Do-it-yourselfer naivete...?

[Yanquetino]

1) Does anyone think it important that the recharging process be safe enough for children (say 5 to 12) playing around the cord on either end (especially in wet conditions on their bare feet) or maybe with an extension cord because the cord was too short?
2) Does it give you pause to know that most GFCI circuitry in use today (the primary protection for line to ground electrocution -- see above) has a significant protection failure rate?
3) Do you think most adults are adequately informed about electrical hazards, especially outside in wet conditions?
4) Do you think there are powerful corporate entities that would like to seize upon EV mishaps to spread anti-EV propaganda to enhance their own narrow financial interests?
5) Do you think insurance companies might raise their rates in connection to EVs (at least initially) if there were uncertainties with their safety?

1) Oh, yes... as with any plugged in electrical cord just lying around in the garage or outside.
2) Not really; nor does it surprise me. The best protection is always human awareness.
3) Most, yes, but certainly not all: there will always be a few candidates for Darwin Awards.
4) Yup, sadly... and they will. Just wait: Murphy is alive and well, no matter what precautions we take.
5) They likely will anyway, just like has occured with the unproven uncertainty about the need for VSP.

 

[Norway]

1) Does anyone think it important that the recharging process be safe enough for children (say 5 to 12) playing around the cord on either end (especially in wet conditions on their bare feet) or maybe with an extension cord because the cord was too short?
2) Does it give you pause to know that most GFCI circuitry in use today (the primary protection for line to ground electrocution -- see above) has a significant protection failure rate?
3) Do you think most adults are adequately informed about electrical hazards, especially outside in wet conditions?
4) Do you think there are powerful corporate entities that would like to seize upon EV mishaps to spread anti-EV propaganda to enhance their own narrow financial interests?
5) Do you think insurance companies might raise their rates in connection to EVs (at least initially) if there were uncertainties with their safety?

1) As the system could cut the electricity if the cable is disconnected from the car, there would be no significant danger. It would be safer than a standard hairdryer, electric lawnmower, etc. It is not especially dangerous just because it is a car.

2) But again, this is equally valid for any electrical equipment in your kitchen (which may not even be protected), in your bathroom, or in your garage.

3) See 2.

4) Probably, but I think that they realise they would be fighting a loosing battle. In most of the world the battle is to be greenest.

5) Depends on what safety aspect you are talking about.

 

[garygid]

Some Prius faults were found and corrected, another "feature" was re-designed (firmware) to make it less obtrusive, and I suspect at least one infrequently-occuring "bug" remains.

HOWEVER, compared to the NO GAS type (real) EV, the Prius was just a non-controversial, embarrassingly higher-mileage GAS car.

The NO GAS car will ... cause reactions, I suspect.

 

[Yanquetino]

The EVSE, when connected to some circuit, is (presumably) properly set to tell the EV (via the Control Pilot signal) what maximum current is available from that particular "e-hose".

Yeah, that's what I understand about the EVSE's function. What I don't understand is... why isn't the Control Pilot signal *in* the EV itself? It would still be a "safety buffer" between the current and the onboard charger, whether in or out of the vehicle.

I might be mistaken, but it almost seems like the regulators in this country insist on putting the Control Pilot signal in the EVSE precisely because they do not want drivers to simply be able to plug in their EVs --like Llewellyn does above. Unless, of course, the drivers want to plug in their Winnebagos instead. In that instance... no problem: they could wire their garages just like I speculated to start this thread. Go figure. :roll:

 

[Norway]

The EVSE, when connected to some circuit, is (presumably) properly set to tell the EV (via the Control Pilot signal) what maximum current is available from that particular "e-hose".

Yeah, that's what I understand about the EVSE's function. What I don't understand is... why isn't the Control Pilot signal *in* the EV itself? It would still be a "safety buffer" between the current and the onboard charger, whether in or out of the vehicle.

I might be mistaken, but it almost seems like the regulators in this country insist on putting the Control Pilot signal in the EVSE precisely because they do not want drivers to simply be able to plug in their EVs --like Llewellyn does above. Unless, of course, the drivers want to plug in their Winnebagos instead. In that instance... no problem: they could wire their garages just like I speculated to start this thread. Go figure. :roll:

Having an intelligent EVSE has a function when it is hardwired to the wall, and it knows how much current is available.

However, once the EVSE is a "soap on a string", it obviously doesn't know the fuse rating of the socket it is being plugged into, so then one either needs to tell the EVSE that "this is a 13A socket" or "this is a 16A socket", or you need different EVSEs for different sockets.

 

[Randy]

I thought the pilot signal has to be generated by the EVSE so it can tell the car what the proper charge rate is for the EVSE as configured/connected? By putting the pilot generating electronics on the car, that seems backwards. The car doesn't know what charge rate the EVSE is capable of...

 

[Norway]

I thought the pilot signal has to be generated by the EVSE so it can tell the car what the proper charge rate is for the EVSE as configured/connected? By putting the pilot generating electronics on the car, that seems backwards. The car doesn't know what charge rate the EVSE is capable of...

