I am going to buy a Leaf instead of leasing

[garymelora]

My plan is to finance the initial purchase price, then pay down the loan once I get the cash back after filing my tax return... Finally, as others have mentioned, leasing really is not an option for me given my 20,000 mile per year need, meaning that the question is not so much buy vs. lease, as it is should I buy given that buying is my only option...which leads to the bigger question of can I expect to get 5 years/100,000 miles out of my Leaf.

2 thoughts;

Don't wait untill you file to get your rebate and pay all that interest, just stop your withholdings now.

If you pay $18k net after sales tax and loan interest, and sell it at 100k miles for $3k, that's 15 cents per mile. The overmileage penalty on my SL lease is 15 cents per mile, and I don't have to worry about how long the battery will last. IMO leasing still wins.

 

[thankyouOB]

Remember also that you will pay sales tax on the full sales price before tax credits.

Making sure that you will get the entire $7500 tax credit is key. Most Americans would not. If your income is that high, you may want to consider buying a Tesla.

nope.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

$7500 in tax at about 45k in taxable income for single,
55k for married joint filing,
(add 20k-40k for deductions, even).
unless i read it wrong.
that is not Tesla country in my house.

 

[braineo]

Have you gotten quotes from dealers via Costco or Truecar.com ?

My purchase was a no brainer when I negotiated a 2011 SL for less than $29k including taxes and zero down. My calculations were similar to yours - with the calculations on a napkin realizing with the gas savings and tax credits my car would be totally free after five years.

There is no way to beat that.

I might even do it again at year end to get one for my wife.

 

[georgia2013]

"garymelora", I am not sure I understand your comparison of cents per mile. You are comparing my cents per mile to purchase, stretched out over five years, to a penalty cents per mile on a short-term lease that is in addition to the lease payments. I just don't think that is a valid comparison.

"thankyouOB", I think you are partially correct with the IRS tax tables. The only thing to remember is that the taxable income (in your example $55k for married filing joint) represents your actual income after all adjustments have been made such as standard deductions and personal exemptions. For example, for a family of four (meaning four personal exemptions at $3,900 each and two $1,000 child tax credits) that takes the standard deduction of $12,200, the actual gross income needed to qualify for the full $7,500 would be around $97,000. They really need to turn the credit into a rebate received at the dealership (similar to a lease) so that more people can take advantage of the full amount.

I seem to be getting mixed opinions from different posters, but my opinion is still that I can pretty much rest assured that a 2013 Nissan Leaf would last me five years/100,000 miles if all I need out of a full charge is 35 miles (which allows for 50% battery degradation as acceptable). I do not see how anyone can deny that. If this is a valid assumption, then I basically can have a free car for five years, which seems like a "no-brainer".

 

[UBUYGAS]

Do GA residents pay Sales Tax on EVs?

NJ residents do not.

 

[martyv]

"georgia2013" - Like you, I never lease... have always bought and driven long term. Here's why I chose to lease my 2013 Leaf recently (my first lease ever!)
1) Uncertainty of battery degradation. I live in the northwest, just about perfect for the Leaf, but I figured after two years I'd have a pretty good idea of whether the range loss over time would be acceptable.
2) Chance that range will improve significantly, either from Nissan or another, in two or three years.
3) The $7,500 tax credit is available right away when you lease (it gets applied to Nissan or NMAC, and in turn lessens the payments on the lease).

If it turns out that 1) and 2) are not major factors, I can just buy my 2013 SV at the price preset at the time of the lease, or turn it in and shop around (more likely since residuals seem a bit high from what I can tell based on the value of 2011's right now.

So, leasing minimizes some risks - almost a "try before you buy" - and might be financially about the same...

Good luck with whichever way you choose to go - let us know!

 

[kikbuti]

You can get the manufacturer's dealer invoice price from edmunds.com, subtract the $1,000 and know what the price is. You don't have to put up with dealer shenanigans. S Models are in short supply and don't have features available in the better equipped models. You may be happier spending a little extra. I agree with advice to lease, however. There will likely be much better models in 3 years.

The only thing I would add, Georgia, is that our company is also on the VPP program. My disappointment is that the $1,000 under invoice price thing is not cut and dried. The deals that I've been privy to from our employees show me that the dealers are not honestly marking the car down the full $1,000, and sometimes they try to sneak in items that raise the price while not providing much value. And the model "S" cars are hard to find out here as well...Just something to keep in mind when you do the deal. They may try to sell you up to a more expensive model and the price they offer may not be the full $1,000 under invoice....Buyer beware....

