Is it normal to get only 2.5 miles per kwh in winter with a new Leaf?

[Reddy]

Here's some more cold weather data. If you do a search on my name, and then add "cold" or "winter" you will find some old posts with lots of links to cold weather threads. Also, look at the green car report which shows range as a function of temperature. At very cold temps (0 F), you get around 50 mi from a new 2013. I would expect the new 2015/2016's would be similar (a bit more from the 30 KWh battery):
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11123&hilit=cold&start=40#p347131

 

[lpickup]

Make sure you check that tire pressure....it makes a bigger difference than you think. My temps aren't as low as yours, but I was getting 2.9-3.0 when the tires were at 32-34psi...inflating them to 41 and I'm getting 3.6-3.8 again. And this is on a 2012 (old heater, but usually with pre-heat) with 2 bars gone and almost no regen in the cold (although most of my commute is on highway, so not really regenerating anyway). I have my heater set to 68F and use the seat & steering wheel heaters.

 

[jpadc]

1) With L1 (120 volt) charging, if you are plugged into the charger, you CANNOT do any preheating, as the car will not engage the heating elements at all, it will only blow air and use up your battery.

I think many would disagree with that. L1 preheating is often, depending on outside temps, a net loss as others here have pointed out, but the car does warm up over time (might need up to 30 minutes).

2) With L2 (240 Volt) charging, the car will warm up with the car plugged in, BUT your % of charge will either stay the same, or go down, even though the car was in charging mode.

Well, not if you are charging at 6.6kWs as there is power to heat and charge. I do it all the time. I've often sat in the car at a good L2 station and heated my car to stay warm while charging. Its slower, but it charges fine. Now maybe if you are using something like an EVSEUpgrade device, but I hardly consider that L2 charging as it maxes out at like 16 amps.

Others please comment----

The Leaf IS NOT A CAR FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN COLD CLIMATES, MOUNTAINOUS AREAS, WHO NEED TO TRAVEL AT (OVER 55 MPH) HIGHWAY SPEEDS, LOVE HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING, AND THEN EXPECT TO TRAVEL MORE THAN 20-35 MILES AT A TIME!!!

I think that is way too strong. I am always disagreeing with "the many" here who think we should tax gas to levels that force people to switch to an EV. Well, that IMHO is ridiculous as current and near future EVs are extremely expensive and have limited functionally outside of places with mostly ideal climate conditions. Not to mention that the majority of people have no means of charging an EV where they live or work and without that, an EV is completely impractical. However, current EVs are viable options for many people today with the means to buy one and with modest changes to one's current driving habits, EVs can work well except in very extreme climates. My motto is... The LEAF is a great car, IF you have another car.

 

[LeftieBiker]

I have my 2015 S Leaf for 15 months, and 16K miles in NY, which is hot and cold. I from my scientific experiments, I can tell you :
1) With L1 (120 volt) charging, if you are plugged into the charger, you CANNOT do any preheating, as the car will not engage the heating elements at all, it will only blow air and use up your battery.
2) With L2 (240 Volt) charging, the car will warm up with the car plugged in, BUT your % of charge will either stay the same, or go down, even though the car was in charging mode!.
3) In cold weather (20-32 degrees), the car will give you about a 60 mile range (starting from 100% and stopping to recharge at 20%), soo... In effect driving 60 miles will cost you 20% of y our total charge to heat your car. WITH THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS - Speed - 55 mph or lower, Heat set to 68 degrees, with the fan at 2 bars, no a/c running, and relatively flat terrain (I am in Long Island).
4) I can imagine that with 0-20 degrees cold, faster speed, higher heat temperature and fan, a/c on, stop and go traffic, and hilly, mountain terrain, your range (from 100%) is possible to only be 30-40 miles range in the winter.

Although I love my car, and it works GREAT for me, I have the following CAUTIONS for potential new Leaf drivers...

Others please comment----

The Leaf IS NOT A CAR FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN COLD CLIMATES, MOUNTAINOUS AREAS, WHO NEED TO TRAVEL AT (OVER 55 MPH) HIGHWAY SPEEDS, LOVE HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING, AND THEN EXPECT TO TRAVEL MORE THAN 20-35 MILES AT A TIME!!!

