FOX NEWS just said Nissan is moving away from electric cars

[willk55]

I think the plug in hybrid is going to become big at first. The EV will then start catching on (especially if range improves and costs go down).

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Recently, 20% increase in 2013 in Leaf sale was predicted by Al Castignetti. Therefore, it appears that Nissan will probably produce about 15K Leaf for US market in 2013. They will produce more if there is demand, but otherwise if they produce to many we know what have to happen. Comments from Yokohama trip people assured me that Nissan is committed to Leaf (EV) and will work hard to further improve Leaf. However, they are car company and have to make profit to survive. Everyone is this business is exploring different options and adjusting to market condition, so nothing wrong that Nissan is exploring different options.

 

[Leafittome]

Nissan, like every car maker, has to up their CAFE numbers. Therefore, the easiest way to do this, besides EV's, are hybrids. As for hydrogen, if car makers really thought it was the way to go, they wouldn't be working with their competitors to get there.

 

[madbrain]

After googling I found this:

"Japanese automakers––Toyota and Nissan––are giving up the idea of making battery-powered Electric Vehicles."

http://nvonews.com/2013/02/04/green-cars-nissan-toyota-electric-cars-shelved/

The article says the automakers are "switching to hydrogen".

I am highly skeptical. If EVs which can be recharged at every single home in the country can't make it in the marketplace, how are hydrogen cars which have no refueling infrastructure whatsoever going to make it ?

 

[kentuckyleaf]

If EVs which can be recharged at every single home in the country can't make it in the marketplace, how are hydrogen cars which have no refueling infrastructure whatsoever going to make it ?

Hydrogen is easy, you just use the 12 volt battery in the car to make HHO, and then burn it. Somehow this gives you a perpetual supply of energy. I learned this on the Internet. Fox news is covering up this simple way to power your car.

 

[smkettner]

If hydrogen was so good the Honda Clarity should be leasing quite a few :roll:
But at $600 per month and no home charger it will be a harder sell than LEAF.
Anybody know what it costs to fill a Clarity with hydrogen?... range is only 240 miles.

 

[EVDRIVER]

If NIssan wants to stop making the LEAF then fine, please do it tomorrow. Resale value will jump way up, I'll sell it in a few years and buy the compact Tesla. If Tesla can produce and affordable EV with a decent range it will sell like crazy. Besides, they are more innovative and design a better EV. By the time the huge corporate bubble of Nissan finally starts getting things right Tesla may be outselling them 10 to 1. I just hope they offer it before the tax credits run out :lol:

 

[EdmondLeaf]

If hydrogen was so good the Honda Clarity should be leasing quite a few :roll:
But at $600 per month and no home charger it will be a harder sell than LEAF.
Anybody know what it costs to fill a Clarity with hydrogen?... range is only 240 miles.

$6-10/kg

 

[Sublime]

If EVs which can be recharged at every single home in the country can't make it in the marketplace, how are hydrogen cars which have no refueling infrastructure whatsoever going to make it ?

EVs are getting to be too viable, they need an easier straw man.

 

[GotMyleaf]

I noticed a few post/articles like this one;

http://www.insidejapantours.com/japan-news/2697/nissan-vice-chairman-electric-vehicle-not-viable-replacement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- that mistakenly state that Takeshi Uchiyamada works for Nissan. Uchiyamada works for Toyota which has been clear that it doesn't plan to build an EV and Uchiyamada was restating that at a press conference.

IMO, it is misinformation being put out in reponse to the big price drop on the 2013 LEAF.

 

[Train]

If NIssan wants to stop making the LEAF then fine, please do it tomorrow. Resale value will jump way up, I'll sell it in a few years and buy the compact Tesla. If Tesla can produce and affordable EV with a decent range it will sell like crazy. Besides, they are more innovative and design a better EV. By the time the huge corporate bubble of Nissan finally starts getting things right Tesla may be outselling them 10 to 1. I just hope they offer it before the tax credits run out :lol:

That's not going to happen. In fact, resale value will plummet even further if they were to stop making them.

If 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas. At the present time, it's difficult to make an EV that will provide significant range at an affordable price. That's the conundrum. That's why they're a niche car.