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I am strongly considering buying a Leaf. Here is a quick breakdown of my analysis. I can buy a Leaf for $1,000 below invoice because of my company being on Nissan's "Friends and Family" Vehicle Purchase Program list, which means a 2013 S model would cost $25,986. After the federal credit of $7,500 and state (Georgia) credit of $5,000, my net cost to purchase would be $13,486! Financing this amount over 5 years would equate to a monthly payment of $236, which is roughly what I pay now per month for the gas in my current vehicle. I have a 70 mile round trip commute to work everyday, but can charge for free at work (I work for a big energy utility so we have roughly 30 charging stations in our parking deck). I expect to put 20,000 miles on the Leaf each year, which means the 100,000 mile warranty on the battery will last for five years (same as the period I plan to finance). After taking all of this into consideration, the five year gas savings offsets the five year car payments total making my Leaf free. Does anyone see any bad assumptions in my analysis?

i dont respond to people who are not willing to put in their general location

 

[Sublime]

I think buying is the better choice for you. I have a 30 mile roundtrip commute and I'm fairly certain I'm going to be over the 12k/yr mileage when I return it. At 70miles a work day (assuming you work 5 days a week, 48 weeks out of the year) that's 16,800 miles a year with no weekend driving.

 

[georgia2013]

"DaveinOlyWA", I mentioned in my original email that I live in Georgia.

 

[garymelora]

"garymelora", I am not sure I understand your comparison of cents per mile. You are comparing my cents per mile to purchase, stretched out over five years, to a penalty cents per mile on a short-term lease that is in addition to the lease payments. I just don't think that is a valid comparison.

I am just saying don't rule out a lease just because you drive 20k miles per year, run the numbers. My lease payments are more than 15 cents/mile, so my total per mile cost of ownership actually goes down the more miles I drive, despite the penalty. Note: I edited that post because my penalty is 15 cents, not 11. I paid 11 cents per mile to upgrade my lease from 12k miles/year to 15k. I thought 15k would be enough, but we are actually driving it over 18k/year because the whole family uses the Leaf whenever possible. I did not see that coming.

The Tesla thing was just a flip remark to emphasize a point. In fairness to me, I did say "...may want to consider...". The factual statement that most Americans do not have a $7500 fed tax burden stands. I will try to do better in the future.

I have no doubt that your Leaf will meet your needs for 100k miles and beyond. However you obtain it, you are making a good move.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

"DaveinOlyWA", I mentioned in my original email that I live in Georgia.

ok, did not see that and your username kinda hints in that direction but also know a guy "Virginia1996" on a different board who lives in TX. his wife's name is Virginia and they got married in 1996.


but considering the estimated mileage and end to end charging, your only real option is to buy.

only thing i have to say is that buying a car and only looking at the commuting aspect is a mistake. you will see dramatic degradation in your area. Covered parking at work will help. charging to 80% will help, charging in your garage (not driveway) will help but all that means you have minimal personal transportation options and if you have never driven EV before I think you will find it VERY difficult to leave it home.

Steve in WA has 80,000 miles in near perfect LEAF weather and has lot over 20% of his range. you are far from being in perfect weather conditions.

i am just under 38,000 miles and have lost 15% and this is the first Summer we have had warmer than normal weather. granted some of my loss could be temporary due to the heat but it seems that we only gain back half (or less) of what we lost come Winter.

Either way; i would recommend the LEAF or any other EV you see fit (your options are limited as are mine) because they really do fit very well into combined transportation portfolio. Ya, i still have a gasser and that wont change anytime soon but it does less than half the mileage in the household and that is best we can do for now.

and one thing that is guaranteed; if you go gas, you will pay $8,000 or more for fuel only (probably much more!) along with higher maintenance costs

 

[Petecomp1]

I have never leased a car before because I typically own vehicles at least 10 years (I have a 2004 Honda Pilot with 120K miles that I will probably be buried in). But the most it would ever cost to repair/replace any major component of the Pilot is about $5K (engine, transmission). For which I would get another 200K miles (?) from the vehicle. Compare with Leaf: If I keep it for 10 years, what do I have? A great car parked in my driveway and worth about nothing for resale unless I can somehow replace the battery (and even then, the cost of the battery would greatly exceed the resale value of the car). Nissan could change this by coming out with a simple battery replacement price, but they won't do it. Like everyone else, they are hedging on the future, I suppose.
Now, what if (as seems inevitable) Nissan or some competitor announces a 200 mile battery in, say, 3 years. Now my "owned" Leaf is for all intents not saleable at all for anywhere near a reasonable resale price for a car of this price level.

