Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[GRA]

Which is fine, if they wish to define it that way. AFAIA, that's not how EVs are defined in the US.... FWIW, here's how electric vehicles are defined by wikipedia:

An electric vehicle (EV), also referred to as an electric drive vehicle, uses one or more electric motors or traction motors for propulsion. An electric vehicle may be powered through a collector system by electricity from off-vehicle sources, or may be self-contained with a battery or generator to convert fuel to electricity.[3] EVs include road and rail vehicles, surface and underwater vessels, electric aircraft and electrically-powered space vehicles.

That's the same as my definition as above (which differs slightly to the UK definition) in different words.

We must parse words very differently then, because I think it exactly agrees with my definition. Let's see, "an electric motor or motors for traction." Yup. "May be powered through a collector system by electricity from off-vehicle sources, or may be self-contained with a battery or generator to convert fuel to electricity. Yup. That bolded part includes HEVs, PHEVs, and FCVs in the definition of electric vehicles, as they all include a "generator to convert fuel to electricity". Do you disagree?

, and it's certainly not how I define them.

You are in your own world there. It is meaningless to suggest a car is 'electric' simply because it has an electric system on board.

Like saying aeroplanes are electric. Meaningless.

I'd agree that it would be meaningless if I'd ever said that. I haven't said any such thing. What I have said is that an EV has electric drive, which is my (and wiki's, although I hadn't seen it before today) definition. There are undoubtedly other definitions; I find mine to be inclusive of all the sub-types, and easy to distinguish what is and isn't an EV - if (leaving Maglevs aside) an electric motor propels it wholly or in part, it's an EV. Simple and conclusive, it encompasses HEVs, BEVs, PHEVs, FCEVs/FCHEVs, PHFCEVs and even PV or wind-direct EVs.

 

[donald]

So you understand that there has to be an electric motor physically connected to the drive wheels, and if there is no such mechanical connection then it isn't an 'EV'?

Well, that would be fine, but I don't think it was the impression we all got earlier. At one stage you appeared to be implying if there are any electronics on the engine then it is 'electric propulsion'.

Is this what you are agreeing to: An EV has, and has to have, propulsion torque send mechanically to the wheels from the torque generated within an electric motor?

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Hydrogen fuel cell cars will not happen on a wide scale.

Hydrogen is hard to make.

Hydrogen is incredibly difficult to transport.

Hydrogen is expensive - more expensive than gasoline.

Hydrogen is much less energy efficient that electricity.

Hydrogen is incredibly explosive.

Hydrogen is not a fuel - it is an energy storage medium.

Hydrogen has about TWELVE public filling stations in the US. Some of those can service just 15 cars a DAY.

Who will pay for the infrastructure?

Fuel cells don't last very long.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars will not happen on a wide scale.

 

[AndyH]

With respect Neil, your repeated list is just as incorrect now as it was four pages ago.

Had you scanned this thread, you'd have learned that we've been using hydrogen in industry since the late 1800s. Everything from your hydrogenized cooking oil to auto lube oil is treated in a high temperature/high pressure hydrogen environment to saturate the hydrocarbon chains. You'd also have been introduced to the Third Industrial Revolution plan that's being implemented throughout Europe and has been adopted by the UN for developing countries and has been put into law in China - this plan uses hydrogen to store excess renewable generation to use later on the grid and for use in vehicles. Overall it's much more efficient than battery, CAES, or pumped hydro storage - and much, much more flexible.

As for the too often used 'efficiency' canard: I need to transport a pallet of solar panels 150 miles to an off-grid work site, along with inverters, equipment, and tools. Can you please tell me which BEV to buy that will get me out and back?

FCEVs are here to stay.

PS - of course H2 is an energy storage medium - nobody is suggesting otherwise. Keep in mind that also applies to fossil fuels - they're just condensed solar energy as well. At least H2 can be used repeatedly - it's more difficult and much less efficient to reconstitute gasoline for re-use...

 

[NeilBlanchard]

They are completely valid. Steam reforming natural gas is how we get hydrogen now, for the most part.

Then you have to transport it out to all the ~200,000 filling stations that someone has built and paid for. (We have roughly 118,000 gasoline filling stations in the US, if I remember correctly.)

