Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

[Nubo]

...Tesla has said that since they control the battery aging process with a TMS, they get superior battery life as well as range in all temps.
...

They may have said that, but it does not tell the whole story.

Tesla has a different battery chemistry.
Although it is more dangerous, it may have better capacity degradation characteristics, although TMS is a factor too.
The LEAF and Volt chemistry is safer, but avoiding capacity degradation requires very special chemistry tweaks.

And TMS does help winter range some, but it does not make winter range equal moderate temperature spring and fall range even in the Tesla.

+1

For the cells LEAF uses, TMS is an option.

For the cells Tesla uses, TMS is an absolute requirement.

 

[lorenfb]

I also wonder why the Leaf doesn't use energy as efficiently as the Model S at highway speeds? My Leaf's Miles per Kilowatt go down significantly when I get on the expressway. It seems the Model S is more efficient with it power, or maybe that's the illusion the big 60 & 80 kWh packs give?

The Tesla MS is not more efficient at normal freeways speeds (< 65) than the Leaf. Remember, it's not
only the drag losses (K1 X Cd X speed^2) but also the rolling resistance ( K2 X weight X speed) and that's
where the MS' weight (~ 4600 lbs) makes the MS less efficient than the Leaf (weight ~ 3500 lbs) at speeds
most drive at.

 

[Nubo]

Does the OBDII wireless transmitter lead to increased load on the 12V Lead Acid accessory battery? I worry about premature death for that battery from using LeafSpy every single day. I understand that the transmitter doesn't add that much load, but still worry. Also, will using it everyday cause problems with the OBDII port overtime, such as loosening it, blowing it's fuse, or etc? Do I have to remove it every time I power-down the car (to avoid killing the accessory battery)? Or, can I leave it plugged-in 24/7?

Yes the adapters use power. You can feel it is warm after awhile. Probably not too big of a deal for a daily driver but I would pull it if parking for more than a couple of days.

The LEAF's 12V certainly doesn't need additional difficulties. Ideally you'd turn the adapter off when not in use, and they make versions with an on/off switch. If I used it regularly I would get a switched version instead of unplugging it every day. I only use mine rarely and so it's not an issue. I don't need it for daily driving, just for occasional trips where I am pushing the range, or for keeping tabs on the battery health. Less than once a month for me.

 

[TimLee]

...
Does the OBDII wireless transmitter lead to increased load on the 12V Lead Acid accessory battery? I worry about premature death for that battery from using LeafSpy every single day. I understand that the transmitter doesn't add that much load, but still worry. Also, will using it everyday cause problems with the OBDII port overtime, such as loosening it, blowing it's fuse, or etc? Do I have to remove it every time I power-down the car (to avoid killing the accessory battery)? Or, can I leave it plugged-in 24/7?

I think the recommendations on the Wiki are correct and it should be used with an extension cable rather than plugging directly into the port. That is what I do.

I leave mine plugged in 24/7, but where I have it in the floor left of the driver's seat it is fairly easy to unplug if you want to. Depending on what you are doing with other Bluetooth apps you may need to unplug and reply once in a while to get the phone to connect the bluetooth.
Jim has worked on that and if I get the Bluetooth on first and then get the LEAF to connect by touching the phone button on the steering wheel it is pretty infrequent that I have to unplug it. No more than every tenth trip.

I think most of the people that had problems with it draining the 12V battery were not having it disable bluetooth when they exited the app or were not using the LEAF for quite a few dsys.

 

[electriccarfan]

...
Does the OBDII wireless transmitter lead to increased load on the 12V Lead Acid accessory battery? I worry about premature death for that battery from using LeafSpy every single day. I understand that the transmitter doesn't add that much load, but still worry. Also, will using it everyday cause problems with the OBDII port overtime, such as loosening it, blowing it's fuse, or etc? Do I have to remove it every time I power-down the car (to avoid killing the accessory battery)? Or, can I leave it plugged-in 24/7?

I think the recommendations on the Wiki are correct and it should be used with an extension cable rather than plugging directly into the port. That is what I do.