I live in Upstate NY, and my SV will definitely preheat while plugged in - and I use L-1. I use Carwings to set the climate control timer. The only downside is that I lose abut 2% charge after 5 minutes of preheating. And, no I don't preheat for 30 minutes to get heat, nor do I need to do so. There are situations in which the heater won't run, but this isn't of them - at least not for the SV/SL. With the S, I think you have to use a more complicated procedure to get heat while plugged in.

 

[2k1Toaster]

1) With L1 (120 volt) charging, if you are plugged into the charger, you CANNOT do any preheating, as the car will not engage the heating elements at all, it will only blow air and use up your battery.

False.

I use it all the time, and I don't own an L2. When I am plugged in at work (L1 outlet on a street light) it charges up slowly all day and then turns the heater on an hour or so before I leave. We've been in very negative temperatures recently as we are in the middle of our 6 months of winter. When I get to the car, everything is warm and the ice on the windscreen has turned slushy enough to wipe away instead of scrape away. Instead of having 100%, I have 99% or 98% usually. But even if I warm the entire day, I never keep losing charge, it just stops around 98% or so.

3) In cold weather (20-32 degrees), the car will give you about a 60 mile range (starting from 100% and stopping to recharge at 20%), soo... In effect driving 60 miles will cost you 20% of y our total charge to heat your car. WITH THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS - Speed - 55 mph or lower, Heat set to 68 degrees, with the fan at 2 bars, no a/c running, and relatively flat terrain (I am in Long Island).

Might as well add in the alignment of the planets for such a statement to work. What if there is water on the flat ground? Ice? Slush? Rocks? Constant 55mph, where does that ever happen? Definitely not on the LIE.

I have gone over 100 miles on a full charge in subfreezing temperatures in the mountains of Colorado. I have also gone less than 20miles on a full charge with different road conditions.

Although I love my car, and it works GREAT for me, I have the following CAUTIONS for potential new Leaf drivers...

Others please comment----

The Leaf IS NOT A CAR FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN COLD CLIMATES, MOUNTAINOUS AREAS, WHO NEED TO TRAVEL AT (OVER 55 MPH) HIGHWAY SPEEDS, LOVE HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING, AND THEN EXPECT TO TRAVEL MORE THAN 20-35 MILES AT A TIME!!!

[/quote]

Fairly dramatic and I would say completely wrong. The Leaf is excellent in the cold. Excellent in the mountains. Excellent at 90+ mph. And a good range for the energy it stores.

 

[2k1Toaster]

Here's the little Leaf being a plow getting through a few inches of the white stuff, kicking up a trail of snow. Definitely preheated on L1 that morning so the windows de-iced....

 

[jpadc]

Here's the little Leaf being a plow getting through a few inches of the white stuff, kicking up a trail of snow. Definitely preheated on L1 that morning so the windows de-iced....

Okay, just because the Leaf CAN do that does not mean it WANTS to do that

 

[Evoforce]

I sure don't miss the snowy conditions. Is there a car in those pictures or is that a grifting snowbank? :lol:

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I have my 2015 S Leaf for 15 months, and 16K miles in NY, which is hot and cold. I from my scientific experiments, I can tell you :
1) With L1 (120 volt) charging, if you are plugged into the charger, you CANNOT do any preheating, as the car will not engage the heating elements at all, it will only blow air and use up your battery.
2) With L2 (240 Volt) charging, the car will warm up with the car plugged in, BUT your % of charge will either stay the same, or go down, even though the car was in charging mode!.
3) In cold weather (20-32 degrees), the car will give you about a 60 mile range (starting from 100% and stopping to recharge at 20%), soo... In effect driving 60 miles will cost you 20% of y our total charge to heat your car. WITH THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS - Speed - 55 mph or lower, Heat set to 68 degrees, with the fan at 2 bars, no a/c running, and relatively flat terrain (I am in Long Island).
4) I can imagine that with 0-20 degrees cold, faster speed, higher heat temperature and fan, a/c on, stop and go traffic, and hilly, mountain terrain, your range (from 100%) is possible to only be 30-40 miles range in the winter.

Although I love my car, and it works GREAT for me, I have the following CAUTIONS for potential new Leaf drivers...