Transporting hydrogen is the biggest hurdle, as I see it. How will this happen? Who builds the infrastructure? Transporting electricity is about 8% loss. How much energy will be required to move hydrogen?

You have to compress it. Some of the existing filling stations can only fill 15 cars per day; due to compression limitations. How much energy is used to compress it?

Electrolysis is always going to be much less efficient than using the electricity directly in a battery. No matter how you get the electricity, (and where you get the water from and the energy used to get the water), you will always use more energy than you get back out of the hydrogen.

Gasoline is a fuel, not an energy storage medium. A battery is a storage medium. Wood is a fuel. Oil and coal and natural gas are fuels.

Please explain how I am wrong - how can hydrogen be practical and affordable - or even possible in wide use?

 

[donald]

Please explain how I am wrong - how can hydrogen be practical and affordable - or even possible in wide use?

Firstly, you are missing technology change in hydrogen production. Largely, it is a by-product of other industrial processes at the moment. Yeah, if you want to go out of your way to make the stuff, then steam reformation of natural gas is a preferred way.

Secondly, the problem for natural gas, of course, is that it is really difficult to transport it. No-one has yet come up with a way to move it around the country... err... oh yeah, someone's invented plumbing.... can't imagine how they'll get hydrogen around, then..... :roll:

 

[AndyH]

They are completely valid. Steam reforming natural gas is how we get hydrogen now, for the most part.

Then you have to transport it out to all the ~200,000 filling stations that someone has built and paid for. (We have roughly 118,000 gasoline filling stations in the US, if I remember correctly.)

Transporting hydrogen is the biggest hurdle, as I see it. How will this happen? Who builds the infrastructure? Transporting electricity is about 8% loss. How much energy will be required to move hydrogen?

You have to compress it. Some of the existing filling stations can only fill 15 cars per day; due to compression limitations. How much energy is used to compress it?

Electrolysis is always going to be much less efficient than using the electricity directly in a battery. No matter how you get the electricity, (and where you get the water from and the energy used to get the water), you will always use more energy than you get back out of the hydrogen.

Gasoline is a fuel, not an energy storage medium. A battery is a storage medium. Wood is a fuel. Oil and coal and natural gas are fuels.

Please explain how I am wrong - how can hydrogen be practical and affordable - or even possible in wide use?

"Gasoline is a fuel, not an energy storage medium. A battery is a storage medium. Wood is a fuel. Oil and coal and natural gas are fuels." Feel free to cite a source for this string, please. Fossil fuels and wood are stored solar energy brought to you and me by photosynthesis. They are energy storage mediums.

Please - read the thread. All of this is covered multiple times.

For example: the Third Industrial Revolution plan uses ZERO steam-reformed fossil gas - fossil gas is NOT necessary for H2. You can confirm that by noting that one of SoCal's existing H2 stations generates H2 and electricity by reforming biomethane from a landfill, and noting that Germany has one wind to H2 plant in operation and ~17 under construction as a required pillar of their 100% renewables TIR transition.

Transporting H2 isn't a factor when it's made on-site. It doesn't need additional compression when there are five companies selling alkaline hydrolyzers that output high-pressure gas.

While we all agree (my God - over and over and over) that PV-battery-inverter-motor is more efficient overall, the power grid-battery-interter-motor has EQUAL efficiency than electrolyzing H2 from renewable sources today. In addition, and critically important is that efficiency is NOT the primary factor when one must carry a load beyond the range of a Model S. Current BEV pickups can almost get out of their own way for about 40 miles - 45 miles if there's a downhill segment enroute. BEV + FCEV are needed today in very large numbers in order to get off fossil fuels. BEVs alone cannot do the job - even for the entirety of 'personal' transportation.

Again - this has been covered in this thread in gory and repetitious detail.

Please don't let religion get in the way of the big-picture solutions we need if we want to stay on the planet.

http://www.thethirdindustrialrevolution.com/masterPlan.cfm
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14559
http://blogs.agu.org/terracentral/2...forward-with-the-third-industrial-revolution/
http://cetri-tires.org/press/2013/c...ernet-meanwhile-tir-spreads-around-the-globe/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naXLMlqlxdo[/youtube]

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can we all agree on basic terms so that this doesn't keep popping up?

