Electricity Costs vs Gallon of Gas

[ELROY]

Found it interesting how expensive an equivalent gallon of gas would be at current utility rates.
Even at my discounted "super off peak" TOUEV .17cents/kWh rate, I am paying the equivalent of $5.68 gallon!

And at my previous tier 5 (.32 cents/kWh) rate, I was paying over $10/gallon gas equivalent rates.

Just goes to show how important it is to get the cheapest utility rates you can get.
On the other hand, the LEAF is so efficient, no matter what kWh rate I have been on, its still beats the fuel efficiency of just about all the ICEs available out there.

Case in point....last trip was a relatively casual 4.2 kWh avg economy (dash reading) over 52 miles.
Took 4hrs to charge. So about $2.60 in electricity at the .17 cents/kWh rate. So at current gas prices ~$3.60/gallon (SoCal), I am still paying no more than a ICE getting 72mpg. At .32cent/kWh, I would have bettered most ICE cars except for the hybrids. On the other hand...if I had a .12cent/hr rate (with a seperate meter), my equivalent mileage would be about 104mpg.

In order to get that cheaper rate I would have to install a seperate meter (with permitting), approx $1000 in cost.
At 1000 mile/month (12000 mils per year), my monthly saviings between the .17cents vs .12 rate would only be about $12-$15/month. Multiply that by my 36months left on my lease ($540), and I still would spend more on having the seperate meter installed.

 

[DanBaldwin]

I ran into the exact same issue. I wanted to use the tou-ev rate ($.12/kwh), but had to install an extra meter to get that rate. I wanted an L2 EVSE for convenience anyway, and I had to run 230 volt wiring from the panel to do it, so the only extra I had to pay was the cost of the meter panel, and the permit from the city of Norwalk. I had a friend do the installation that owed me a favor. The total extra I had to pay for the meter panel was about $250.00, so it made sense for me. Of course, if I decide to get another electric vehicle after the Leaf lease, I'm already set up.

 

[ELROY]

I ran into the exact same issue. I wanted to use the tou-ev rate ($.12/kwh), but had to install an extra meter to get that rate. I wanted an L2 EVSE for convenience anyway, and I had to run 230 volt wiring from the panel to do it, so the only extra I had to pay was the cost of the meter panel, and the permit from the city of Norwalk. I had a friend do the installation that owed me a favor. The total extra I had to pay for the meter panel was about $250.00, so it made sense for me. Of course, if I decide to get another electric vehicle after the Leaf lease, I'm already set up.

That totally makes sense if you already have an electrician set up doing the work. I was considering going solar, but realistically with the small incentives now available, and the small cost of electricity that the LEAF represents in 12000miles/yr of driving, the ROI would be quite some time.

 

[Boomer23]

I ran into the exact same issue. I wanted to use the tou-ev rate ($.12/kwh), but had to install an extra meter to get that rate. I wanted an L2 EVSE for convenience anyway, and I had to run 230 volt wiring from the panel to do it, so the only extra I had to pay was the cost of the meter panel, and the permit from the city of Norwalk. I had a friend do the installation that owed me a favor. The total extra I had to pay for the meter panel was about $250.00, so it made sense for me. Of course, if I decide to get another electric vehicle after the Leaf lease, I'm already set up.

That totally makes sense if you already have an electrician set up doing the work. I was considering going solar, but realistically with the small incentives now available, and the small cost of electricity that the LEAF represents in 12000miles/yr of driving, the ROI would be quite some time.

CA state solar incentives have declined, but the Fed incentive is still a 30% tax credit, I believe, and system costs/installed Watt have dropped due to various market and technological changes. So my impression is that solar is a pretty viable option.

 

[ELROY]

I ran into the exact same issue. I wanted to use the tou-ev rate ($.12/kwh), but had to install an extra meter to get that rate. I wanted an L2 EVSE for convenience anyway, and I had to run 230 volt wiring from the panel to do it, so the only extra I had to pay was the cost of the meter panel, and the permit from the city of Norwalk. I had a friend do the installation that owed me a favor. The total extra I had to pay for the meter panel was about $250.00, so it made sense for me. Of course, if I decide to get another electric vehicle after the Leaf lease, I'm already set up.