Bottom line is, if the Leaf works for you and you don't care about new battery technology displacing its value over the next 5 years, by all means, purchase. If you are like me, on the other hand, and want the flexibility to acquire new technology as it emerges on the market, I think leasing is the only way to go. There is no "wrong" choice, only (as you are doing) fully analyze your choice to make sure it won't make you unhappy later on.
After 4 months of driving my Leaf I am more impressed with it every time I drive, and I always find myself thinking: "What a car this would be with a 200 mile battery!".
Bill

 

[Reddy]

... but my opinion is still that I can pretty much rest assured that a 2013 Nissan Leaf would last me five years/100,000 miles if all I need out of a full charge is 35 miles (which allows for 50% battery degradation as acceptable). I do not see how anyone can deny that. ....

Agreed! Here is one of the most pessimistic analysis I've seen and it even supports your assumption:
http://www.plugincars.com/real-world-leaf-range-27-38-miles.html

If that's all you need, then buying is definitely an option. I bought because I know 35 mi will be plenty for me in 20 yrs. However, I am babying the battery and right now it's parked in my garage with 6 bars temperature/charge. For the past two months it has spent every night outside on the driveway to "cool" off. It will be close to 100 F today and I'm bicycling to work as is my norm for the Spring-Fall. I have less than 14,000 mi in two years and expect to approach 200,000 mi before I'm done driving it.

I bought early, paid more than I would have, if I'd waited two years. So what? I voted with my dollars to subsidize future EVs instead of more gas guzzlers. I've "saved" $3000 in gas but paid a bigger premium on the Leaf. The way I figure it, those dollars were better spent with Nissan than Exxon (Valdez), BP (Deepwater Horizon), Shell (Nigeria), etc. My dollars, my choice.

Analyze, but don't worry about your decision. Leasing is insurance if you want to trade up in the future. Buying is for those who can live with the car a long time. Certainly you have more information today (especially about battery degradation in hot climates) than we had 3 yrs ago.

 

[thankyouOB]

I have never leased a car before because I typically own vehicles at least 10 years (I have a 2004 Honda Pilot with 120K miles that I will probably be buried in). But the most it would ever cost to repair/replace any major component of the Pilot is about $5K (engine, transmission). For which I would get another 200K miles (?) from the vehicle. Compare with Leaf: If I keep it for 10 years, what do I have? A great car parked in my driveway and worth about nothing for resale unless I can somehow replace the battery (and even then, the cost of the battery would greatly exceed the resale value of the car). Nissan could change this by coming out with a simple battery replacement price, but they won't do it. Like everyone else, they are hedging on the future, I suppose.
Now, what if (as seems inevitable) Nissan or some competitor announces a 200 mile battery in, say, 3 years. Now my "owned" Leaf is for all intents not saleable at all for anywhere near a reasonable resale price for a car of this price level.

Bottom line is, if the Leaf works for you and you don't care about new battery technology displacing its value over the next 5 years, by all means, purchase. If you are like me, on the other hand, and want the flexibility to acquire new technology as it emerges on the market, I think leasing is the only way to go. There is no "wrong" choice, only (as you are doing) fully analyze your choice to make sure it won't make you unhappy later on.
After 4 months of driving my Leaf I am more impressed with it every time I drive, and I always find myself thinking: "What a car this would be with a 200 mile battery!".
Bill

welcome to nissan's steal-your-battery program.

 

[SanDust]

I seem to be getting mixed opinions from different posters, but my opinion is still that I can pretty much rest assured that a 2013 Nissan Leaf would last me five years/100,000 miles if all I need out of a full charge is 35 miles (which allows for 50% battery degradation as acceptable). I do not see how anyone can deny that. If this is a valid assumption, then I basically can have a free car for five years, which seems like a "no-brainer".

Maybe I missed this, if so I apologize, but if you're fine with 35 miles in a charge then how are you going to drive 20,000 miles a year? It would be more like 12,000 miles. Or are you going to do multiple charges a day?

What you're missing is that if you buy and your battery degrades you will get very little after five years. Yes you'll still be out less than you would be if you bought a BMW 5 series but that's not the comparison. The comparison is between leasing and buying a Leaf. If you run the numbers it's probably cheaper to lease a Leaf for 15K miles a year for four years, turn it back in when you hit 60K miles (you can prepay), and lease another one for three years with 12K miles.

 

[braineo]

My 0.02 cents.