I'm not sure how important it is that hydrogen is a storage medium and not fuel to the subject of hydrogen "refuled" cars.

A car that is electric powered doesn't make it an EV, since there are very specific differences that ARE important to this discussion.

How about we stick with that actually refueling medium as the naming protocol?

 

[AndyH]

Can we all agree on basic terms so that this doesn't keep popping up?

I'm not sure how important it is that hydrogen is a storage medium and not fuel to the subject of hydrogen "refuled" cars.

A car that is electric powered doesn't make it an EV, since there are very specific differences that ARE important to this discussion.

How about we stick with that actually refueling medium as the naming protocol?

:shock: A car that is electric powered is not an EV?! An electric vehicle is not an electric vehicle? And you offer that as an example of agreeing on basic terms?

Some sources call H2 a 'fuel', some also call electrolytes for flow batteries or replaceable metal plates in 'air' batteries 'fuel'. Others call flow battery and other 'recharged outside the battery case' fluids 'electrolytes'. Regardless of the words used, if a vehicle is propelled by a flow of electrons activating traction motors (whether those electrons are delivered by a catenary, battery, fuel cell, or Mr Fusion, it's an electric vehicle.

An electric car is an automobile that is propelled by one or more electric motors, using electrical energy stored in batteries or another energy storage device. Electric motors give electric cars instant torque, creating strong and smooth acceleration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car

We have seen in the previous chapter that there are many different types and sizes of
electric vehicle. However, in nearly all cases the battery is a key component. In the classic
electrical vehicle the battery is the only energy store, and the component with the highest
cost, weight and volume. In hybrid vehicles the battery, which must continually accept
and give out electrical energy, is also a key component of the highest importance. Some
fuel cell vehicles have been made which have batteries that are no larger than those
normally fitted to internal combustion engined cars, but it is probable that most early
FC powered vehicles will have quite large batteries and work in hybrid fuel cell/battery
mode.

Page 23:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Electric_vehicle_technology_explained.html?id=edqTZb9PbLQC

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can we all agree on basic terms so that this doesn't keep popping up?

I'm not sure how important it is that hydrogen is a storage medium and not fuel to the subject of hydrogen "refuled" cars.

A car that is electric powered doesn't make it an EV, since there are very specific differences that ARE important to this discussion.

How about we stick with that actually refueling medium as the naming protocol?

:shock: A car that is electric powered is not an EV?! An electric vehicle is not an electric vehicle? And you offer that as an example of agreeing on basic terms?

I guess it was too much to ask. Yes, you'd have to slightly adjust your thinking so that we could spend less time debating BS issues, and more of the core ones.

If I put hydrogen in it, it's hydrogen powered.

If I put electricity in it, if electricity powered.

Yes, that's the suggestion.

 

[GRA]

So you understand that there has to be an electric motor physically connected to the drive wheels, and if there is no such mechanical connection then it isn't an 'EV'?

Well, that would be fine, but I don't think it was the impression we all got earlier. At one stage you appeared to be implying if there are any electronics on the engine then it is 'electric propulsion'.

No, I said that such a vehicle was a hybrid, an electrified gas car. I did not say (ever) that it was an EV.

Is this what you are agreeing to: An EV has, and has to have, propulsion torque send mechanically to the wheels from the torque generated within an electric motor?

Yes, just as stated (exotics aside).

 

[donald]

..At one stage you appeared to be implying if there are any electronics on the engine then it is 'electric propulsion'.

No, I said that such a vehicle was a hybrid

OK. So if that's a 'hybrid', what do you call a Prius?

 

[Smidge204]

The LEAF is a battery electric vehicle, because the energy to drive the wheels comes only from a storage battery.

The Prius is a parallel hybrid, where the energy to drive the wheels comes from more than one source (battery and gasoline) simultaneously for the majority of its normal operation.

