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DougMarker

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
46
I love driving carefully to save energy. But, I also love the feeling of full acceleration from a complete stop. How much energy am I really wasting using full acceleration from 0 to say, 40 MPH? If I do it 5 times or so, will it really affect my mileage? Can anyone with a SOC meter help me?
 
Why do you worry about mileage when the electric fuel cost is practically 1/10 of the cost of gasoline? Go ahead and accelerate if you like (as long as you're doing it safely).

I can see having to drive conservatively if you need to squeeze the most out of your range on a particular trip. But if range is not an issue on a trip, why do you need to conserve too much? You're already conserving enough by virtue of your car being electric. And I don't think you'll be wasting that much energy anyway from a handful of quick accelerations. So go ahead and live a little!
 
Volusiano said:
Why do you worry about mileage when the electric fuel cost is practically 1/10 of the cost of gasoline?
Speaking for myself, saving energy is part of decreasing carbon emissions. We aren't getting a free ride from any source of energy. Even PV panels require fossil fuel use for their manufacture, transport, and often for installation. It's a small contribution, but one I can make without significant effort. Adds up to a lot of KWh over the lifetime of the car.
 
I would make an educated guess that the Leaf's electric motor is around 95% efficient between 1/4 to 3/4 power. At full power it probably drops to about 80% efficiency. Of course, this is just a guess, but you have to start somewhere. Now consider that if you accelerate faster, you can travel at a slightly lower top speed and still reach your destination at the same time. So you save a slight amount of energy by not going quite as fast. I think after doing a boatload of complicated math, you will find that it makes hardly any difference what rate you accelerate. In fact, if you accelerate too slowly I think you'd use slightly more energy because you'd either be on the road a bit longer or have to go a bit faster to make up for it. This is an electric car, there is no engine, it's a whole different world. :) To conserve energy, don't look at acceleration rate, look at reducing your speed. But as for me, if I have plenty of range I like to enjoy it. ;)
 
Stoaty said:
Volusiano said:
Why do you worry about mileage when the electric fuel cost is practically 1/10 of the cost of gasoline?
Speaking for myself, saving energy is part of decreasing carbon emissions. We aren't getting a free ride from any source of energy. Even PV panels require fossil fuel use for their manufacture, transport, and often for installation. It's a small contribution, but one I can make without significant effort. Adds up to a lot of KWh over the lifetime of the car.
To me, if the OP gets some enjoyment out of being able to accelerate freely thanks to the virtue of the electric motor giving instant high torque, then it has value as entertainment. We already spend a lot of money (and using up a lot of fossil fuel in process) for the sake of entertainment in this country. So if the OP wants to enjoy and take pleasure in something that's already available and inherent in his car for very little cost, he should born no guilt to take advantage of it. After all, it's not like he wants to accelerate on a Hummer or anything like that.
 
It is very critical that future electric car users see these vehicles as a fun way to get around as well as a green form of transport. That's the reason you have nascent electric motorsports groups and the reason the Tesla is so popular. There are many who look at cars as more than a way to get from A to B and we need to attract them. So I say "put the pedal to the metal" as long as you do it safely and within the law. After owning several sports cars throughout my life, I'm having a ball driving the Leaf and I don't have my eyes glued to the "trees" or the myriad of gauges available to me in order to drive efficiently. I don't even drive in Eco mode! Oh no! Not that!
 
johnr said:
I would make an educated guess that the Leaf's electric motor is around 95% efficient between 1/4 to 3/4 power. At full power it probably drops to about 80% efficiency. Of course, this is just a guess, but you have to start somewhere. Now consider that if you accelerate faster, you can travel at a slightly lower top speed and still reach your destination at the same time. So you save a slight amount of energy by not going quite as fast. I think after doing a boatload of complicated math, you will find that it makes hardly any difference what rate you accelerate. In fact, if you accelerate too slowly I think you'd use slightly more energy because you'd either be on the road a bit longer or have to go a bit faster to make up for it. This is an electric car, there is no engine, it's a whole different world. :) To conserve energy, don't look at acceleration rate, look at reducing your speed. But as for me, if I have plenty of range I like to enjoy it. ;)
Motor losses won't be too bad, but you also need to take into account battery, inverter and wire losses at the higher power / current levels. - Wait, I just read the graph axis and it says "This graph shows the efficiency of the electric power train" - so that presumable includes the inverter efficiency, but I don't know if that includes or excludes battery efficiency.
The graph came from SAE Vehicle Electrification Nissan LEAF Special Edition .

If it adds to yours and other's enjoyment of the car and you use renewable energy to recharge it, or green energy / wind certificates etc... - go for it.