Tesla sales are going to eventually wane and by this time next year they are going to be fighting hard to sell their $60,000-$100,000 electric sedans. Extrapolating sales based on reservations is a big mistake and will prove to be a let down for many EV enthusiasts who have difficulty being objective.

I'm telling you, be prepared for some disappointing news in 12 months. Because when Tesla sedans start piling up in their Freemont parking lot, they'll be some head scratching. The Tesla fans, like the Leaf fans two years ago, are getting their cars now. It's easy to sell to the choir.

After the honeymoon period, and the rationalizing and justifying...many are going to be shaking their heads wondering how in the world they thought spending $90,000 for a four door sedan made any sense whatsoever. The majority of those thinking this will be people that have admitted that they have spent two to three times more for a car than they ever have in their life.

Emotion run amok. Again. They are so convinced about EV's they feel compelled and yes, obligated to support the cause...even it if means spending way more than they should.

It's gonna hurt.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Train you are forgetting the wild card... public policy.

 

[DaveEV]

IMO, it is misinformation being put out in reponse to the big price drop on the 2013 LEAF.

I often think the same thing. It is somewhat known that there is an army of paid shills (trolls) paid by right-wing organizations to post comments on "controversial" topics such as EVs.

Train you are forgetting the wild card... public policy.

How is public policy going to help Tesla sell more $60-$100k cars once all the early adopters have been satisfied? I certainly would argue that any public support should be targeted towards the meat of the market, meaning $20-$40k vehicles.

Now, Tesla does appear to have more demand than Nissan did when it launched the LEAF, but I also think they will be hard-pressed to move much more than 5-600/month in the USA past the summer. Luckily, they currently appear to only be planning to sell about 20,000 / year worldwide and I think there should be enough demand for the S and the X to keep the plant running at full capacity until the less expensive car is released.

 

[RegGuheert]

At the present time, it's difficult to make an EV that will provide significant range at an affordable price. That's the conundrum.

Agreed.

That's why they're a niche car.

That is a non-sequitur conclusion, assuming you are talking about EVs in general rather than the Tesla Model S. Why? Because just stating that a BEV has a limited range ignores the important point that it can be refueled cheaply at home. This single fact extends the addressable market to be very significant (not a niche) by doing the following:

- It makes an EV with the range of the LEAF usable for the MAJORITY of trips for most American families.
- It significantly reduces the fuel cost for each of the trips it replaces. This results in the 2013 LEAF "S" having a lower cost of ownership than a similar gasoline vehicle after about 60,000 miles without ANY government incentives. (Interestingly, electricity rates are so high for many in CA that the paybacks there are not as fast as in other areas of the country, even with additional government incentives. EV-centric rate plans and PV with its rate plans can help change this equation in CA, but PV has it's own set of market barriers.)
- It gives EV owners a significant benefit in allowing them to avoid gas-station stops.

But, there are still significant barriers to sales:
- Public perception is the biggest barrier. Many consumers do not understand that the LEAF can reliable replace 90+ percent of their trips. I venture to say that many here did not know that was the case until AFTER they bought their LEAF.
- Battery life is a critical parameter in the TCO equation, and in the LEAF it is not sufficient in many regions of the USA. Capacity life retention numbers of better than the 80% after 120,000 miles are needed to truly beat ICE TCO numbers. (If there is something to point at to argue that the LEAF is a niche car, THIS would be it, since it makes the LEAF less attractive from a purely TCO basis in large portions of the country.) Affordable leases take this issue out of the hands of the consumer, but only if the miles driven are sufficient to justify the lease payments (but not beyond the terms of the lease agreement). However, leases do not ELIMINATE the issue of battery life. It just transfers the problem back to the lessor.
- Purchasers need to be willing to incur additional risk up front to reduce overall costs. Many only consider monthly VEHICLE payments when making purchasing decisions. Frankly, the auto industry is largely to blame for this mindset. As a result, many overpay for their vehicles, even those who cannot afford to do so.
- EVs require a different use model than other vehicles. This means that people need to change their behavior to make an EV work for them. Unfortunately, humans tend to resist change. The change will come, but it will take time. Those people more resistant to change will simply need to wait until EVs require LESS of a change than they currently do. That will happen as the products mature.
- Frankly, most consumers do not have sufficient knowledge or visibility of EVs in general or the LEAF specifically to understand the issues laid out here. This results in avoidance simply because of the very real fear of the unknown that they have. While education by manufacturers can help here, this barrier will only be eroded by people seeing EVs working for people they know and trust.

