Stoaty said:
A poor response to the objection which does not get to the heart of the matter: the oft stated claim by Nissan employees that the "average" vehicle would retain 80% of capacity at 5 years and 70% at 10 years. We were assured over and over that Nissan had been working on Lithium ion batteries for over 15 years and they knew that their batteries would perform as stated. If my Leaf, driven extremely conservatively and never abused, never quick charged, kept at a low SOC (30-50%) for most of its life, never subjected to extremely high temperatures, and with only 22,600 miles in 29 months were to meet this standard, I would be very pleased. I don't see that happening based on the Battery Aging Model and my own observations of capacity loss... unless I lose only 4% more capacity over the next 2 years and 7 months. If Nissan had disclosed that for my climate I should expect a bit over 6 years use before I hit 70% loss I likely would have passed on the Leaf.
Well said, Stoaty.
Some quotes from NNA's response to Mr. Kozinski which ruffled my feathers.
NNA’s website showed that NNA provided customers with a bounty of accurate information about their vehicles and what they could expect from their batteries.
BS: All NNA supplied us with was to expect 80% after 5 years and 70% at 8 years and that it may vary - but most would get to 10 years and still have 70-80% capacity remaining. NNA never told us how much to expect it to vary specifically, except that Dubai was too hot. Given than Phoenix is not as hot as Dubai, but was a launch market, what else are we supposed to assume other than Phoenix LEAFs would not vary significantly from their expectations and certainly not by a factor of 4! I supposed by providing no upper/lower bounds on what to expect, NNA can say with a straight face that the information provided is "accurate"!
Factors that will affect and may hasten the rate of capacity loss include, but are not limited to:
exposure to very high ambient temperatures for extended periods of time, driving habits, vehicle usage, and charging habits. (Quick Charging the vehicle more than once per day.)15
Here's what the owners manual says:
1. Avoid ambient temps over 120F for 24+ hours (really hard to do unless you are baking the car)
2. Let vehicle and battery cool down after use before charging (this is the most useless advice ever unless doing multiple QCs/day).
3. Park/store out of direct sunlight and away from heat sources. (really? Nissan doesn't even follow this at the dealer lot and while shade does grow on trees, it is completely unrealistic to expect people to park in the shade all the time)
4. Minimize use of QC (duh)
5. Avoid exceeding 70-80% SOC when using QC more than once/week (never mind that cars that never/rarely QC still experienced rapid capacity loss)
6. Allow battery to be below 80% before charging (ok)
7. Moderate driving (what is defined as moderate?)
8. Use of ECO mode (doesn't actually do anything for battery life except encourage one to accelerate more slowly)
9. Use long-life charge mode unless vehicle is going to be driven a long distance (ok, but there were statements made that said to ignore this advice, and 80% charging appears to have had a negligible effect on rate of capacity loss).
I will note that it takes conscious effort for one to follow 4 of these steps and that Nissan could have easily made two of them (ECO mode, 80% charging) the default.
That is why warranties have both time and mileage limitations. Why would an electric battery be different from an engine, brake rotors, a fuel hose or any other vehicle component?
I don't think that anyone (including Mr. Kozinski) expects anything different. Why are they raising strawmen?
Nevertheless, they have lost only one of twelve bars of capacity as reflected on the vehicle’s battery capacity gauge
Extremely misleading by neglecting to note that the first capacity bar means that their battery has lost between 15-20% of it's capacity.
An unsolicited email received on November 14, 2013 by counsel for NNA from class member David Silvan reflects this sentiment:
I purchased a 2011 Nissan LEAF over two years ago and have been very happy with it. I have driven over 47,000 miles in it, using it not only for commuting but also as a family vehicle. . . . Even with the 2.5 years of active use, I have yet to see a discernible drop in my battery capacity.
Anyone want to guess where Mr. Silvan lives? (hint - our most well known high mileage LEAF owner resides there). Never mind that I highly suspect with that many miles he is close to losing a bar despite living there. If he doesn't notice a loss of ~10-15% capacity I'm not sure what to say... We've seen others make the same claims before, but they typically reverse their position within another year.
Anyway, I am glad that Mr Kozinski is on this and hope that he is successful for all our sake.