Is it normal to get only 2.5 miles per kwh in winter with a new Leaf?

[rcm4453]

I’ve been driving my new ’16 SV Leaf for a few days now. Mostly freeway driving around 65mph. It’s been rather cold, single digits at night maybe teens for daytime highs. I run the heat, heated steering wheel/seat but it says it only reduces my range by 10 miles so that can’t be it. I’ve read others getting 3.0 to 3.5 miles per KWH in the winter so wonder why mine is so low? Would this indicate something wrong with my car?

 

[aarond12]

Honestly, that sounds about right. You're talking about COLD temperatures.

Are you pre-heating your car? Are you driving through snow? The heated steering wheel and heated seat aren't affecting your range/efficiency much, but your heat is. 65MPH on the highway also does, so if you can safely do so, slow down for best efficiency.

 

[jpadc]

I’ve been driving my new ’16 SV Leaf for a few days now. Mostly freeway driving around 65mph. It’s been rather cold, single digits at night maybe teens for daytime highs. I run the heat, heated steering wheel/seat but it says it only reduces my range by 10 miles so that can’t be it. I’ve read others getting 3.0 to 3.5 miles per KWH in the winter so wonder why mine is so low? Would this indicate something wrong with my car?

They are not driving 65 and its not in the teens where they live. The indicator that tells you it only reduces your range by 10 miles is lying to you. People here call it the guess-o-meter (GOM). In those conditions you will likely have about a 50 mile range.

Turn the heat to a lower setting (like 62 degrees) and slow down

 

[rcm4453]

Honestly, that sounds about right. You're talking about COLD temperatures.

Are you pre-heating your car? Are you driving through snow? The heated steering wheel and heated seat aren't affecting your range/efficiency much, but your heat is. 65MPH on the highway also does, so if you can safely do so, slow down for best efficiency.

No snow on the roads at the moment. I leave a heated garage on my way into work so no pre-heating then but when I leave work at 11:30pm I do pre-heat for about 5-10 minutes. I will slow down to 60mph to see if that helps.

 

[jpadc]

I leave a heated garage on my way into work so no pre-heating then but when I leave work at 11:30pm I do pre-heat for about 5-10 minutes. I will slow down to 60mph to see if that helps.

From what you have indicated I assume you have a LEAF with Carwings (an SL or an SV) so you have the heat pump. Now it will not help you at all in those very cold temps as it will be all resistance heat much below 32 degrees or so. Preheating in a heated garage (using power from the EVSE) won't help much as the car will just use the heat pump as it will think its warm enough "outside" and not warm up the resistance heater which might be a little help.

If you don't have a long commute (less than 45-50 miles total per day), drive whatever speed you want, but if you are worried about making it home, my advise is skip the preheat at work and slow down.

 

[LeftieBiker]

50 miles range for a 2016 SV, just resistance heat below 32F, come on folks - let's be more accurate! A 2016 SV with 30kwh pack should have about 70 miles of range in those adverse conditions, and the heatpump keeps producing some heat down to the single digits. It does get progressively replaced by the resistance heater, but that doesn't become a huge factor until you get below about 25F. The OP is getting 2.5 M/KWH because of their speed on the highway (made worse by very dense frigid air) and heater use. Slowing to 60MPH and setting the heat to no more than 72 (or to 80 with the fan on Low) should bring the reading up to 3.0 or so. They should also make sure the tires are inflated to about 38-40psi for Winter driving, as the dealer will have inflated them to a too-low 36, with the cold lowering that even more.

 

[rcm4453]

50 miles range for a 2016 SV, just resistance heat below 32F, come on folks - let's be more accurate! A 2016 SV with 30kwh pack should have about 70 miles of range in those adverse conditions, and the heatpump keeps producing some heat down to the single digits. It does get progressively replaced by the resistance heater, but that doesn't become a huge factor until you get below about 25F. The OP is getting 2.5 M/KWH because of their speed on the highway (made worse by very dense frigid air) and heater use. Slowing to 60MPH and setting the heat to no more than 72 (or to 80 with the fan on Low) should bring the reading up to 3.0 or so. They should also make sure the tires are inflated to about 38-40psi for Winter driving, as the dealer will have inflated them to a too-low 36, with the cold lowering that even more.

I will try what you recommended and see if I can get it up to 3.0. I was just concerned that maybe something wasn't quite right with the car with readings so low when most others are getting way better.