The point is that the range of affordable EVs may limit their uses but that does not mean they are relegated to a niche. As I have stated before, the LEAF can address the needs of probably about 10 million American commuters today. That is roughly the addressable market size IME. But there are barriers that must be torn down in order to grow sales. Both the technical and the psychological barriers are real and they will erode as time marches on.

 

[cwerdna]

Another one. This one says it could be the end of the Volt as well.

http://nlpc.org/stories/2013/02/05/did-toyota-and-nissan-ring-death-knell-evs-and-chevy-volt

NLPC has come up at least 2x before here on MNL.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=196532#p196532" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=149245#p149245" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I noticed a few post/articles like this one;

http://www.insidejapantours.com/japan-news/2697/nissan-vice-chairman-electric-vehicle-not-viable-replacement" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- that mistakenly state that Takeshi Uchiyamada works for Nissan. Uchiyamada works for Toyota which has been clear that it doesn't plan to build an EV and Uchiyamada was restating that at a press conference.

IMO, it is misinformation being put out in reponse to the big price drop on the 2013 LEAF.

Good catch!

I agree. It seems like there are a bunch of paid shills or even a coordinated conspiracy going on.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

How is public policy going to help Tesla sell more $60-$100k cars once all the early adopters have been satisfied? I certainly would argue that any public support should be targeted towards the meat of the market, meaning $20-$40k vehicles.

It could be, or it could apply more broadly. We may just be seeing the beginning of the carrot and the stick, which so far has been mostly carrot. The possibilities are endless. No, I don't think we'll see drone strikes on ICE cars, but they could levy high taxes on them, as discussed on http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11534" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

You probably already have a huge untapped market of luxury car buyers who will buy teslas just for the HOV lane stickers, who just couldn't face taking the hit to their image that a Leaf or a Volt would incur.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I know but how can they just say something like this? They didn't quote anyone form Nissan or say where they got the information. It was in the "Grapevine" segment about 5 mintues ago.

i read the article and its simply "creative" assumptions. Fox contends that because Nissan is offering more hybrids and extended range hybrids with plugs that means they are moving away from "something" to go to these new vehicles so they chose what best fit the theme of their story which is EV failure.

What they failed to mention is that Nissan has invested over 5 Billion into EVs, has several EVs for release in the next 4 years (these are no longer prototypes, or "wishes". they have a set production date, price, etc. and are "99 percent" set and that comes from the very top Nissan brass)

so you could take the exact same info and turn it around to a "slightly" more reasonable assumption and say that Nissan is moving away from straight gas cars like everyone else is but lets face it. since everyone is doing this, is that "newsworthy?"

I leave the answer up to you

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If that were true, why would they spend a gazillion $ and all that time and labor on a new battery plant and expand the Smyrna TN plant to make LEAFs in the US?

Just so they can stop making batteries and LEAFs....Yeah, right....

actually they spent TWO gazillion. remember they are doing the same thing in England and that plant launches in a few weeks

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If hydrogen was so good the Honda Clarity should be leasing quite a few :roll:
But at $600 per month and no home charger it will be a harder sell than LEAF.
Anybody know what it costs to fill a Clarity with hydrogen?... range is only 240 miles.

zero. most H leases I have seen (which is not many) include the fuel as part of the lease cost. also, there are now H cars reportedly getting nearly 400 miles on a charge which is good since the station is probably a good 15-30 miles out of your way!

I think H is a viable *cough* option for some. it does fuel faster but then again, if I add in the time to make that 30 mile detour to fill up with H generated from electricity at a what?? 5 to 1 ratio or has it improved? ok, we say 3 to 1 (which means I could drive 3 miles in my LEAF for the electricity needed to drive a mile in my H)

or would I rather spend 15 minutes just get a 60% charge in my LEAF at a QC on the way to my destination?

 

[smkettner]

Honda Clarity page said 240 miles. No mention of free fuel.
Are these 400 mile range cars in production?
I would assume they cost more than the Honda.