DC Fast Charging $$$$ Fee Poll

[DANandNAN]

do you realize how many elevators (demand charge) are running every single hour ? why aren't we trying to limit elevator hydrolic pumps

Is that a fair comparison? Do they use a similar amount of DC every time they change floors as a DC charging Leaf? Or is it simply that any DC amount should require a demand charge? It doesn't seem like a good comparison but I know nothing about them.

 

[TonyWilliams]

do you realize how many elevators (demand charge) are running every single hour ? why aren't we trying to limit elevator hydrolic pumps

Is that a fair comparison? Do they use a similar amount of DC every time they change floors as a DC charging Leaf? Or is it simply that any DC amount should require a demand charge? It doesn't seem like a good comparison but I know nothing about them.

Elevators/lifts probably don't have much to do with how much you might pay for a DC fast charge. Anybody else to volunteer how much they would pay for a charge (and comments associated with that)?

 

[EricH]

I would love to see the actual bill to a CA refinery. Total kWh, total due. I bet the cost is not near what we pay as small consumers.
Of course they use the power 24/7/365. Providing all the infrastructure to use the power only 30 minutes twice a day for QC is not that efficient.

I'm pretty sure that every major refinery in California installed gas-fired cogeneration a decade or more ago - the rates California pays for such power, combined with their 24/7 need for process heat, made it a no-brainer. So they all have very low electric bills (basically they pay a standby charge so they can take power during scheduled maintenance of the cogeneration facility).

 

[Reddy]

Tony, sorry to be so slow replying. B1 (25 mpg car) or E. Out of town trips are rare (1-2/yr) for me but I'm contemplating trying the WA/OR I-5 route this summer. In Eastern WA, QC is non-existent, and L2 is extremely rare as you will soon find out. I'm certainly willing to pay a premium just like buying junk food from a vending machine. However, up here in WA we have $0.05-0.10/kWh electricity and probably no TOU or demand charges (most utilities, but I haven't confirmed). So, paying 2x-3x per kWh might be acceptable, more than that and folks might balk. What does that work out to? $10? I'm getting about 4.5 mi/kWh in the summer so $0.45/kWh is $0.10/mi or about $10/charge which seems reasonable. Yes, you will always be competing with the kWh cost at home since that will likely be the lowest cost method.

I think you're seeing that early Leaf drivers and forum members are more frugal, and perhaps more calculating, than you expected. Maybe the general population (and future EV owners) will be less concerned about cost and more concerned with convenience (time). Also, not everyone has a high mileage car (or even another car for that matter) to use as a cost comparator.

Reddy

 

[derkraut]

do you realize how many elevators (demand charge) are running every single hour ? why aren't we trying to limit elevator hydrolic pumps

Is that a fair comparison? Do they use a similar amount of DC every time they change floors as a DC charging Leaf? Or is it simply that any DC amount should require a demand charge? It doesn't seem like a good comparison but I know nothing about them.

Elevators/lifts probably don't have much to do with how much you might pay for a DC fast charge. Anybody else to volunteer how much they would pay for a charge (and comments associated with that)?

Amazing how threads get "derailed", eh Tony?

Anyway....here's my wag on your poll:

Choice #1 = B2
#2 = B1
#3 = C

 

[TomT]

The big Chevron El Segundo refinery down the coast from me generates about 80% of their own power...

I would love to see the actual bill to a CA refinery. Total kWh, total due. I bet the cost is not near what we pay as small consumers.
Of course they use the power 24/7/365. Providing all the infrastructure to use the power only 30 minutes twice a day for QC is not that efficient.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The sales pitch, as delivered to one of the potential buyers, the sit-down casual restaurant owner:

A 20kW Chademo charger would be great for a restaurant owner, you know the driver will go in and buy something during that hour charge time...

Actually, you don't.

I recently spoke to the owner of a restaurant who installed a "Tesla" roadster charger.

He got the Charger installed for "free", in return for the "free" kWh, he provides Tesla Drivers.

Apparently, even $100k+ BEV drivers can be cheapskates, at least occasionally, and will just sit in the car, and not even come in to buy a cup of coffee.

Sad.

 

[walterbays]

It's not just a choice between a) charge a high price and hope someone will use it, and b) give it free and hope people will patronize your store. There are many pricing models that might work. E.g., consider a Macy's or Kohl's store where the QC KW usage was absorbed into the much higher total building demand management, avoiding demand charges.