If you got the Ecototality Blink charger and are in the EVProject, remember that the US Department Of Energy (DOE), Nissan and other partners are collecting data about how you drive and charge. I imagine that includes miles/kWh. I don't know exactly what they are collecting and how they are analysing it. For example they can't (or at least SHOULDN'T) assume that all the enrgy from the Blink charger goes into your LEAF - you might have two LEAFs, a LEAF and a Volt, or in my case a LEAF and a RAV4 EV (via a J1772 to NEMA 14-50 adapter, GFI protected by J1772).

Sometime I'm playing the eco game - 46 miles at 58 to 65 MPH to get 5 mi/kWh. A couple times a week, there an opprtune time to launch the LEAF, and I'm in the mood, so I drop the pedal to the floor from a stop and enjoy the ride! Though I probably only do that once or twice a week. When the family is in the car, I drive a bit faster because they have speed anxiety and wnat to go 70 mph, even though it only makes two minutes difference in our arrival time - something they'd never notice if they weren't watching the spedometer or watching cars in the really fast lane.
 
garygid said:
Looks like constant low-torque cruising is least efficient, at any speed.
The chart is only plotting motor efficiency, and doesn't include inverter or battery losses incurred at higher power/current levels.
 
This may help. From another post:

"Figuring the motor RPM should be very straight forward, and at 95-ish mph, you should have had 10,300 RPM, therefore 47.5 mph would be 5,150 RPM..."
 
garygid said:
Looks like constant low-torque cruising is least efficient, at any speed.
-but more efficient than going faster. I think the low torque region is where the power output is so low, you'd actually be loosing speed from friction, tires, and aerodynamic lossses, at least above, say 35 mph. With peak efficiency at 95% and the lowest efficiency at 85%, the losses vary by only 10% and are much less than aerodynamic losses for most of that power curve if your going over 50 mph. Even at it's lowest efficiency, I wouldn't worry too much about drive train losses as I would about aerodynamic losses and maximizing regen when braking is required, end even then only if I'm on a trip that needs most of the pack's range. Cruising speed will still be a much more important impact to overall energy consumption and range.
 
I've had the Leaf for two weeks. In that short time, I've found it amazing how many folks in gas-powered cars REALLY don't like being beaten off the line by what they see as an "Eco-box" car. The amount of noise and angst that emanates from those cars is really quite comical. I'm having a fun time with this, but I do need to be careful since I never know if some of these drivers might be a bit unstable :).
 
I am having a lot of fun with the 'zippy' (but safe) starts, and passengers are always pleasantly surprised with the acceleration.

I am not even trying to drive efficiently and still beat my Prius in cost per mile by about 2.5 to 1.
 
garygid said:
Looks like constant low-torque cruising is least efficient, at any speed.
Torque and energy are very closely related, are they not? I believe the bubbles on the dash are a very rough measure of the energy being expended at any point in time. So is there any mapping between bubbles and torque? I know it can't be this simple, but there are 9 power bubbles and, according to the SAE chart, 275 Nm torque max. So could we be talking about 30 Nm per bubble? Obviously that can't be right, because I have seen at least 7 bubbles accelerating hard at 60 to merge into freeway traffic. The chart says I'm limited to well under 150 Nm at 60 mph, not the 210 this would represent.

But if it were right, one bubble would keep you above the evil inefficiency Gary noticed.

Ray
 
mbutter said:
I am having a lot of fun with the 'zippy' (but safe) starts, and passengers are always pleasantly surprised with the acceleration.

All of my other cars, I never rested my head on the headrest. But one day, I had to 'race' this ICE that was showing off, so I floored it (left him waaay behind) and hit my head hard against the headrest as did my passenger. I've never had a car including my Celica GT-S that did that so now I'm getting used to resting my head back and noticed it's much more comfortable than any other because it's not so far back. Have you had this happen yet? :lol:
 
planet4ever said:
garygid said:
Looks like constant low-torque cruising is least efficient, at any speed.
Torque and energy are very closely related, are they not? I believe the bubbles on the dash are a very rough measure of the energy being expended at any point in time. So is there any mapping between bubbles and torque? I know it can't be this simple, but there are 9 power bubbles and, according to the SAE chart, 275 Nm torque max. So could we be talking about 30 Nm per bubble? Obviously that can't be right, because I have seen at least 7 bubbles accelerating hard at 60 to merge into freeway traffic. The chart says I'm limited to well under 150 Nm at 60 mph, not the 210 this would represent.

But if it were right, one bubble would keep you above the evil inefficiency Gary noticed.

Ray
"Torque and energy are very closely related, are they not?" - Well, yes they are! Especially when you put RPM into the mix! My understanding is Torque X RPM = Power. In an Electric Motor - more torque tends to mean more current, Amps, and higher RPM tends to mean more voltage.

Hmmm... leave it to Wikipedia!! Relationship between torque, power and energy

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