The Volt is a series hybrid, where the energy to drive the wheels comes from more than one source (battery and gasoline) simultaneously, but the energy from one source (gasoline) is converted into the other (electricity) prior to delivery to the wheels. This allows the secondary source to go unused more often, but it's still a hybrid. (Note: under limited circumstances, the Volt becomes a parallel hybrid)

A fuel cell vehicle would be a hybrid, where the energy to drive the wheels comes from more than one source (hydrogen store and battery) simultaneously. You could not fit - nor afford - a fuel cell that was powerful enough to power the vehicle adequately without a battery to handle the surge loads. Whether it would be a serial or parallel hybrid depends entirely on how you look at it.
=Smidge=

 

[GRA]

..At one stage you appeared to be implying if there are any electronics on the engine then it is 'electric propulsion'.

No, I said that such a vehicle was a hybrid

OK. So if that's a 'hybrid', what do you call a Prius?

A Hybrid EV (HEV), of course. An electrified gas car is a different type of hybrid (lower case), not a Hybrid Electric Vehicle. Clear now?

 

[GRA]

The LEAF is a battery electric vehicle, because the energy to drive the wheels comes only from a storage battery.

The Prius is a parallel hybrid, where the energy to drive the wheels comes from more than one source (battery and gasoline) simultaneously for the majority of its normal operation.

The Volt is a series hybrid, where the energy to drive the wheels comes from more than one source (battery and gasoline) simultaneously, but the energy from one source (gasoline) is converted into the other (electricity) prior to delivery to the wheels. This allows the secondary source to go unused more often, but it's still a hybrid. (Note: under limited circumstances, the Volt becomes a parallel hybrid)

A fuel cell vehicle would be a hybrid, where the energy to drive the wheels comes from more than one source (hydrogen store and battery) simultaneously. You could not fit - nor afford - a fuel cell that was powerful enough to power the vehicle adequately without a battery to handle the surge loads. Whether it would be a serial or parallel hybrid depends entirely on how you look at it.
=Smidge=

Pure FCEVs have been done within the past decade (by Honda and/or Toyota), but at the moment, you're correct that they aren't practical. We'll have to see if that will change.

 

[donald]

Clear now?

I get the impression it doesn't really matter to anything at all if I am clear or otherwise on what your personalised definition is. Makes no sense to me as it is a term that would apply to all cars, in that case, and would therefore serve no purpose to classify anything in particular.

 

[AndyH]

Can we all agree on basic terms so that this doesn't keep popping up?

I'm not sure how important it is that hydrogen is a storage medium and not fuel to the subject of hydrogen "refuled" cars.

A car that is electric powered doesn't make it an EV, since there are very specific differences that ARE important to this discussion.

How about we stick with that actually refueling medium as the naming protocol?

:shock: A car that is electric powered is not an EV?! An electric vehicle is not an electric vehicle? And you offer that as an example of agreeing on basic terms?

I guess it was too much to ask. Yes, you'd have to slightly adjust your thinking so that we could spend less time debating BS issues, and more of the core ones.

If I put hydrogen in it, it's hydrogen powered.

If I put electricity in it, if electricity powered.

Yes, that's the suggestion.

Feel free to draw the lines where you wish. I'm sticking with science and established norms.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Isn't hydrogenated oil the same as trans fat? I don't want a car that will give me cancer.

 

[GRA]

Clear now?

I get the impression it doesn't really matter to anything at all if I am clear or otherwise on what your personalised definition is. Makes no sense to me as it is a term that would apply to all cars, in that case, and would therefore serve no purpose to classify anything in particular.

Suit yourself. To me, an electrified gas car is a hybrid because it can't perform its basic function without gas and electricity. A diesel could be closer to a pure ICE, but you've still got an electric starter and maybe EFI, so even that wouldn't work without both electricity and diesel. It's going on a century since anyone built a production gas or diesel car that wasn't dependent on electricity for its basic functioning, which is why we don't think of ICE cars as being 'electrified'. Personally, I've never seen someone hand crank their car or use acetylene lights on it, but it can certainly be done.

 

[GRA]

Back more on topic, via GCC:

DSM thermoplastics suited for lightweight tanks for CNG, H2; weight reduction up to 70%

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141031-dsm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Meanwhile, re Toyota being 'anti-battery':

Toyota to test expansion of EV and PHV charging infrastructure in Japan

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141031-toyota.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, not everyone's on board, via GCR:

Toyota: 'No One Wants Us To Build Electric Cars'

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095220_toyota-no-one-wants-us-to-build-electric-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;