How disappointed should I be that Nissan did not include liquid battery cooling on the Leaf E-Plus?

[LeftieBiker]

- some of the feedback I got here seemed (in my view) to give short shrift to the advantages of liquid cooling and other good pack architecture.

This is primarily one person arguing that, with a few more taking the position that active cooling wouldn't be necessary for them in their climate(s). The latter aren't dismissing the arguments in favor of active cooling.

 

[jlsoaz]

- some of the feedback I got here seemed (in my view) to give short shrift to the advantages of liquid cooling and other good pack architecture.

This is primarily one person arguing that, with a few more taking the position that active cooling wouldn't be necessary for them in their climate(s). The latter aren't dismissing the arguments in favor of active cooling.

Thanks, I'll take your word for it. I found the experience somewhat disorienting, of trying to stand up and count the things that made sense, but to push back against the things that didn't quite make sense to me, and so I have lost track of what some others have said.

 

[WetEV]

- some of the feedback I got here seemed (in my view) to give short shrift to the advantages of liquid cooling and other good pack architecture.

This is primarily one person arguing that, with a few more taking the position that active cooling wouldn't be necessary for them in their climate(s). The latter aren't dismissing the arguments in favor of active cooling.

Liquid active cooling:

1. is likely necessary for high performance. Driving around the Nürburgring?
   
2. is an advantage for long distances. Multiple QCs per day are you?
   
3. will give better battery life in hot climates. Live in Phoenix?

Most people are not race driving, are commuting and around town, and don't live in very hot places.

 

[SageBrush]

- some of the feedback I got here seemed (in my view) to give short shrift to the advantages of liquid cooling and other good pack architecture.

This is primarily one person arguing that, with a few more taking the position that active cooling wouldn't be necessary for them in their climate(s). The latter aren't dismissing the arguments in favor of active cooling.

Liquid active cooling:

1. is likely necessary for high performance. Driving around the Nürburgring?
   
2. is an advantage for long distances. Multiple QCs per day are you?
   
3. will give better battery life in hot climates. Live in Phoenix?

Most people are not race driving, are commuting and around town, and don't live in very hot places.

1. The degradation problem extends far beyond Phoenix. Pretty much any climate warmer than the Pacific NW
2. Rapidgate extends far beyond just multiple QC in one day. See Summer outside of the Pacific NW.

 

[OrientExpress]

Just as an update, the Rapidgate complaints are not an issue in LEAFs manufactured after May of 2018.

And while battery degradation may have been a major issue in cars built between 2010 and 2013, it has pretty much been mitigated in later model years except in severe edge cases geographies. For 2018 and later cars, there is no credible data that suggests that it is still an issue even in the edge cases geographies. Moving forward in 2020, Nissan will move to a new battery architecture with a new BEV platform that will build on the current improvements.

 

[LeftieBiker]

And while battery degradation may have been a major issue in cars built between 2010 and 2013, it has pretty much been mitigated in later model years except in severe edge cases geographies. For 2018 and later cars, there is no credible data that suggests that it is still an issue even in the edge cases geographies. Moving forward in 2020, Nissan will move to a new battery architecture with a new BEV platform that will build on the current improvements.

The "credible data" will appear in about 2 more years, this being only early 2019. My own data so far, along with most other data posted here, suggests that the 40kwh pack generally degrades at least roughly 7-10% in the first year, regardless of climate.

 

[WetEV]

My own data so far, along with most other data posted here, suggests that the 40kwh pack degrades roughly 7-10% in the first year, regardless of climate.

Regardless of climate, meaning that active cooling wouldn't make the slightest difference.

 

[SageBrush]

Just as an update, the Rapidgate complaints are not an issue in LEAFs manufactured after May of 2018.

And while battery degradation may have been a major issue in cars built between 2010 and 2013, it has pretty much been mitigated in later model years except in severe edge cases geographies. For 2018 and later cars, there is no credible data that suggests that it is still an issue even in the edge cases geographies.

BS

 

[SageBrush]

My own data so far, along with most other data posted here, suggests that the 40kwh pack degrades roughly 7-10% in the first year, regardless of climate.

Regardless of climate, meaning that active cooling wouldn't make the slightest difference.