$7 for up to 20 minutes charge, or free with purchase of $50

$10 for up to 30 minutes charge, or $2 with purchase of $25

$10 for up to 30 minutes charge, after which you get a coupon valid that day only for $10 off purchase of $50 or more, plus a coupon code for up to 3 hours free L2. I.e., after you disconnect from QC, move your car over to L2 to finish your charge slowly and come back into the store and shop

E.g. at an Arco station with 3 QC units each with 4 plugs

$10 for up to 18 KWh delivered on "standby" basis. I.e., you get energy as available within the charger and demand ceiling limits, when not needed by higher priority customers

$5 for up to 18 KWh for "Gold Members" on a priority basis ahead of non-members

$0 for all you want for "Platinum Members" on a priority basis ahead of Gold member and non-members

$20 for up to 18 KWh for a one-day Gold Member Pass, giving you priority access today plus a special discounted offer to continue your Gold Membership for a month or a year

(Not that I *like* the idea of tiered memberships, but if you think that people wouldn't put up with such nonsense for their travels, go watch people board an airplane.)

 

[09Bamb00]

I'm in Florida and many public places here charge 1.50$ per hour. The commercial places sometimes charge as much as 2.49$ per hour. And that's for 240 not Fast Charge

 

[walterbays]

An open letter to EVoasis.com

Since it appears you will be the first to open a DC fast charge station within range of San Diego, I'd like to share with you my thoughts on what it is worth. Some have argued the price must not be more than the comparable cost of gasoline. Others like myself would value QC service in the context of total trip cost. Here's how the value of the service works out for me in one real world example.

I want to go from San Diego to the LA convention center and back on the same day. Right now there is adequate slow L2 charging, mostly free. There is one QC station at Mitsubishi in Cypress, also free, but out of practical range without other recharging. There is one QC station in downtown LA, also free, but of even less value since I can recharge near the convention center where I'll be for several hours, probably for free.

I can drive an ICE car. It would take me about 4 1/2 hours both ways with one or two stops, $33 in gas, $12 parking, total $45.

I can take the train and Metro. It would take me about 6 hours both ways, $61.

I can drive a LEAF with current marginal QC installations. It would take me about 7 1/2 hours both ways including recharging stops and driving via the slow scenic energy efficient routes, $2 in electricity, $12 parking, total $14.

I can (?) drive a LEAF with adequate QC installations including a stop at one of your stations in between LA and San Diego. It would take me about 5 1/4 hours both ways including recharging stops and driving via the faster routes, total cost $14 plus whatever you charge for QC.

So what would be the value of your QC to me?

$31 ($15.50 per charge) because you'd make the EV trip comparable to ICE, slightly slower but a bit more comfortable: $45 - $14.

$47 ($23.50 per charge) because you'd make the EV trip comparable to train, a little faster but a little less relaxing: $61 - $14.

$100 ($50 per charge) because you'd save me 2 hours of my time which I'd value at least at $50.

Clearly if I were making this drive every day I would not be paying $50 a charge; rather I'd be driving a Volt or plug-in Prius. But occasionally that's not unreasonable. At $15 per charge I'd probably find more reasons to drive up to LA more frequently. And at $7 per charge it would cost me about the same mile for mile as gasoline, so I wouldn't mind using QC on a regular basis.

Now if your fee were $50 and across the street from your station was an NRG station whose fee was $7, I'd go there unless there were a long line of cars waiting. But as with most services I would pay extra money for loyalty or for extra service. If your fee were $15 and across the street was a station whose fee was $10 I'd still go to your station if you had shorter lines, better customer service, better waiting amenities, or if I felt loyalty to you for opening the first QC stations when others could not or would not.

 

[Bluebull]

First, let me say that this thread is not for technical "solutions" or political discussions. The only thing I'm interested is how much you would pay for a DC charge.

Assume that chargers are as plentiful as gasoline stations for this poll. That means that I don't want to hear about where they should be located.

The assumption is California, since there are references to issues that may not apply in other parts of the world.

Here are the choices:

A. I will not pay anything for DC fast charging, even if I would need a charge.

B1. I won't pay any more than the cost to operate my Prius or other gasoline car. At 50mpg, and $6 gallon gas, that is 12.5 cents per mile. If I only need 10 miles of additional range, I will only pay $1.25. If a DC charge provides about 60 miles in 30 minutes, I'll pay $7.50. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and provide 80 miles would be worth $10 to me.

B2. I will only pay the cost of electricity without any consideration for demand charges (or any other costs). A 24kWh "fill-up" would be about $2-$3, just like at my house for slower L1 or L2 charging.