I have leased 5 cars in the past 20 years. I have made money in the one my daughter crashed (Subaru Impreza) during its first year (due to the gap insurance). Two I returned because they were lemons (Ford Contours). One I returned because it was underpowered (Dodge Intrepid). The last one I bought after the lease was over because it was the most reliable car I had leased in 10 years and had everything I ever wanted in a car. So when I leased I got the least money down and the lowest miles allowed. That lowered my payment for the three year lease. i bought the car for $10k at the end of the lease in 2006. Still have the car. Still reliable. I'm on the second set of tires and brakes. Replaced the struts and a couple of suspension bushings. Had a minor transmission issue all less than $2,000 in 10 years. it is my gasser when my Leaf is out of range.

So I consider the lease to be a long test drive to see if i do really like the car and to see if it is reliable.

For the Leaf, get the car model you will enjoy now and in 5 years. Check the lowest lease payment vs. your purchase payment. If they are too close, just purchase. My 2011 Leaf SL payment with zero down and taxes is 434/mo, lease was $60/mo less I wanted the tax credits which I got. My gas savings are about $300/mo. I don't care about the mileage. I hope I blow up the battery under warranty and get the 2017 model with 200 mile range.

I still smile every day during my work commute from Duluth to Marietta.

 

[tigre502]

I am strongly considering buying a Leaf. Here is a quick breakdown of my analysis. I can buy a Leaf for $1,000 below invoice because of my company being on Nissan's "Friends and Family" Vehicle Purchase Program list, which means a 2013 S model would cost $25,986. After the federal credit of $7,500 and state (Georgia) credit of $5,000, my net cost to purchase would be $13,486! Financing this amount over 5 years would equate to a monthly payment of $236, which is roughly what I pay now per month for the gas in my current vehicle. I have a 70 mile round trip commute to work everyday, but can charge for free at work (I work for a big energy utility so we have roughly 30 charging stations in our parking deck). I expect to put 20,000 miles on the Leaf each year, which means the 100,000 mile warranty on the battery will last for five years (same as the period I plan to finance). After taking all of this into consideration, the five year gas savings offsets the five year car payments total making my Leaf free. Does anyone see any bad assumptions in my analysis?

shopping is the best option.
using the car just to go to work:
35 miles from home to work
35 miles back home.
according to the energy department to georgia e-gallon is $ 1.07. and gasoline prices in georgia REGULAR costs $ 3.37.

in five years will drive an approx. 100,000 Miles.

in your case you have the advantage of fully recharge cars work. if you plan wisely your refills you can drive more than 70% of your electricity journeys FREE ... (First 70000 Miles easy you can do it only at work loading Free)
Then when you're behind bars will have q fully recharged at night in your home and how your trips maximums are 35 Miles your blade can easily fulfill your daily requirements even losing up to 40% of the capacity of the battery pack.

70,000 charging the electricity can do for FREE.
30,000 miles can make loading the electricity at night at home. (At a cost of $ 1.07 a gallon equivalent of electricity). in your case the savings are significant ... and justifies the expense of Gasoline! remember that in future gas prices will continue to rise ..

I'd rather buy living in the state of Georgia that have double tax reduction. !

in 5 years electrical sales increase and tax cuts will decrease! or disappear!
"sorry my english.. i Use google Translator"

 

[tigre502]

In your particular situation about 8 years in the worst case your nissan leaf can not go more than 35 miles per charge .. is the time of "speculation" but when that happens must have and Battery for sale ... by 2019 prices down by massification of production or improved technologies.

For years there have been conversions of vehicles from gasoline to electric.

If you work at a power company you or your companions must have knowledge of electricity, not only Nissan produces battery packs ... in several years will have already companies offering battery packs! more affordable than today ...
In a lease you must return the car .. in buying the car is yours ... and 2019 will be no longer possible to obtain tax cuts!

 

[RonDawg]

I seem to be getting mixed opinions from different posters, but my opinion is still that I can pretty much rest assured that a 2013 Nissan Leaf would last me five years/100,000 miles if all I need out of a full charge is 35 miles (which allows for 50% battery degradation as acceptable). I do not see how anyone can deny that. If this is a valid assumption, then I basically can have a free car for five years, which seems like a "no-brainer".

Maybe I missed this, if so I apologize, but if you're fine with 35 miles in a charge then how are you going to drive 20,000 miles a year? It would be more like 12,000 miles. Or are you going to do multiple charges a day?

georgia2013's commute is 35 miles one way and plans on charging at work.