No

I find it hilarious that Nissan and its shills proclaim that warmer than mild climates are not a problem for the LEAF battery ... but Nissan is moving to a thermally managed battery as soon as they can figure it out. LEAF customers would have to be *really* obtuse to not see the obvious contradiction.

 

[jonathanfields4ever]

My own data so far, along with most other data posted here, suggests that the 40kwh pack degrades roughly 7-10% in the first year, regardless of climate.

Regardless of climate, meaning that active cooling wouldn't make the slightest difference.

No

I find it hilarious that Nissan and its shills proclaim that warmer than mild climates are not a problem for the LEAF battery ... but Nissan is moving to a thermally managed battery as soon as they can figure it out. LEAF customers would have to be *really* obtuse to not see the obvious contradiction.

Nissan and its shills? What?

Tesla TMS doesn’t even turn on until the pack hits 45 degrees Celsius. Even in a warm place, it would be very hard for a lot of people to hit that temperature in any situation besides QC on a warm day. Hell, it hits 40+ In Denver in the summer and my friend claims he’s never even heard the TMS on his Model X kick on.

 

[WetEV]

Tesla TMS doesn’t even turn on until the pack hits 45 degrees Celsius. Even in a warm place, it would be very hard for a lot of people to hit that temperature in any situation besides QC I’m a warm day. Hell, it hits 40+ In Denver in the summer and my friend claims he’s never even heard the TMS on his Model X kick on.

Denver has only hit 40 C air temperature 5 times since records started. Phoenix has gotten over 45 C air temperature every year this century. As for how warm the battery gets, depends on how much you drive, and how aggressively, as well as the ambient temperatures.

 

[jlsoaz]

This is primarily one person arguing that, with a few more taking the position that active cooling wouldn't be necessary for them in their climate(s). The latter aren't dismissing the arguments in favor of active cooling.

Liquid active cooling:

1. is likely necessary for high performance. Driving around the Nürburgring?
   
2. is an advantage for long distances. Multiple QCs per day are you?
   
3. will give better battery life in hot climates. Live in Phoenix?

Most people are not race driving, are commuting and around town, and don't live in very hot places.

1. The degradation problem extends far beyond Phoenix. Pretty much any climate warmer than the Pacific NW
2. Rapidgate extends far beyond just multiple QC in one day. See Summer outside of the Pacific NW.

Yeah, I'm kind of lost trying to figure out a lot of this, but one thing that seems sort of clear to me, at least in my opinion, is that WetEV has a tendency to offer straw man arguments in this area.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Yeah, I'm kind of lost trying to figure out a lot of this, but one thing that seems sort of clear to me, at least in my opinion, is that WetEV has a tendency to offer straw man arguments in this area.

He also sometimes clips text he is quoting enough to change or at least confuse their meaning. Both are no-nos in polite argument. Any sound argument should stand on its own merit, without little 'asists' like those.

 

[jlsoaz]

And while battery degradation may have been a major issue in cars built between 2010 and 2013, it has pretty much been mitigated in later model years except in severe edge cases geographies. For 2018 and later cars, there is no credible data that suggests that it is still an issue even in the edge cases geographies. Moving forward in 2020, Nissan will move to a new battery architecture with a new BEV platform that will build on the current improvements.

The "credible data" will appear in about 2 more years, this being only early 2019. My own data so far, along with most other data posted here, suggests that the 40kwh pack degrades roughly 7-10% in the first year, regardless of climate.

I'm confused, in another thread I had posted about Leafs in Mexico, or where I am near there, you had said "....The 2016+ Leaf has not shown any particular resistance to hotter weather...".

Ok, so I'm sure there's an explanation, but I will say
- we could probably use some increased, recent, robust and properly-applied data on some of these discussions.
- is 7-10% first year, good, bad or indifferent compared to other EVs from other manufacturers?

 

[SageBrush]

but one thing that seems sort of clear to me, at least in my opinion, is that WetEV has a tendency to offer straw man arguments in this area.

You are too kind.
There are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of anecdotes in this forum of people with multiple capacity bar loss before end of warranty from non-canary packs who do not live in Phoenix type climates. HIs ability to ignore the obvious is quite impressive, but so are adults that believe in the tooth fairy.