That totally makes sense if you already have an electrician set up doing the work. I was considering going solar, but realistically with the small incentives now available, and the small cost of electricity that the LEAF represents in 12000miles/yr of driving, the ROI would be quite some time.

CA state solar incentives have declined, but the Fed incentive is still a 30% tax credit, I believe, and system costs/installed Watt have dropped due to various market and technological changes. So my impression is that solar is a pretty viable option.

Its amazing how much some of these contractors charge. $5 watt seems to be on the cheaper end!

It is still amazing that geothermal generates about 8x more energy than solar for SCE.

 

[GRA]

It is still amazing that geothermal generates about 8x more energy than solar for SCE.

That really shows the effect of the much higher capacity factor of geothermal, biomass and to a considerable extent small hydro over intermittent renewables (solar/wind). Being dispatchable matters when you can't store electricity.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ya, ok now get your 90+% efficient ICE out and then lets compare numbers.

if you run an analysis based on the true cost to fuel each vehicle a LEAF verses an ICE, you might sing a different tune.

look at my sig. its a 50 mpg Prius verses the LEAF and sure, I have cheap electricity but pay an additional 1.25 cents/kwh on the green power program but its still nearly 3X cheaper to drive electric. now that gas is much cheaper than normal, its only about 2.5X

 

[philipscoggins]

I pay $0.09/kWh

I drove 1900 miles last month and my Blink station says I used about $57 in electricity. That looked right on by my electricity bill so...

$57.00/1900 miles = $0.03/mile

My LEAF replaced my accord which cost me an average of $210/month. Not to mention oil changes, emissions/exhaust system, eventual transmission, leaky seals...

I'd say my savings are significant.

My gas savings are projected to my right at $2000/year. So when I have to replace my high mileage battery pack in 7-8 years I will have saves $14,000 or $16,000 in just fuel costs so a $4,000 or $5,000 battery pack doesn't seem like a a bad deal. Or possibly topping it off in 4 or 5 years.

Now I understand TN has much cheaper electricity than you west coasters, but gas also costs much less (I saw $2.98 yesterday which caught my eye).

Philip

 

[EdmondLeaf]

I pay $0.09/kWh

I drove 1900 miles last month and my Blink station says I used about $57 in electricity. That looked right on by my electricity bill so...

$57.00/1900 miles = $0.03/mile

My LEAF replaced my accord which cost me an average of $210/month. Not to mention oil changes, emissions/exhaust system, eventual transmission, leaky seals...

I'd say my savings are significant.

My gas savings are projected to my right at $2000/year. So when I have to replace my high mileage battery pack in 7-8 years I will have saves $14,000 or $16,000 in just fuel costs so a $4,000 or $5,000 battery pack doesn't seem like a a bad deal. Or possibly topping it off in 4 or 5 years.

Now I understand TN has much cheaper electricity than you west coasters, but gas also costs much less (I saw $2.98 yesterday which caught my eye).

Philip

I just wish will be that simple to convert to EV, just tell them how much they will save in gas cost. Unfortunately is not that simple. Low lease rates combined with rebates are doing good job, but still future regular buyers have to be willing to scarify a bit of autonomy.

 

[philipscoggins]

I also have to admit that 98% of my driving is in TN around hometown or along the interstate which has the Blink DCQC about every 30 miles. That makes it so I could park my old car to save for my 14yr old. Without the QC stations I'd still be burning gas every couple weeks. Little over 2 months and only time I had to park my LEAF was a trip out of state where I used Nissan's one2one program with the free rental car. New-ish Altima, bumpy & cost a lot to drive, wish they'd had a model S to drive for roadtrips :lol:

Philip

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I pay $0.09/kWh

I drove 1900 miles last month and my Blink station says I used about $57 in electricity. That looked right on by my electricity bill so...

$57.00/1900 miles = $0.03/mile

My LEAF replaced my accord which cost me an average of $210/month. Not to mention oil changes, emissions/exhaust system, eventual transmission, leaky seals...

I'd say my savings are significant.

My gas savings are projected to my right at $2000/year. So when I have to replace my high mileage battery pack in 7-8 years I will have saves $14,000 or $16,000 in just fuel costs so a $4,000 or $5,000 battery pack doesn't seem like a a bad deal. Or possibly topping it off in 4 or 5 years.