That is true, but the EVSE (unless it is nailed to the wall) also does not know what current/power the socket it is plugged into is capable off.

I would imagine that there will be small extention cables with the control signal built in, and a standard 16A plug on the wall end.

In Europe, there is also a 3-phase standard (available in most commercial premises) and even with only 16A fuses, one can draw over 10 kW, if the charger in the car can handle that.

 

[Spies]

Considering the $475 price of the J connector you may as well get a Voltec evse for $490 and just plug into a 6-20r

Clipper Creek is now selling a UL listed SAE-J1772 30 amp connector with 25' cable for $350 plus $25 for shipping and handling. I plan on purchasing one to retrofit my current EVSE. I am putting off ordering for now in hopes some competition will come along soon and push the price lower.

 

[Yanquetino]

I thought the pilot signal has to be generated by the EVSE so it can tell the car what the proper charge rate is for the EVSE as configured/connected? By putting the pilot generating electronics on the car, that seems backwards. The car doesn't know what charge rate the EVSE is capable of...

I am confused, then, about what the Control Pilot does. I thought that it "sensed" whatever current was available, and then passed along those parameters to the charger. At least this seems to be what the "soap" on the rope of the Tesla Universal Mobile Connector does:

Apparently, you can buy all these separate adaptor plugs for it, and the "soap" senses the charge rate available:

You can see that the possibilities range from a low of a NEMA 5-15 15A plug to a high of NEMA 14-50 50A plug.

So again... why not put that Control Pilot "soap" in the EV, rather than on the "rope" --or in the EVSE? It would still sense whatever plug, volts, and amps you are using, and clue the charger accordingly. Wouldn't it? :?:

 

[TRONZ]

I hope not OT. But regarding charger options and do it yourselfer ideas, when is Tesla going to adopt the J1772 standard? It would seem once they do then we will all have another EVSE choice and more DIY parts available. I visited the Santa Monica Tesla dealer a couple months ago and the sales guy seemed to know nothing about the J1772 standard?!? Once they do, it might provide another parts opportunity for DIY people.

 

[Norway]

I thought the pilot signal has to be generated by the EVSE so it can tell the car what the proper charge rate is for the EVSE as configured/connected? By putting the pilot generating electronics on the car, that seems backwards. The car doesn't know what charge rate the EVSE is capable of...

I am confused, then, about what the Control Pilot does. I thought that it "sensed" whatever current was available, and then passed along those parameters to the charger. At least this seems to be what the "soap" on the rope of the Tesla Universal Mobile Connector does:

Apparently, you can buy all these separate adaptor plugs for it, and the "soap" senses the charge rate available:


You can see that the possibilities range from a low of a NEMA 5-15 15A plug to a high of NEMA 14-50 50A plug.

So again... why not put that Control Pilot "soap" in the EV, rather than on the "rope" --or in the EVSE? It would still sense whatever plug, volts, and amps you are using, and clue the charger accordingly. Wouldn't it? :?:

Hi,

The only way one can sense how much current is available from a socket is to gradually increase until the fuse blows, then reduce the current and replace the fuse! :mrgreen:

I guess what that thing does is have a slightly different plugin for each plug, so if you use a 15A plug, the unit knows to signal 15A. But the coding is in the plug to the "soap", and if you had a 15A plug, but with a 10A fuse behind it, the fuse would blow.

 

[Yanquetino]

I guess what that thing does is have a slightly different plugin for each plug, so if you use a 15A plug, the unit knows to signal 15A. But the coding is in the plug to the "soap", and if you had a 15A plug, but with a 10A fuse behind it, the fuse would blow.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "plugin." Like in a browser, is it a bit of coding to tell the "soap" what amps are headed down the "e-hose"? A sort of "firmware" uploaded to each adaptor? Maybe... although the adaptors look pretty standard to me:

However, for argument's sake, let's say that the adaptors do have their own individual plugins. That wouldn't prohibit putting the "soap" inside the EV, right? It would just necessitate the other end of the cable having the right plugin for its plug. Maybe that's what Llewellyn has in his iMiEV plug...?

 

[mitch672]

It's very likely all of those Tesla adapters above have a resistor on 2 pins of the connector, telling the EVSE on the cable what the maximum current draw is for that type of connector. That's the only way it could work.

 

[smkettner]

What does that set of adapters cost?
What is the final inlet configuration for Tesla?
What gives Tesla the exemption from NEC 625 and use of the J connector?

 

[Yanquetino]

It's very likely all of those Tesla adapters above have a resistor on 2 pins of the connector, telling the EVSE on the cable what the maximum current draw is for that type of connector. That's the only way it could work.

Yeah, that would explain it. If so... then Nissan really could put the "soap" ("EVSE on the cable") inside the LEAF, and make sure the other end has the proper resistor for its plug (or plugs, with a handful of adaptors).