 

[WetEV]

but one thing that seems sort of clear to me, at least in my opinion, is that WetEV has a tendency to offer straw man arguments in this area.

You are too kind.
There are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of anecdotes in this forum of people with multiple capacity bar loss before end of warranty from non-canary packs who do not live in Phoenix type climates. HIs ability to ignore the obvious is quite impressive, but so are adults that believe in the tooth fairy.

Keep trolling Tesla fanboy.

 

[jlsoaz]

but one thing that seems sort of clear to me, at least in my opinion, is that WetEV has a tendency to offer straw man arguments in this area.

You are too kind.
There are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of anecdotes in this forum of people with multiple capacity bar loss before end of warranty from non-canary packs who do not live in Phoenix type climates. His ability to ignore the obvious is quite impressive, but so are adults that believe in the tooth fairy.

Hi -
I'm one of the people who does not live in Phoenix who experienced loss of bars 2012-2015, as can be seen from the PIA link in every message I post. It's a point well worth making, that it's not just the hottest city that had this issue going on.

[edited]

 

[LeftieBiker]

And while battery degradation may have been a major issue in cars built between 2010 and 2013, it has pretty much been mitigated in later model years except in severe edge cases geographies. For 2018 and later cars, there is no credible data that suggests that it is still an issue even in the edge cases geographies. Moving forward in 2020, Nissan will move to a new battery architecture with a new BEV platform that will build on the current improvements.

The "credible data" will appear in about 2 more years, this being only early 2019. My own data so far, along with most other data posted here, suggests that the 40kwh pack degrades roughly 7-10% in the first year, regardless of climate.

I'm confused, in another thread I had posted about Leafs in Mexico, or where I am near there, you had said "....The 2016+ Leaf has not shown any particular resistance to hotter weather...".

Ok, so I'm sure there's an explanation, but I will say
- we could probably use some increased, recent, robust and properly-applied data on some of these discussions.
- is 7-10% first year, good, bad or indifferent compared to other EVs from other manufacturers?

I mean that you apparently can't stop the 40kwh pack from degrading just by keeping it cool (or by keeping it charged well below 100%, either). That doesn't mean the pack won't degrade faster in Hot climates, just that it won't degrade very slowly in cooler ones. Is that more clear? I'll fix the original post when I find it.

 

[johnlocke]

The real problem here is that Nissan picked the wrong chemistry to start with. The problem haunts them to this day. Higher average temps cause more rapid degradation in both the 24 and 30 KWH batteries. The jury is still out on the 40 KWH battery but the evidence so far doesn't look good. It will be another year before we will be able to say if the 40 KWH is really any better or worse. It does look like there's a problem fast charging the 40 KWH battery during road trips. NIssan will continue to use the same chemistry simply because it works ok in their primary markets ( Europe and Japan). Nissan USA has repeatedly ignored customer complaints and failed to act except under court duress.

 

[Lothsahn]

The real problem here is that Nissan picked the wrong chemistry to start with. The problem haunts them to this day. Higher average temps cause more rapid degradation in both the 24 and 30 KWH batteries. The jury is still out on the 40 KWH battery but the evidence so far doesn't look good. It will be another year before we will be able to say if the 40 KWH is really any better or worse. It does look like there's a problem fast charging the 40 KWH battery during road trips. NIssan will continue to use the same chemistry simply because it works ok in their primary markets ( Europe and Japan). Nissan USA has repeatedly ignored customer complaints and failed to act except under court duress.

Honestly, I think the real problem is that while they've kept the battery size the same, they refuse to sell upgrades. If people could buy a replacement 40 kWh battery for the 24 kWh original cars, I don't think there would be the negative attention that they're getting right now. They've already figured out how to fit 60 kWh in basically the same size. Also a possibility for a future upgrade, but Nissan likely won't do it.

Tesla's got goodwill because they make their cars better via constant software updates and improvements. Nissan has a huge opportunity here to set a precedent that their cars will get better when you buy a replacement battery in ~10 years after the original purchase, but there's not currently the will to do that. It's not even hard--they just have to design a BMS to talk to the older VCM protocol, and reprogram the VCM to update the GOM.