Now I understand TN has much cheaper electricity than you west coasters, but gas also costs much less (I saw $2.98 yesterday which caught my eye).

Philip

which is the point I am trying to make. on a "penny" basis, I am at 2.3 cents per mile on the LEAF from day one. remove the free charging and its just a hair over 2.5 cents per mile.

now i "had" a Prius that during the same distance costs 7.6 cents per mile while averaging 50.3 mpg.

so, my driving is less than yours but I dont burn gas as much either so my savings are more like $68 a month on average in fuel alone. now if your other car doesnt get 50 MPG, then it just goes up from there.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I also have to admit that 98% of my driving is in TN around hometown or along the interstate which has the Blink DCQC about every 30 miles. That makes it so I could park my old car to save for my 14yr old. Without the QC stations I'd still be burning gas every couple weeks. Little over 2 months and only time I had to park my LEAF was a trip out of state where I used Nissan's one2one program with the free rental car. New-ish Altima, bumpy & cost a lot to drive, wish they'd had a model S to drive for roadtrips :lol:

Philip

Phillip; what did it cost you or how do you qualify for the "one to one" program? never heard of it...

 

[RegGuheert]

I topped off our Ford E350 Maxivan yesterday. The gasoline to refill it cost almost $16.00 and we had driven a total of 52.6 miles. Since we pay about $0.10/kWh for electricity, I realized the LEAF could travel that far for less than $1.60. OTOH, the LEAF could not even come close to carrying what the van hauled in those miles!

 

[JeremyW]

This chart is forgetting something important.

The leaf gets 99 MPGe. So, while an electric gallon may be $10.02 at our equivalent $0.30/kWh... you are still getting ~99 miles out of it. Or another way: my last car got 24mpg on the highway, it would take 4.125 gallons or $16.50 (at $4/gal) to go the same distance.

This is why everyone talks about cents/mile. Efficiency and fuel cost come in to play here. The multifaceted beauty of electric propulsion.

Fortunately those who have cheap fuel prices tend to have cheap electric rates. We'll get 'em one way or another. :twisted:

 

[DaveEV]

OTOH, the LEAF could not even come close to carrying what the van hauled in those miles!

With a trailer and hitch I bet it could have done it.

 

[smkettner]

These are BTU conversions. Someone will correct me but ~90% of the electric BTU is used for actual propulsion vs maybe 35% of the gasoline BTU gets to the drive wheels.

http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2012/06/14/how-to-convert-gasoline-energy-to-kilowatt-hours-kwh/

 

[dgpcolorado]

I pay $0.09/kWh

I drove 1900 miles last month and my Blink station says I used about $57 in electricity. That looked right on by my electricity bill so...

$57.00/1900 miles = $0.03/mile

My LEAF replaced my accord which cost me an average of $210/month. Not to mention oil changes, emissions/exhaust system, eventual transmission, leaky seals...

I'd say my savings are significant.

My gas savings are projected to my right at $2000/year. So when I have to replace my high mileage battery pack in 7-8 years I will have saves $14,000 or $16,000 in just fuel costs so a $4,000 or $5,000 battery pack doesn't seem like a a bad deal. Or possibly topping it off in 4 or 5 years.

Now I understand TN has much cheaper electricity than you west coasters, but gas also costs much less (I saw $2.98 yesterday which caught my eye).

Philip

The numbers seem to work for very high mileage drivers, such as you. 1900 miles per month, 23K miles/year is a lot! But as a low mileage driver, about 7400 miles/year, the cost of the battery pack replacement kills any fuel savings. Say I'm optimistic and can limp to ten years before replacing the battery pack and the pack costs $10,000. That's an additional $10,000/74,000 = 13.5¢/mile on top of the electricity costs (although my solar electricity is "free" since I have already bought the panels and they should last another ten years easily).

My ICE car gets 23 mpg and gas is currently $2.58/gallon. That's 11¢/gallon, which is less than the cost of replacing the LEAF battery.

Of course, there are a lot of assumptions:

• How much will a 24 kWh LEAF battery cost in ten years? Will there even be any available? (Now, there's a scary thought...)

• How much will gas cost over the next ten years? It seems likely that it will be more than today's $2.58/gallon but it is possible that it could be even less.