I leave mine plugged in 24/7, but where I have it in the floor left of the driver's seat it is fairly easy to unplug if you want to. Depending on what you are doing with other Bluetooth apps you may need to unplug and reply once in a while to get the phone to connect the bluetooth.
Jim has worked on that and if I get the Bluetooth on first and then get the LEAF to connect by touching the phone button on the steering wheel it is pretty infrequent that I have to unplug it. No more than every tenth trip.

I think most of the people that had problems with it draining the 12V battery were not having it disable bluetooth when they exited the app or were not using the LEAF for quite a few dsys.

After reading the Wiki, I think I'll just stick with the DTE meter. I think If I weren't leasing this car or had a long commute, I would go ahead and go about buying all the stuff and clipping the OBDII extension cord up and all that. But, I am after all just leasing it and in 28 months I'll just be getting a new Leaf (or other EV) anyway. If I start to lose capacity bars rapidly or something like that I may reconsider.

I usually always look at the SOC meter anyway.

I have a 10 Mile round-trip commute every day for work, and 15 total miles a day (on a normal work day).

The DTE has really never seemed to be far off, I don't know what people are on about. But, then again I have never used a DCQC, so I haven't had to rely on an exact readout of the Leafs pack to make it home.

 

[TomT]

I have both the Lincomatic meter and a Bluetooth adapter for Leaf Scan Pro plugged in 24/7. I have left the car unplugged for two weeks at a time and have yet to have an issue.

After reading the Wiki, I think I'll just stick with the DTE meter. I think If I weren't leasing this car or had a long commute, I would go ahead and go about buying all the stuff and clipping the OBDII extension cord up and all that.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...The DTE has really never seemed to be far off, I don't know what people are on about. But, then again I have never used a DCQC, so I haven't had to rely on an exact readout of the Leafs pack to make it home.

Flatlanders have reported that the GOM on 2013 and newer LEAFs was improved. But for those of us who drive mountains it is a complete joke. It also can't know whether your speeds will vary significantly: low speeds = more range, high speeds = much less range. If your driving pattern is consistent, your driving terrain and weather are mostly the same, the GOM can give somewhat useful results.

Nevertheless, one of the most common early posts from new LEAF drivers that we see here asks "what happened to my range?" In digging down, we find that "range" was actually the GOM and the LEAF newcomer didn't realize that it can't possibly give an accurate reading of actual range. And that it will change with temperature, heater use, speed, rain/snow, wind, and so forth.

More to the point, the 2013 and newer LEAFs have a %SOC meter on the dash which works pretty well as a fuel gauge. Nissan implemented it after feedback from early (2011) LEAF owners. The fuel bars and GOM can now be ignored and the range judged from how many percent of the battery it takes to make various trips in varying weather conditions. If you become comfortable doing this, as seems to be the case, then you don't need an aftermarket meter.

For those of us with 2011/2012 LEAFs who do not have the %SOC meter, and who stretch the range of the car, an aftermarket meter of some sort is essential.

 

[TomT]

The problem with SOC is that it is a constantly moving target as the battery degrades and each percentage become less energy. I prefer absolute numbers from the various meters because then your math never changes...

For those of us with 2011/2012 LEAFs who do not have the %SOC meter, and who stretch the range of the car, an aftermarket meter of some sort is essential.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The problem with SOC is that it is a constantly moving target as the battery degrades and each percentage become less energy. I prefer absolute numbers from the various meters because then your math never changes...

While I agree completely, it gets old trying to explain it every time the %SOC meter is discussed (and I've given up, for the most part).

I've often pondered whether Nissan should have put in an absolute %SoC gauge. But if they had done that, it would cause huge confusion and complaints as the top % gradually descended from 100% on a full charge. I can sort of see why Nissan chose to make the %SOC gauge relative to the capacity of the battery, whatever it is, same as the fuel bars. Wouldn't you make the same decision if you were trying to sell cars without confusing non tech-savvy customers?