Others please comment----

The Leaf IS NOT A CAR FOR PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN COLD CLIMATES, MOUNTAINOUS AREAS, WHO NEED TO TRAVEL AT (OVER 55 MPH) HIGHWAY SPEEDS, LOVE HEAT AND AIR CONDITIONING, AND THEN EXPECT TO TRAVEL MORE THAN 20-35 MILES AT A TIME!!!

Ok, we've had a few people respond, calling your statements "false" and "misleading", yet none of them seem to have the S. This is critical here. Not only does the S have a resistance-only heater, but it also only has a 3.6kW charger. So point #2 may be perfectly valid. I know this is true on my 2012 SV, also with a resistance heater and a 3.3kW charger. My heater pulls a solid 6kW, but the charger only provides 3.3kW. That extra 2.7kW has to come from somewhere, and that would be the battery.

Here's my experience with a 2012 SV.

1) I can absolutely preheat on 120V. In fact, it preheats just as fast / warm as on 240V. It just pulls that much more from the battery to supplement. Moreover, I can preheat without being plugged in. In this case it still preheats just as fast / warm but pulls all of the energy from the battery. I do this purely as a comfort/convenience. Mostly for the wife and kids, sometimes for myself.
2) This is true for my car. The heater pulls up to 6kW but the charger only provides 3.3kW.
3) I didn't get 60 miles under those conditions when my car was new. More like 50. I assume that even on the S trim there are some slight efficiency improvements between 2012 and 2015 so I'll give you 60 miles.
4) Again, I don't fare so well in my car. When new, I'd get more like 20-25 miles under such harsh conditions. I'll chalk that up to accumulating improvements as well.

Your conclusion is valid, particularly for the S trim. Those people would do well to consider a 2016 SV/SL with a more efficient heater, faster charger (for preheating without using battery), AND a 30kWh battery. I wouldn't be surprised if the SV/SL gets 2X the winter range of the S due to the combination of these factors.

 

[lpickup]

So point #2 may be perfectly valid. I know this is true on my 2012 SV, also with a resistance heater and a 3.3kW charger. My heater pulls a solid 6kW, but the charger only provides 3.3kW. That extra 2.7kW has to come from somewhere, and that would be the battery.

Only at the beginning though (depending on ambient conditions of course).

Here's a video I did comparing the heater power draw over time and comparing my 2012 with my wife's 2013. Granted this is inside a garage and not in the far north, but it's not necessarily the fact that the resistance heater will constantly pull 6kW is not necessarily true, given enough time for the cabin temp to come up to temperature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIXQRGesR9s

 

[arnis]

Whoever wants to know.
With new Leaf (heat pump or not) preheating while plugged in heat pump is not used.

With 3,3kW charger heater will draw up to 3kW but there are other losses (fan, 12V charging etc).
Plus charging efficiency loss and it all results in small amout drawn from battery. This discharge will stop
as soon as 3kW draw is not requested any more (like 2500W or less plus other stuff).
If Leaf is not plugged in heat pump will be used.
If I remember correctly charging using 2kW portable charger (Europe we have 240V * 10A portable EVSE)
then preheating will be limited to 2kW (also slight discharge from battery).


Air is 100% recirculated (some fresh air burst after 15 minutes or so). This is why it heats up much faster
even in extreme weather.

If charging and preheating then preheating is primary. When heater does not need 100% of charger all extra
goes to battery. If battery is also unable to receive more then charger will slow down.
Right now I'm doing that. 2250W to heater, 300W auxiliary and 100-400W to battery (as much as there is to take).
Battery is near 97%. After 10-15 minutes it will be something like 1000W heat, 300W auxiliary, 1200W battery.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I’ve been driving my new ’16 SV Leaf for a few days now. Mostly freeway driving around 65mph. It’s been rather cold, single digits at night maybe teens for daytime highs. I run the heat, heated steering wheel/seat but it says it only reduces my range by 10 miles so that can’t be it. I’ve read others getting 3.0 to 3.5 miles per KWH in the winter so wonder why mine is so low? Would this indicate something wrong with my car?

pump your tires up and pay MUCH less attention to what others get unless they are driving beside you. you could take the time to have your car checked but guessing a coat would do a lot more good

 

[GetOffYourGas]

So point #2 may be perfectly valid. I know this is true on my 2012 SV, also with a resistance heater and a 3.3kW charger. My heater pulls a solid 6kW, but the charger only provides 3.3kW. That extra 2.7kW has to come from somewhere, and that would be the battery.