 

[BrockWI]

Today I had to do a highway run, I usually take surface streets and get about 3.0 Today was 2.4 for the same run with the heat on at 70 mph. over in Green Bay, 15F today.

 

[jpadc]

50 miles range for a 2016 SV, just resistance heat below 32F, come on folks - let's be more accurate! A 2016 SV with 30kwh pack should have about 70 miles of range in those adverse conditions, and the heatpump keeps producing some heat down to the single digits. It does get progressively replaced by the resistance heater, but that doesn't become a huge factor until you get below about 25F.

Did I miss where the OP said he had a 30kwh battery? He did say the temps are 14 degrees and lower where even you say resistance heat becomes a huge factor. We can debate how efficient the LEAFs heat pump is below 32 degrees, but I've not seen hard data on it. I did not say the car only had a 50 mile range in those conditions, only that if his commute was around 50 miles he need not worry about his speed. So what's so inaccurate?

Edit: OP did say his LEAF was a 2016 SV so therefore does have a 30kWh pack, so yes, the 70+ miles in those conditions would be reasonable. The rest stands.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The 2016 Leaf SV has a 30kwh battery. Every one of them has it.

In those conditions you will likely have about a 50 mile range.

That's what you wrote. We all make mistakes, and it's hard to resist jumping in to answer questions, but we have to try to know the topic, first.

 

[GRA]

<snip> Did I miss where the OP said he had a 30kwh battery? He did say the temps are 14 degrees and lower where even you say resistance heat becomes a huge factor. We can debate how efficient the LEAFs heat pump is below 32 degrees, but I've not seen hard data on it. I did not say the car only had a 50 mile range in those conditions, only that if his commute was around 50 miles he need not worry about his speed. So what's so inaccurate?

Edit: OP did say his LEAF was a 2016 SV so therefore does have a 30kWh pack, so yes, the 70+ miles in those conditions would be reasonable. The rest stands.

See the hard-to-read chart in reddy's post: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11348 The heat pump's efficiency advantage disappears below -10C (14 deg. F).

 

[LeftieBiker]

See the hard-to-read chart in reddy's post: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11348 The heat pump's efficiency advantage disappears below -10C (14 deg. F).

Yes, and as those of us who have the heatpump-equipped cars and who watch range have noted, the first big drop in range is at 24-25F. From 32F down to 25 you are losing range, but not as badly as with the PTC heater. From 25 down to 14 you still get a little more range with the heat pump, but it isn't a lot.

 

[jpadc]

See the hard-to-read chart in reddy's post: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11348 The heat pump's efficiency advantage disappears below -10C (14 deg. F).

That chart you referenced does show that below 32F the range starts to drop as the resistance heat kicks in and is effectively gone by 14F which is what we were talking about based on OPs current weather. So, again, heat pump of no real help there.

I noticed that chart is based on the MY11 LEAF's heater and not the resistance heater in the MY13+ S type heater. One would think the coolant based heater of the MY11-12s would be more efficient once up to temperature, but Nissan certainly abandoned that type and it does not seem it was for improved reliability (as the MY13+ S heaters seem to fail frequently) so I wonder if its not more efficient.

Any data on that?

 

[LeftieBiker]

That chart you referenced does show that below 32F the range starts to drop as the resistance heat kicks in and is effectively gone by 14F which is what we were talking about based on OPs current weather. So, again, heat pump of no real help there.

Remember that people tend to believe what they read. So while in the context of that particular discussion there was no immediate harm done by saying that the heat pump doesn't help below 32F, anyone who reads that and doesn't know better will tend to believe it, and that is where problems can occur - in future contexts. The fact that the heat pump preserves a lot of range from 65F or whatever high point it's first used, down to about 25F, is a valuable piece of information for people looking at Leafs in most climates. Nissan really should inform people that the S trim Leaf (and, really, all pre-2013 Leafs, now) is only suited to short commutes in colder areas, but they don't. That leaves us to help them choose the right Leaf.

