing 80% charges)... Based on the observed numbers and reports, I'm inclined to call the Lizard a fail so far...
I expect the 30Khr battery to do slightly better simply because it will have less charge cycles, on average...
I expect the 30Khr battery to do slightly better simply because it will have less charge cycles, on average...
ahagge said:Since the latest posts have been about 2011 Lizard Pack retrofits (and since I live literally blocks from TomT), I'll update my previous post. I have a 2011 SL-e with a Lizard Pack (-E variant), installed in April and surviving one San Fernando Valley summer thus far:
BTW, here's the actual numbers (about 10,000 miles of driving):
- GIDs went from 278 to 259
- AHr went from 66.14 to 59.749
- SOH went from 100% to 93%
- Hx went from a high of 102.30 (about a week after the new battery was installed) to 89.47
So as you can see, this new Lizard battery has suffered a 10% capacity (AHr) loss in about 8 months. What's interesting is that as Tom said, the capacity drop is continuing even though colder weather is setting in. I'm not a happy camper... :x
LeafMuranoDriver
Well-known member
Most of my stats are very close to yours but my SOH and AHr seem inverted. SOH is still 99% (higher than you) but AHr is 55.1 (lower than you).ahagge said:
Like you, I really expected the cold weather to stop the degradation but my stats continued to go down. Over the last week my stats have stayed about the same though...
GIDs: 259 to 260
kWh: 20.1 to 20.2
AHr: 55.10 to 55.36
SOH: 99%
Hx: 83.00% to 83.54%
Prior to this past week, over the past couple months, the stats went down just about every single charge.
I still have some hope with mine since the SOH is 99% but because of the low AHr I'm watching everyday to see if I lose a bar. I'm thinking 2015's & Lizard Batteries have a different measurement for the bar loss.
Has any 2015 / Lizard Battery lost a bar yet?
Evoforce
Well-known member
TomT said:
It is a lizard and it had the adapter installed to accommodate for the pack difference.
I don't like reporting these results, any more than anyone, including myself, likes to hear them. I don't want to believe it either. Also keep in mind, the first battery was changed out at approximately 22,500 miles.
This now one year old battery, at 7,300 miles x 2 years at 11% SOH loss first year plus an approximate 2% loss per month after that = 35% @ 15,600 miles. Then add approximately another 1- 3 months to loose another 2ish% to get to a 63% SOH for a 4 bar looser at around 18,000 miles.
I wish I could report this differently. It only leads me to come up with something to actively cool the battery. The batteries 12 month/12,000 mi warranty will expire close to the end of the month. But I am still covered by the original capacity warranty of 5 years/60,000 miles till fall of 2016.
Neither of those are expected to help with this second battery. If I don't develop something onboard to cool these battery packs (8 bar car gets warranty battery the end of January 2016, if on schedule), I will have to outlay $6,500 in another approximately 1.3 years (lizard car battery replaced Dec 2014) and another $6,500 in approximately 2.3 years (8 bar car battery replacement scheduled for Jan 2016) for these 2 cars to keep them above 8 bars.
So... $6,500 for 2.3 years of driving for each car unless something changes in cooling or batteries. That is a cost of $250 per month per car for battery fuel cost not counting charging costs.
Keep in mind I really like these cars... battery life... not so much love
I think I've said it before, but my pack last year was at 273 at its lowest during the coldest winter months and came back up to as high as 289 during the summer months, now its back down to 269 during its second winter. I wouldn't be surprised if these packs have numbers that climb back up as the weather heats up. That being said, they are awfully low right now.
I also noticed that it seems to be the replacement packs for old cars that are doing the worst. So maybe there's something else at play here, such as the packs for replacement cars have been sitting in storage for a year or more, maybe in a hot room, or maybe since they weren't connected to a BMS system for that period of time, there was some negative impact on them as a result?
I also noticed that it seems to be the replacement packs for old cars that are doing the worst. So maybe there's something else at play here, such as the packs for replacement cars have been sitting in storage for a year or more, maybe in a hot room, or maybe since they weren't connected to a BMS system for that period of time, there was some negative impact on them as a result?
My advice (what I plan to do). Is to put a deposit on a Model 3 in April and dump my Leaf right before my Model 3 arrives. I hope that I will have 12 bars still at that point, but I'm feeling less and less confident about this. At this rate, I'll lose my first bar next winter. Getting $11K for my car would make me happy, although I think $10K is more realistic given the current prices of used 2013 models. Unless Nissan is offering a 30kwh replacement pack for my Leaf, there's zero incentive for me to keep it. Even if they do offer a 30kwh pack, it needs to be less than $6K to make it worth it.
Valdemar
Well-known member
tkdbrusco said:
BMS physically resides inside the battery, but being connected to it makes no difference if the battery is not cycled. My theory is there is some difference in the manufacturing process, e.g. they have surplus of old parts and say some packs get old cathode style depending on the production run.
Evoforce
Well-known member
Per law, they are to be lizard packs with the supposedly better heat resistance. Do we trust that? Did we trust that they were better? I have to face the fact that the lizard batteries are not better in the Arizona climate. Remember, I have had the luxury of tracking this lizard battery with the cars past old battery performance, as well as pace it with a completely different but same year car and it's original battery performance side by side under the almost identical conditions. I am not able to deny what I have witnessed with my own eyes even though I want to...