 

[EVDRIVER]

The EVSE, when connected to some circuit, is (presumably) properly set to tell the EV (via the Control Pilot signal) what maximum current is available from that particular "e-hose".

Yeah, that's what I understand about the EVSE's function. What I don't understand is... why isn't the Control Pilot signal *in* the EV itself? It would still be a "safety buffer" between the current and the onboard charger, whether in or out of the vehicle.

I might be mistaken, but it almost seems like the regulators in this country insist on putting the Control Pilot signal in the EVSE precisely because they do not want drivers to simply be able to plug in their EVs --like Llewellyn does above. Unless, of course, the drivers want to plug in their Winnebagos instead. In that instance... no problem: they could wire their garages just like I speculated to start this thread. Go figure. :roll:

Having an intelligent EVSE has a function when it is hardwired to the wall, and it knows how much current is available.

However, once the EVSE is a "soap on a string", it obviously doesn't know the fuse rating of the socket it is being plugged into, so then one either needs to tell the EVSE that "this is a 13A socket" or "this is a 16A socket", or you need different EVSEs for different sockets.

Yes it does, because of the plug it has on the end dictates capacity of the outlet and it is set according to the plug type. If you use adaptors then it is the responsibility of the use to know or make that determination.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I thought the pilot signal has to be generated by the EVSE so it can tell the car what the proper charge rate is for the EVSE as configured/connected? By putting the pilot generating electronics on the car, that seems backwards. The car doesn't know what charge rate the EVSE is capable of...

I am confused, then, about what the Control Pilot does. I thought that it "sensed" whatever current was available, and then passed along those parameters to the charger. At least this seems to be what the "soap" on the rope of the Tesla Universal Mobile Connector does:

Apparently, you can buy all these separate adaptor plugs for it, and the "soap" senses the charge rate available:

You can see that the possibilities range from a low of a NEMA 5-15 15A plug to a high of NEMA 14-50 50A plug.

So again... why not put that Control Pilot "soap" in the EV, rather than on the "rope" --or in the EVSE? It would still sense whatever plug, volts, and amps you are using, and clue the charger accordingly. Wouldn't it? :?:

It is ok to use a plug with higher capacity than what your charger but not lower, that is why the signal is on the EVSE and NOT the car, otherwise there is no point to a plot signal.

 

[Norway]

I'm "impressed" by all the sheer variety of NEMA-standard sockets. The nice thing about standards is that there are so many that everybody can have their own! :mrgreen:

However, in most of Europe, where 16A 230V is standard, the charge rate could be fixed by having the EVSE in the car, to avoid the soap on the string. Especially since it would have to be roadsalt and water proof.

 

[tps]

2) Does it give you pause to know that most GFCI circuitry in use today (the primary protection for line to ground electrocution -- see above) has a significant protection failure rate?

This is what the "Test" button on GFCI outlets is for. Obviousley not enough users complete the "required" periodic tests on normal GFCI outlets. The EVSE, OTOH, runs the GFCI test automatically each time it starts the charge cycle, so it should automatically detect failure, prevent charging and give a "fail" indication if the GFCI or grounding conductor fails.

For a while, my Mom lived in a house with a GFCI outlet in one bathroom which was ungrounded. While the GFCI would still detect current imbalance if there was dangerous leakage, the Test button did nothing, since it had no ground to create a "test" leakage path. I think this is the intent of the inspection requirement, to ensure that these types of gross errors which would prevent proper and safe functioning of the EVSE are fixed at the start.

I was involved with the construction phase when they remodeled the current office my company is leasing. The electrical inspector did go around to several of the wall outlets and cubicles with an outlet tester, presumably to check continuity of the grounding conductor. Around here, the inspectors seem at least somewhat serious regarding testing to make sure outlets and devices are properly grounded.

 

[LEAFer]

I guess what that thing does is have a slightly different plugin for each plug, so if you use a 15A plug, the unit knows to signal 15A. But the coding is in the plug to the "soap", and if you had a 15A plug, but with a 10A fuse behind it, the fuse would blow.

Basically correct. The Tesla "soap" does not sense available current. The maximum (assumed breaker) rating is "coded" by the pigtail (each of which they charge $100 for). There are only 4 variations so coded: 15, 20, 30, 50. (That's what the two-digit code after the "-" means in the NEMA name for the plug: NEMA 14-xx or NEMA 6-xx, etc. And look at the 3rd column in the Tesla graphic of receptacles.)

So, this means you, the user, choose the proper pigtail to plug into the provided receptacle. The receptacle on the wall is assumed to be properly installed and wired for its "xx" rating. Then you connect the pigtail with the "soap", and connect the "soap" to the car. The "soap" ( ok ... enough; it's really an EVSE :lol: ) then sends the proper pilot signal to the car at 80% of the "xx" rating (so that would be 12, 16, 24 or 40 amps). (Not sure what happened to a 40A rating/32A pilot for this EVSE.)

(The "coding" in the pigtail may be done with resistors, as previously pointed out, but I'm not sure if that's how they actually do it.)