C. I will pay $2-$3 per charge event, but only rarely or in an emergency.

D. I will pay $4-$5 per charge event regularly (several times per week)

E. I will pay $4-$5 per charge event, but only rarely or in an emergency.

F. I will pay 33 cents per minute, so that many of my DC charger needs would be well below the $7 minimum fee now offered by 350green and in the future NRG / eVgo (by California state agreement). So, a ten minute charge would be $3.30 and a twenty minute charge is $6.60. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and cost $16.50.

G. I will pay 33 cents per minute. An additional fee of $5 per charge event is added to pay for utility demand charges. Therefore, a ten minute charge would be $8.30 and a twenty minute charge is $11.60. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and cost $21.50.

H. I will pay 50 cents per minute so that a ten minute charge is $5 and a twenty minute charge is $10. A full power 50 minute charge is $25. No additional fees.

I. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $2.50 and a twenty minute charge is $5. The proverbial LBW to 80% that Nissan claims will take 25 minutes will probably take 45 minutes and therefore cost $11.25. A full charge from zero to hero (100%) would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $22.50.

J. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. An additional fee of $5 per charge event is added to pay for utility demand charges. My total costs would be a ten minute charge at $7.50 and a twenty minute charge is $10. LBW to 80% is $17.50, and a full charge from zero to 100% would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $30.00.

K. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for one location for $150 per month.

L. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for multiple locations for $200 per month.

M. I will pay the NRG / eVgo minimum $7 charge, and up to $15 maximum during peak time, for 30 minutes. Presumably, a full charge would require two 30 minute fees, for up to $30.

N. Reserved.

O. Similar to "I", except 33 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $3.30 and a twenty minute charge is $6.60. The proverbial LBW to 80% that Nissan claims will take 25 minutes will probably take 45 minutes and therefore cost $14.85. A full charge from zero to hero (100%) would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $29.70.

Here's a simple spreadsheet of some of the pricing models:

                      F        G        H        I        J      O       M
                  33/min    33+$5    50/min   25/min   25+$5   33/min  $7-$15
                    48kW     48kW     48kW     20kW     20kW    20kW    48kW

10 min charge      $3.30    $8.30   $5.00     $2.50     $7.50   $3.30  $7-$15
20 min charge      $6.60   $11.60  $10.00     $5.00    $10.00   $6.60  $7-$15
LBW to 80%         $7.85   $12.85  $12.50    $12.50    $17.50  $14.85  $7-&15
Turtle to 100%     $16.50  $21.50  $25.00    $25.00    $30.00  $29.70 $14-$30

These pricing models would torpedo the EV market. It is pure madness and is absolute greed at its most ridiculous level.. An LBW to 80% no more than 6.00.

 

[Bluebull]

I'm in Florida and many public places here charge 1.50$ per hour. The commercial places sometimes charge as much as 2.49$ per hour. And that's for 240 not Fast Charge

That would be unacceptable to me. Last time I looked in a mirror I didn't see the word "sucker" on my forehead.

 

[Bluebull]

Unless Walgreen's install was part of the government program they certainly paid somebody to install and will pay somebody to maintain the units.
Up front fee or a lease but payment was surely made.

Plenty of companies do not front the cash on this stuff and prefer to lease and farm out the maintenance. They don't want the risk. They would prefer to cancel if it does not work out. Business does not want to be stuck with obsolete equipment either.

If you can be the low cost supplier by managing demand costs or install costs that becomes your business model.
Starts to make sense if you don't pay for the electric, just collect the fee to clean and maintain.

eVgo network in Texas charges a monthly subscription ($20.00 - $90.00)unlimited use, and does all the construction and maintenance. As far as I know the Walgreens and cracker Barrels don't pay much except put up the property, but I may be wrong on that. I plan to ask evGo reps in the Fort Worth-Dallas area.

 

[Bluebull]

Guys, we're venturing into the area of "solving the problem", when if you recall at the beginning, the DC chargers were as plentiful as gas stations. Believe it or not, I have spent a few minutes of my life researching plenty of other options.

In general, anything that adds to the up front capital is only a detriment to a super low revenue model. Batteries are probably the most expensive solution, but perhaps solar could beat it out!!! The propane models are interesting with a Capstone, but the cost there is ENORMOUS.

None of which matters, again, if the end user will only use it infrequently, or in emergencies, or just drive the Prius.

There's a very sound business reason why NRG / eVgo only sells memberships.

I purposely make my evgo subscription (40.00/Mo) work for me. I use the QC 4-5 times a week or 16-20 times per month. This gives me a 2.00 / charge.