Valdemar
Well-known member
Evoforce said:
Per law the replacement packs must be the latest tech, nowhere does it say they the latest tech has to have better heat resistance.
Evoforce
Well-known member
Valdemar said:
Fine hairs are that it has to be the lizard or better. And... they sold it to the courts and the public that the battery is more heat tolerant because that addresses the flaw that shortens battery life. If you want to think that the latest tech isn't intended to improve upon it's Archilles heal, you live in a different world than I do. So technically, they could not provide less than lizard durability. Now, could we have been too hopeful (including Nissan) on it's durability? It seems so! There may be a reason that the 30kWh battery suddenly emerged. Nissan may have already proven to themselves that the (lizard) wasn't going to hold up any better, even though they thought it might, initially.
Valdemar
Well-known member
Evoforce said:
I don't think Nissan ever admitted there was a flaw in their battery design. The "latest tech" clause was added after judge Kozinski objected the first form of the settlement. My understanding is Nissan never attempted to sell "Lizard" to the courts, but it was communicated during informal meetings with owners bringing hopes they improved their design to the point it can be used in hot climates. It happens that the latest tech today is "Lizard" whatever it is, but given the history we know I wouldn't be too surprised if they fed us the idea that Lizard was better just to buy some time before the 30kWh pack is out. For all I know 24kWh Lizard can be the same pack that went into 2013 MY, and what they referred to as Lizard is the new 30Kwh pack.
I'm pretty sure that they did something to the 2015 packs that made them different from earlier packs. I'm not sure how much, but there is communication referenced from Nissan that 2015 Models, as well as those that can be purchased for $5500 are the new "heat tolerant" packs. I'm assuming that the replacement packs being the "latest tech" means that they must be these packs as well. There's also an indication that they are different in that they are the first batteries to read 292 Gids when new. This reading may be a result of them freeing up unused capacity, or it could be some other change, but it is a difference none the less. My guess is that they aren't really that different from the the 2013/14 MY packs. They just tweaked something here and there, added some additives, or maybe even squeezed a slight bit more capacity in it and they ate away at that as the pack degraded? Who knows? One thing is for sure, it wasn't the silver bullet, just good enough to avoid warranty replacements and keep people tied over until the next cars come along.
cwerdna
Well-known member
I haven't followed your posts, and garaging habits, but is the car outside the garage at night, for at least part of it? Is the garage air conditioned?Evoforce said:
I didn't have Leaf Spy until near the end of lease of my first '13. And there was no cheap way of monitoring battery temps early on.
Now that I own a used '13 and have been watching Leaf battery temps, I do see what people are talking about re: the large thermal mass of the battery and it taking a long while to adjust to ambient temps. Charging even at L2 definitely heats it. Driving at highway speeds where ambient temps are lower than battery temps still causing battery heating. I'm not surprised about heating due to internal resistance.
I used to always drive my leased Leaf straight into the garage when I arrive home. W/my owned one, if it's cool outside and much cooler than garage temps, I leave it on the driveway for a few hours to cool down a bit more quickly before pulling it onto the garage. For example, if it's 45 F outside, it might be 57 F+ in my garage. And, at night, it might get down to high 30s or low 40s... garage may never get that low. But, I don't want to leave it out all night.
I'm hoping that slows down degradation, a bit.
Also, for you, assuming you want your pack to last longer, is it feasible for you to either charge your battery when it's cooler or to charge it so that the pack basically reaches ambient temp? Example: If it's 50 F and it'll rise to 70 F, can you charge it at the 50 F time so that it basically ends up being ambient? That might be better than charging it when the pack is already at say 70 F and charging raises the temp further.
Evoforce
Well-known member
cwerdna said:
Well... I am a project guy, and my garage is never available for daily driver cars. Lizard car sits over grass and (8 bar car) sits on a concrete driveway. With Lizard car, the first owner garaged it in climate control and it still required a new battery at 22,000 miles.
I timer charge my cars between 11:00 at night and 5:00 in the morning charge window. We get an EV charge discount in that time frame. If we are out and about though, occasionally QC when needed no matter what the temps are outside.
(8 bar car) will shortly have a lizard battery installed (a week or two?). I feel that I need to find some time to engineer some cooling directly to the traction batteries as Nissan should already have done. As if I have any free time already!
Nubo
Well-known member
tkdbrusco said:
Next up: The "penguin" battery. :lol:
TomT
Well-known member
In a nutshell, my experience to date seems to show that the Lizard is something of a fraud (or at least a shell game)...
mkjayakumar
Well-known member
I have a 2014 that does not have a Lizard, but the way the degradation was almost nil for the first 15K miles and how it rapidly degraded to the extent I have the same capacity in this 2014 model now (230 gids on a full charge at 36k and 24 months) as my previous 2011 model in that same time frame and mileage.
It does look like there was one kWh or two hidden that was released slowly that gave an illusion that there was no degradation initially, and this will also put me over the warranty mileage of 60k miles before I lose the 4th bar.
it does smell like a variation of diesel-gate
It does look like there was one kWh or two hidden that was released slowly that gave an illusion that there was no degradation initially, and this will also put me over the warranty mileage of 60k miles before I lose the 4th bar.
it does smell like a variation of diesel-gate
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