 

[GerryAZ]

There is a lot of discussion about heat pumps in cold temperatures. I recently did some testing of my 2015 during a "cold" snap in Phoenix. By looking at the energy use screen on the NAV unit and looking at Leaf Spy, I could readily see when the car was using the resistance heater and when the heat pump was operating alone. I found that the heat pump would run alone if the set point temperature was low enough, but the resistance heater would run even in moderate ambient temperatures with the interior set point high enough (say 80 F or higher). Also, my car uses the resistance heater for preheating while plugged in regardless of ambient temperature (assume this is to reduce wear on compressor and noise while parked). If you want to be comfortable and minimize energy consumption when ambient temperature is cold, I recommend you try to keep the interior set point down around 68 so the HVAC controller will use the heat pump as much as possible.

Has any else noticed that only resistance heat is used for preheating when plugged in? I also noticed that the 2011 with liquid immersed heater (mini hot water tank) would store enough heat while preheating to blow warm air for some time while driving. The dry heater in the 2015 does not store heat (but the heat pump is so much more efficient that lack of heat storage does not matter).

Gerry

 

[LeftieBiker]

Has any else noticed that only resistance heat is used for preheating when plugged in?

My 2013 SV makes so much noise while preheating that I find it hard to believe the heat pump isn't running. On the other hand, it uses a lot of juice, draining about 2% charge for 5 minutes of preheating, even when plugged in. It's possible that the setting for interior temp when preheating may affect which heater(s) gets used for preheating. Mine is set for 75F, IIRC. I think I'll try changing it to 70. I have an interior "weather station" and the car is never anywhere near as warm as the heater setting anyway...

 

[jpadc]

On the other hand, it uses a lot of juice, draining about 2% charge for 5 minutes of preheating, even when plugged in. It's possible that the setting for interior temp when preheating may affect which heater(s) gets used for preheating.

What are you charging with? I take it something less that a 6.6kw EVSE. My limited experience, but my S preheating to what must be 75+ (not settable) in an unheated garage continues to add charge the entire time its warming up. So while I set the car to stop at 80%, on days I preheat the car is at more like 84% by the time I get in it and its still adding charge (according to LeafSpy) until I pull the plug to stop the preheating. Of course the EVSE also shows its still pulling up to 27.5 amps to do both those things.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I use 12 amp L-1 charging, which nets a loss when preheating.

 

[powersurge]

I have my 2015 S Leaf for 15 months, and 16K miles in NY, which is hot and cold. I from my scientific experiments, I can tell you :
1) With L1 (120 volt) charging, if you are plugged into the charger, you CANNOT do any preheating, as the car will not engage the heating elements at all, it will only blow air and use up your battery.
2) With L2 (240 Volt) charging, the car will warm up with the car plugged in, BUT your % of charge will either stay the same, or go down, even though the car was in charging mode!.
3) In cold weather (20-32 degrees), the car will give you about a 60 mile range (starting from 100% and stopping to recharge at 20%), soo... In effect driving 60 miles will cost you 20% of y our total charge to heat your car. WITH THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS - Speed - 55 mph or lower, Heat set to 68 degrees, with the fan at 2 bars, no a/c running, and relatively flat terrain (I am in Long Island).
4) I can imagine that with 0-20 degrees cold, faster speed, higher heat temperature and fan, a/c on, stop and go traffic, and hilly, mountain terrain, your range (from 100%) is possible to only be 30-40 miles range in the winter.

Although I love my car, and it works GREAT for me, I have the following CAUTIONS for potential new Leaf drivers...

Others please comment----

The Leaf IS NOT A CAR FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN COLD CLIMATES, MOUNTAINOUS AREAS, WHO NEED TO TRAVEL AT (OVER 55 MPH) HIGHWAY SPEEDS, LOVE HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING, AND THEN EXPECT TO TRAVEL MORE THAN 20-35 MILES AT A TIME!!!

 

[jjeff]

The Leaf IS NOT A CAR FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN COLD CLIMATES, MOUNTAINOUS AREAS, WHO NEED TO TRAVEL AT (OVER 55 MPH) HIGHWAY SPEEDS, LOVE HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING, AND THEN EXPECT TO TRAVEL MORE THAN 20-35 MILES AT A TIME!!!

+1 although personally I'd say more like 25-40 miles(on the flat) and of course someone with a new 30KWh might be able to hit 50 with constant heat use. I doubt it's just the Leaf, it's part of the reason when I hear the new Bolt is supposed to have a range of 200+ miles I say to myself, probably more like 100 miles in very cold weather. Still better than the Leaf but I hope people don't purchase a Bolt needing the 200 miles in cold weather as I'm sure it won't deliver what they need.