Only at the beginning though (depending on ambient conditions of course).

Here's a video I did comparing the heater power draw over time and comparing my 2012 with my wife's 2013. Granted this is inside a garage and not in the far north, but it's not necessarily the fact that the resistance heater will constantly pull 6kW is not necessarily true, given enough time for the cabin temp to come up to temperature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIXQRGesR9s

True enough. This morning was single digits, and my car isn't lucky enough to go in our 1-car garage (the wife's CMax gets that privilege). I can say that it was still pulling 5-6 kW after preheating for half an hour. In another half an hour, it may have gotten below 3kW. But I assumed that most people don't preheat their cars for an hour (Yes, I know what happens when you assume). Besides, if your heater is starting to pull less power, it is no longer really heating up the car so much as maintaining temperature. So "preheating" is done.

 

[LeftieBiker]

With new Leaf (heat pump or not) preheating while plugged in heat pump is not used.
...
If Leaf is not plugged in heat pump will be used.

That probably explains what I've seen and heard. My car is unplugged as often as not when I preheat it.

 

[lpickup]

Besides, if your heater is starting to pull less power, it is no longer really heating up the car so much as maintaining temperature. So "preheating" is done.

True, although sometimes I intentionally use this "feature" to get a bit of additional charge into my battery (only meaningful for those of us with older cars that can and do charge to 80%), so it's not uncommon for me to preheat for 30-45 minutes even though I really only needed 15 minutes. That way I can get to 90% or so charge (which on some days, makes all the difference).

 

[arnis]

New Leaf does not really charge battery (slightly maybe) if heater is slowing down.
Start charging must be activated, then it will.
So usually before long trips I start charging 2 hours before departure, after 90 minutes
I also start preheating. Charging continues as soon as there is extra juice.

 

[Leaflief]

I made it home last night with only 1 bar left in -20 temps. No heater running (that's right!): only the heated seat, a lap blanket and a down jacket. Was frightening to see how quickly the bars disappeared in extreme cold. I slowed down to 20mph for the last 5 miles to conserve power, figuring it was better to get home a little later than needing to walk the last mile or so in those temps. I love this car, but sometimes it requires a lot of dedication!

I'll concede that for the ordinary driver, used to conveniences like a warm vehicle, an all-electric might not be the best choice for hilly Vermont in the middle of winter.

2012 SL with 16K miles, 11 bars left, bought used.

 

[arnis]

20MPH is excellent economy speed (no heater only).
1 bar left is still something. I recommend buying ELM adapter for few buck from ebay

In extreme weather the most important factor is not going over 20kW acceleration. Ever.

 

[jjeff]

I made it home last night with only 1 bar left in -20 temps. No heater running (that's right!): only the heated seat, a lap blanket and a down jacket. Was frightening to see how quickly the bars disappeared in extreme cold. I slowed down to 20mph for the last 5 miles to conserve power, figuring it was better to get home a little later than needing to walk the last mile or so in those temps. I love this car, but sometimes it requires a lot of dedication!

I'll concede that for the ordinary driver, used to conveniences like a warm vehicle, an all-electric might not be the best choice for hilly Vermont in the middle of winter.

2012 SL with 16K miles, 11 bars left, bought used.

Yes if your talking -20F that is a very extreme condition for a Leaf. Below zero is bad, I can only imagine how bad -20F would be. The coldest I've driven my '13 so far was ~-10F and that was extreme. How many miles did you get on a full charge at -20F? I believe the battery heater kicks in at temps somewhere below zero, at -20F I'm sure it was running which would explain some of your discharge. IMO your best option if you can would be to always plug your Leaf in at temps like that, preferably with L2, L1 would probably do very little at those temps other than maintaining battery charge and keeping it warm.

 

[LeftieBiker]

IMO your best option if you can would be to always plug your Leaf in at temps like that, preferably with L2, L1 would probably do very little at those temps other than maintaining battery charge and keeping it warm.

Eh? Are you saying it won't charge with L-1 at frigid temps? It will, adding the same 5% per hour, minus whatever the battery heater uses, which isn't a lot.