• What would the maintenance costs be for my ICE car if I drove it for an additional 74,000 miles? What will the maintenance costs for the LEAF be? (If the OBC goes out the repair cost will be huge. Even replacing a headlight appears to be a major expense.)


Compared to a used ICE car the LEAF just isn't cost effective. But it is a lot more fun to drive and it doesn't use oil as fuel, both of which are of value to me.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

The numbers seem to work for very high mileage drivers, such as you. 1900 miles per month, 23K miles/year is a lot! But as a low mileage driver, about 7400 miles/year, the cost of the battery pack replacement kills any fuel savings. Say I'm optimistic and can limp to ten years before replacing the battery pack and the pack costs $10,000. That's an additional $10,000/74,000 = 13.5¢/mile on top of the electricity costs (although my solar electricity is "free" since I have already bought the panels and they should last another ten years easily).

My ICE car gets 23 mpg and gas is currently $2.58/gallon. That's 11¢/gallon, which is less than the cost of replacing the LEAF battery.

Of course, there are a lot of assumptions:

• How much will a 24 kWh LEAF battery cost in ten years? Will there even be any available? (Now, there's a scary thought...)

• How much will gas cost over the next ten years? It seems likely that it will be more than today's $2.58/gallon but it is possible that it could be even less.

• What would the maintenance costs be for my ICE car if I drove it for an additional 74,000 miles? What will the maintenance costs for the LEAF be? (If the OBC goes out the repair cost will be huge. Even replacing a headlight appears to be a major expense.)


Compared to a used ICE car the LEAF just isn't cost effective. But it is a lot more fun to drive and it doesn't use oil as fuel, both of which are of value to me.

I completely agree with all you said and adding that is basically passenger car not really suitable to carry cargo. Having "fuel pump" in the garage is also big benefit. IMO biggest problem for wide adoption of EV is that people just not ready for switch. Convenience, cost and autonomy are main factors.

 

[Stanton]

Of course, there are a lot of assumptions:

• How much will a 24 kWh LEAF battery cost in ten years? Will there even be any available? (Now, there's a scary thought...)

• How much will gas cost over the next ten years? It seems likely that it will be more than today's $2.58/gallon but it is possible that it could be even less.

• What would the maintenance costs be for my ICE car if I drove it for an additional 74,000 miles? What will the maintenance costs for the LEAF be? (If the OBC goes out the repair cost will be huge. Even replacing a headlight appears to be a major expense.)

Compared to a used ICE car the LEAF just isn't cost effective. But it is a lot more fun to drive and it doesn't use oil as fuel, both of which are of value to me.

No one has a crystal ball, but I've done some research and feel pretty confident that:
1) I believe that Nissan--as a MAJOR global car manufacturer more committed to BEV than any other--have designed a battery+platform that will not only be supported at least as long as the warranties they issue (8-10 years), but will offer the option of upgrading to a higher capacity (in the same form factor) down the road...and I believe it will be MUCH < $10k
2) I don't think there's any doubt that gas prices will go anywhere but up in the long term (and they're not even $2.58 now--at least not in TX, which typically has cheap gas).
3) I'll admit maintenance is a wild card (which is why I bought an extended warranty), but based on the $$ I have been sinking into my (aging) ICE cars lately, I don't see how it could be any worse for the Leaf.

 

[philipscoggins]

I have to admit I didn't consider what would happen if Nissan abandoned the car... :shock: But let's hope that doesn't happen!

Since I drive close to 24k miles/year I expect that I will probably replace my battery in 7 or 8 years. I also expect the battery to not cost $10,000. We had a thread speculating battery replacement at about $5,000 a little while back that had some good reasoning behind it. I'd like to imagine that 7 or 8 years from now that price will come down some and capacity will go up some.

The EV conversion market is booming right now. I watched a video a few weeks ago where J1772 charge ports are on lots of conversions now & they are testing lots of different batteries from various companies. If Nissan walks away I believe the conversion people would be more than happy to help with the LEAFs, it would give them lots of customers that have a need for support.

Anyway, I know I am saving over $160/month charging my EV over what I spent prior to that in my ice car. My maintenance is expected to be drastically lower & I'm a happy customer

Philip