As for using a meter with 2013 and newer cars, I tried to break it down to two factors: 1) Are you comfortable using the %SOC dash meter as a fuel gauge, and 2) Do you stretch the range of the car?

Unless the answer is "no" to the first and/or "yes" to the second, an aftermarket meter is not necessary. Another reason to get one, however, is to monitor the capacity and temperature of the battery. But that's for serious enthusiasts, I would guess.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

...When I head out in the morning, I boot-up my Leaf. On 100% charge it usually says at least "80 Miles" on the Miles Remaining display. I drive 1/2 mile down the road and that has dropped to 65-70 Miles Remaining (and its a sunny 20F day with clean roads). I end the day having driven 44 Miles total (and it shows 23 Miles Remaining on the display).

You seem to be basing your range estimates on the "Guess-o-meter" (GOM), which has no validity whatsoever. None. That may explain why your impression of the loss of range in winter is so extreme and why you blame it, incorrectly, on the lack of TMS for the battery. Until you choose to base your range estimates on more concrete data, such as energy units used per mile or an actual range test, you will continue to be misled as to your actual range under varying temperature conditions.

Expecting TMS to solve the decline in winter range is going to lead to disappointment; there are too many other factors at play. One reason that some of us hope and expect that larger batteries will become the norm for BEVs in the future is that it will help alleviate the loss of range in places with cold winters. If the cold weather range of the car comfortably exceeds one's needs, the decline in range in cold and snowy weather becomes moot. But just adding TMS to a small battery car isn't going to do it.

I see. If Nissan did include TMS in the first place, don't you think all those Leafs in Arizona would've faired better? Or, do you think there would have been the same outcome? It does get quite hot there!

not on the GOM. in the imfamous Tesla S85 test drive. the GOM lost several miles of estimated range simply by sitting overnight at the hotel on a cold night. is this a problem? Yes when the reporter used that reading to determine he had gotten enough charge.

so it does not matter what car you are talking about. Its up to you to learn your vehicle and what it can do. Granted the Tesla si better and all the above happened before several fixes, mods, etc. were implemented but the story is still the same. the GOM is an estimate based on an "alternate reality"

 

[jstack6]

We drove a friends KIA SOUL EV today and it is very efficient. The heat pump climate control is great.

I looked for the OBDII port under the dash and it doesn't seem to have one. The LEAF and FOCUS EVs have one ,why not the SOUL EV ?

 

[TomT]

There is no requirement, legally or otherwise, to have an OBDII port on an EV... They can use a proprietary port if they prefer... That said, it may be hidden elsewhere...

I looked for the OBDII port under the dash and it doesn't seem to have one. The LEAF and FOCUS EVs have one ,why not the SOUL EV ?

 

[electriccarfan]

Nope, I downloaded the Soul EV Owners manual and sifted through it. I didn't find anything about the OBD2 port. I thought manufacturers have been required by law since 1996 to build-in an OBD2 port, present only within a foot or so of the drivers feet?

Even the 90's EVs all had OBD2 ports, such as the Toyota RAV4 EV, Honda EV Plus, GM EV1, Ford Ranger EV, and the Chevy S10 EV (possibly more).

Why would Kia not include an OBD2 Diagnostics port in the Soul EV? That's a major hindrance and doesn't allow real-time monitoring of the vehicle nor troubleshooting error codes. And, if its a proprietary diagnostics port then that means you've got to go buy a special connector cable or adapter. That sucks because it could very well be expensive for that.

I guess if you buy the Kia Soul EV, then you can't use a LeafSpy equivalent!

 

[TomT]

Only for ICE vehicles. Tesla and Tesla drive-line cars don't not have one either.

I thought manufacturers have been required by law since 1996 to build-in an OBD2 port, present only within a foot or so of the drivers feet?

 

[electriccarfan]

Only for ICE vehicles. Tesla and Tesla drive-line cars don't not have one either.

I thought manufacturers have been required by law since 1996 to build-in an OBD2 port, present only within a foot or so of the drivers feet?