 

[Bluebull]

Acceptable: FGHIJM
Unacceptable: That no QC exists within range at any price

Suppose we set out on the freeway in either a Leaf, a 50 MPG Prius, or an average 21 MPG mid-size car. Gas is $4.30/gallon. Home electricity is $0.10/KWh. Leaf has a usable battery capacity of 21 KWh, of which we're willing to use 19 KWh. At the destination we'll stay long enough to recharge fully at L2 for the return. We'll drive at 65 MPH, getting 3.6 mi/KWh in the Leaf. (I've seen better than this, but let's conservatively use the numbers in Tony's range chart.) En route recharging will be from 30% to 80% charge, taking 15 minutes at an NRG station at a cost of $7, or taking 30 minutes at Tony's Option J reduced power station at a cost of $12.50.

If we drive only 68 miles then we arrive with 2 KWh remaining and need no quick charge. With a single quick charge we add 10.5 KWh of energy, or 38 miles of range. So with one quick charge we can go 106 miles. With 4 quick charges we can go 220 miles.

Which car we'd take on the trip and which we'd leave in the garage depends on how far we're going, how much the quick charge costs, and how quick is the quick charge. Rounding one-way trip cost to nearest dollar and to nearest quarter hour, trips are summarized in the table below. The first column shows the trip distance. The second column shows the cost in money and time to make the trip in a Prius. The third column (AMS) is an average mid-size ICE car. The fourth is a Leaf, recharging as needed at NRG quick charge stations. The fifth is a Leaf, recharging as needed at Tony's Option J stations.

Miles  Prius     AMS      NRG       TJ
 68      $5      $13       $2       $2
        1hr      1hr      1hr      1hr

106     $10      $23       $9      $14
       1.75hr   1.75hr    2hr     2.25hr

220     $23      $54      $30      $42
       3.5hr    3.5hr    4.5hr    5.5hr

68 mi - 0 QC's

Drive the Leaf
no-brainer

106 mi - 1 QC at NRG

Drive the Leaf, leave the Prius at home
cheaper, with one short refreshment break

106 mi - 1 half-quick charge at Tony's option J

Drive the Leaf, leave the ICE at home
cheaper, with one medium refreshment break

Drive the Leaf, leave the Prius at home
Costs $4 more and you've got to take one medium break
but you get to drive the Leaf!

220 mi - 4 QC at NRG

Maybe drive the Leaf, leave the ICE at home
Leaf is $12 less expensive, but 1 hr longer trip

Drive the Prius, leave the Leaf at home
Leaf is $7 more expensive and takes 1 hour longer

220 mi - 4 half-quick charge at Tony's option J

Drive the ICE, leave the Leaf at home
ICE is $12 more expensive but saves 2 hours

Good analysis. Thanks for the rundown.

 

[Bluebull]

First, let me say that this thread is not for technical "solutions" or political discussions. The only thing I'm interested is how much you would pay for a DC charge.

Assume that chargers are as plentiful as gasoline stations for this poll. That means that I don't want to hear about where they should be located.

The assumption is California, since there are references to issues that may not apply in other parts of the world.

Here are the choices:

A. I will not pay anything for DC fast charging, even if I would need a charge.

B1. I won't pay any more than the cost to operate my Prius or other gasoline car. At 50mpg, and $6 gallon gas, that is 12.5 cents per mile. If I only need 10 miles of additional range, I will only pay $1.25. If a DC charge provides about 60 miles in 30 minutes, I'll pay $7.50. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and provide 80 miles would be worth $10 to me.

B2. I will only pay the cost of electricity without any consideration for demand charges (or any other costs). A 24kWh "fill-up" would be about $2-$3, just like at my house for slower L1 or L2 charging.

C. I will pay $2-$3 per charge event, but only rarely or in an emergency.

D. I will pay $4-$5 per charge event regularly (several times per week)

E. I will pay $4-$5 per charge event, but only rarely or in an emergency.

F. I will pay 33 cents per minute, so that many of my DC charger needs would be well below the $7 minimum fee now offered by 350green and in the future NRG / eVgo (by California state agreement). So, a ten minute charge would be $3.30 and a twenty minute charge is $6.60. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and cost $16.50.

G. I will pay 33 cents per minute. An additional fee of $5 per charge event is added to pay for utility demand charges. Therefore, a ten minute charge would be $8.30 and a twenty minute charge is $11.60. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 50 minutes (48kW max a LEAF can accept) and cost $21.50.

H. I will pay 50 cents per minute so that a ten minute charge is $5 and a twenty minute charge is $10. A full power 50 minute charge is $25. No additional fees.

I. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $2.50 and a twenty minute charge is $5. The proverbial LBW to 80% that Nissan claims will take 25 minutes will probably take 45 minutes and therefore cost $11.25. A full charge from zero to hero (100%) would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $22.50.

J. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. An additional fee of $5 per charge event is added to pay for utility demand charges. My total costs would be a ten minute charge at $7.50 and a twenty minute charge is $10. LBW to 80% is $17.50, and a full charge from zero to 100% would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $30.00.

K. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for one location for $150 per month.

L. Unlimited, non-commercial use for one registered car for multiple locations for $200 per month.

M. I will pay the NRG / eVgo minimum $7 charge, and up to $15 maximum during peak time, for 30 minutes. Presumably, a full charge would require two 30 minute fees, for up to $30.

N. Reserved.

O. Similar to "I", except 33 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $3.30 and a twenty minute charge is $6.60. The proverbial LBW to 80% that Nissan claims will take 25 minutes will probably take 45 minutes and therefore cost $14.85. A full charge from zero to hero (100%) would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $29.70.

Here's a simple spreadsheet of some of the pricing models:

                      F        G        H        I        J      O       M
                  33/min    33+$5    50/min   25/min   25+$5   33/min  $7-$15
                    48kW     48kW     48kW     20kW     20kW    20kW    48kW 

10 min charge      $3.30    $8.30   $5.00     $2.50     $7.50   $3.30  $7-$15
20 min charge      $6.60   $11.60  $10.00     $5.00    $10.00   $6.60  $7-$15
LBW to 80%         $7.85   $12.85  $12.50    $12.50    $17.50  $14.85  $7-&15
Turtle to 100%     $16.50  $21.50  $25.00    $25.00    $30.00  $29.70 $14-$30

Although I am a monthly subscriber of eVgo (40.00 / Mo). I use the QC 4-5 times per week(16-20 per month)(2.00 per 30 minute QC), I could live with B2,C,D,F,H.

 

[hill]

Although I am a monthly subscriber of eVgo (40.00 / Mo). I use the QC 4-5 times per week(16-20 per month)(2.00 per 30 minute QC), I could live with B2,C,D,F,H.

Our local QC in San Juan Capistrano charges $15 MINIMUM (no half hour choice) per charge. That presumes anyone will ever feel ok about paying that much. I have yet to see anyone stop there, once that rate was set. But you never know. Someone might, I suppose. I'd go for $10/half hour ... but NO way would I do $15.

.

 

[vsiev]

Although I am a monthly subscriber of eVgo (40.00 / Mo). I use the QC 4-5 times per week(16-20 per month)(2.00 per 30 minute QC), I could live with B2,C,D,F,H.

Our local QC in San Juan Capistrano charges $15 MINIMUM (no half hour choice) per charge. That presumes anyone will ever feel ok about paying that much. I have yet to see anyone stop there, once that rate was set. But you never know. Someone might, I suppose. I'd go for $10/half hour ... but NO way would I do $15.

.

I believe that QC prorates the time of charge (e.g. 30 minutes = $7.50) and the rates vary between $10/hour or $15/hour depending on the time of day. (*I have no personal experience charging there but the info comes from the comments on Plugshare)

 

[TonyWilliams]

Although I am a monthly subscriber of eVgo (40.00 / Mo). I use the QC 4-5 times per week(16-20 per month)(2.00 per 30 minute QC), I could live with B2,C,D,F,H.

Our local QC in San Juan Capistrano charges $15 MINIMUM (no half hour choice) per charge. That presumes anyone will ever feel ok about paying that much. I have yet to see anyone stop there, once that rate was set. But you never know. Someone might, I suppose. I'd go for $10/half hour ... but NO way would I do $15.

.

GARY, PLEASE STOP THE NUMEROUS POSTS ABOUT HOW "BAD" THIS CHARGER IS !!! I know that you know the info you are providing is wrong, and you seem to be intent on somehow damaging this business with inaccurate information. I'm confident you understand the ramifications of that. The pricing information is on Plugshare, and numerous other similar sites, as well as ChargePoint who handles the billing for this charger.

Gary is wrong about the pricing model which currently is:

$10 per hour off peak, pro rated per MINUTE.
$15 per hour peak, pro rated per MINUTE.

No $7 minimum charge, like NRG must charge. NRG cannot exceed $10 off peak per hour, or $15 peak. They wil likely offer a subscription model.

Most of the over 500 charge events average about 15 minutes, and are charged accordingly.

 

[KillaWhat]

We just gotten our First DCQC.
It's a "Vegas" Blink. (If you've seen one, you know what I mean)

I would pay "C" $3.00 and be pretty happy, even though that's twice what the actual electric costs here.
If I were in trouble, and NEEDED a charge to get home, and a Free level 2 was sitting next to a $6 Level III, I confess I'd pay the $6.

It's free at the moment.... and broken after 2 days, but what are you going to do?