How does someone connect a Diagnostic tool, such as a Scangauge or LeafSpy then? If your Tesla has issues are you supposed to just let it rod in the driveway then?

 

[WetEV]

If your Tesla has issues are you supposed to just let it rod in the driveway then?

Get a Tesla Rod:

http://arcanum.wikia.com/wiki/Tesla_Rod" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[lorenfb]

Only for ICE vehicles. Tesla and Tesla drive-line cars don't not have one either.

I thought manufacturers have been required by law since 1996 to build-in an OBD2 port, present only within a foot or so of the drivers feet?

How does someone connect a Diagnostic tool, such as a Scangauge or LeafSpy then? If your Tesla has issues are you supposed to just let it rod in the driveway then?

There's obviously a diagnostic port on those vehicles, as it's necessary for the dealers to diagnose
vehicle problems and to do firmware re-flashings for the modules (ECUs). OTA updates, e.g. UI,
are limited in the extent of an ECU modification that can be done to a vehicle which usually is a
simple recoding, e.g. the speed when the doors auto-lock. The diagnostic port most likely is not
called an OBD2 port as used on '96 and later ICE vehicles for standardization in emissions testing.

There's nothing standard about the Leaf's use of the generic ODB2 connector and the electrical
interface other its #30 power (pin 16), ground (pin 8), and its two CAN bus ports with standard
CAN signals (CAN-High, CAN-Low).

 

[eloder]

Only for ICE vehicles. Tesla and Tesla drive-line cars don't not have one either.

I thought manufacturers have been required by law since 1996 to build-in an OBD2 port, present only within a foot or so of the drivers feet?

How does someone connect a Diagnostic tool, such as a Scangauge or LeafSpy then? If your Tesla has issues are you supposed to just let it rod in the driveway then?

I'm always a bit amazed how little Teslas are followed by early EV adopters. Most Tesla issues can be diagnosed OTA, and I'm sure they would have some sort of proprietary connection failing that.

Tesla batteries also degrade far less A) In cold weather, and B) in the long term. There are many reports at Tesla Motor Clubs of 170 mile range trips being taken between charges in 10-20 degree F temps at 75 mph. If the Tesla degraded as much as the leaf, you'd see a 100-125 mile ranges instead of 170. Tesla cold weather degradation is more similar to an ICE than it is to a Leaf.

Shorter trips without preconditoning suffer more, but still less than what you see on a Leaf.

The long-term degradation losses are the true champion of the Tesla, with confirmed repots of 8% battery loss after 100k miles of real-world driving.

This is not surprising though, because the Volt and a number of other active TMS / liquid cooled batteries also see Tesla-like short and long term degradation of range.

 

[lorenfb]

There are many reports at Tesla Motor Clubs of 170 mile range trips being taken between charges in 10-20 degree F temps at 75 mph. If the Tesla degraded as much as the leaf, you'd see a 100-125 mile ranges instead of 170. Tesla cold weather degradation is more similar to an ICE than it is to a Leaf. Shorter trips without preconditoning suffer more, but still less than what you see on a Leaf.
The long-term degradation losses are the true champion of the Tesla, with confirmed repots of 8% battery loss after 100k miles of real-world driving.

We consistently hear this anecdotal evidence presented randomly by what appears to be trolling posts to
minimize the Leaf. But there appears to be no actual real data as has been compiled extensively on this
website by users of the LeafDD and the LeafSpy diagnostic devices for the Leaf. Where are the reliable and
extensive Tesla battery data other than the hyperbole that gets presented on this website about it and
other EVs batteries? Please present it!

I'm always a bit amazed how little Teslas are followed by early EV adopters.

Really? Maybe because all that's made available is anecdotal info and the hyperbole from Elon!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

We drove a friends KIA SOUL EV today and it is very efficient. The heat pump climate control is great.

I looked for the OBDII port under the dash and it doesn't seem to have one. The LEAF and FOCUS EVs have one ,why not the SOUL EV ?

did you check under the front hood?