Challenging the opinion

[Marktm]

What's your opinion about consolidating charging connector technology - that in this article clearly links overall EV decisions so emphatically with the charge connector itself?;
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-only-ev-worth-buying-right-now-charging-nacs-ccs-2023-7

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think that it would have been nothing but good, had it happened more slowly. As it is, it's a safe bet that the haste involved will cause at least some problems.

 

[Toby]

I may be wrong but for the short term the better choice is probably CCS because it can swing both ways; one can get an adapter to use NACS.

 

[GerryAZ]

Business Insider (specifically writer Alexa St. John) publishes misleading articles that discourage EV purchasing. There was a very misleading article about charging costs a couple weeks ago and now this one. The author requested feedback or comments via email regarding charging costs. I emailed more realistic charging costs and offered to explain, but no reply from the author yet.

Regarding charging connectors: The NACS announcements are just advertising to benefit Tesla and the manufacturers committing to it. The advertising implies that the new non-Tesla vehicles will have access to the entire Tesla supercharger network, but that is not true. Also, existing CCS charging stations will be around for a long time. If I were looking for a new EV now, I would consider all manufacturers/models. Unfortunately, I don't like the trend toward center-mounted touch screens for speedometer and vehicle/HVAC controls and will not buy a car with that "feature" from any manufacturer.

 

[ebeighe]

Business Insider (specifically writer Alexa St. John) publishes misleading articles that discourage EV purchasing. There was a very misleading article about charging costs a couple weeks ago and now this one.

yeah, that article was nutz. She was parroting what was said here
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/
Spoiler alert, charging your EV (at home) is more (much more!) expensive than gasoline to fuel an ICE -- according to the report, that is!
One of the strangest things, and i tried reading the details but gave up, was they "amortized" the cost of an EVSE (presumably including installation costs) -- this would amount to hundreds of dollars a year, according to their calculations; and that's forever.

Shilling for the oil industry?

 

[GRA]

Business Insider (specifically writer Alexa St. John) publishes misleading articles that discourage EV purchasing. There was a very misleading article about charging costs a couple weeks ago and now this one.

yeah, that article was nutz. She was parroting what was said here
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/many-gas-powered-cars-cheaper-to-fuel-than-electric-in-2023/
Spoiler alert, charging your EV (at home) is more (much more!) expensive than gasoline to fuel an ICE -- according to the report, that is!
One of the strangest things, and i tried reading the details but gave up, was they "amortized" the cost of an EVSE (presumably including installation costs) -- this would amount to hundreds of dollars a year, according to their calculations; and that's forever.

Shilling for the oil industry?

Maybe I've read more of it (the 2nd edition) than you have, but I find their numbers plausible. Indeed, for 2021 and into early 2022 they said that higher gas prices made BEVs generally cheaper (at that time there were no entry-level BEVs or pickups so they couldn't compare those), but as gas prices dropped that changed. Note that they were using gas and electricity prices for the midwest and/or Michigan specifically, so different regions with different taxes, fees and gas/electricity prices would vary considerably.

I also liked that they did calcs for those charging 100% at home, 90% at home, and mostly all commercial, i.e those who can't charge at home and have to pay higher prices as a result. Also, they point out that while people who can charge at home say that they do most of their charging there, what they usually mean is that they do most of their charging sessions there. The report uses US data that shows that most annual miles are on longer trips which generally means using DCFCs or commercial L2s, and thus a much higher percentage of annual energy for charging is actually commercial.

Also, they amortized the cost of home EVSEs over 5 years, not 'forever'. EVSEs typically have warranties of 2-3 years, with the longest I've seen being 5, so this seems a reasonable cutoff. They also point out that in home use some EVSEs are included with cars, others have EVSEs and/or installation bundled with them while others are purchased separately. Some are being plugged in to existing L1 receptacles, others require electrical work for L2 which may or may not include panel upgrades, etc., which makes calculating costs difficult given such wide variation in circumstances.

 

[Stanton]

I just looked at BOTH of the articles/links provided in this thread, and my only reaction is disbelief! I understand what marketing is, but how can this sort of stuff get taken as "fact" by (respectable?) reporters/journalists?
I remember doing ICE vs EV comparisons with my own vehicles years ago, and I can unequivocally say that the cost to "fuel" my ICE was many more times that of what it cost to charge my Leaf. And I've become tired of the "charging wars" discussions, because I maintain that the (majority of the) target audience for EVs charges their car at home (attached garage, etc.), so it doesn't matter what kind of charging connector they use as they can buy it 1 time and use it forever (I'm still using the same converted-dual-voltage Panasonic EVSE that came with my Leaf)!
I'm just waiting for the day when my EV can double as the "battery backup" for my house (and we're getting close).

 

[MikeinPA]

The 8/1/23 article linked above is titled Mid-priced ICE cars cost $11 to drive 100 miles; comparable EVs cost $12 to $16 depending on charging modality and goes on to claim that a Leaf costs $10 to $14 per 100 miles for just the energy costs. Well, I get over 5 miles per kwh (tires at 44 psi, country roads) and the average Leaf is getting around 4 miles/kwh. Say 25 kwh to go 100 miles, and the average cost of US electricity is 23 cents, so that is $5.75 to go 100 miles, not the $10 to $14 the article claims. No need to read any deeper into the article.

 

[knightmb]

I just looked at BOTH of the articles/links provided in this thread, and my only reaction is disbelief! I understand what marketing is, but how can this sort of stuff get taken as "fact" by (respectable?) reporters/journalists?

I just read the same report and used a spreadsheet to do some quick math. The ICE vehicles they were comparing to were getting +40 MPG or more for the entire year (which is nearly impossible except under ideal conditions) and then the lowest price EV they used was spending $0.11 per mile for charging or $1,295.21 for the whole year as an electric bill. If we used the Leaf as an example, heck, let's use the Gen 1 Leaf with the 24 kWh battery pack. Say it was a perfect 20 kWh of usable capacity Leaf. The Leaf would be charging at home with an electric utility rate of $0.54 per kilowatt-hour if the Leaf was driving 5 m/kWh (why not be ideal like they did on ICE driving efficiency?) If the Leaf was averaging 4 m/kWh, then the utility rate would be charging $0.43 per kilowatt-hour. The utility rates are so high as to be completely wrong. The state of Hawaii has the highest average electric utility rates of $0.30 per kilowatt-hour in 2021. This is the same data they "claim" to have to used in the report from the US Energy Information Administration site here: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/
I didn't see anything in the report to hint that they were comparing EVs and ICE in Hawaii to generate this report? :lol:
This is just one thing I found wrong in the report right away when I saw the numbers. I don't have time to debunk the entire report but I suspect this one is simply cherry picking some data to "use" in the report and then manipulate to fit a narrative conclusion that I would not believe to ever be accurate.

 

[GRA]

The 8/1/23 article linked above is titled Mid-priced ICE cars cost $11 to drive 100 miles; comparable EVs cost $12 to $16 depending on charging modality and goes on to claim that a Leaf costs $10 to $14 per 100 miles for just the energy costs. Well, I get over 5 miles per kwh (tires at 44 psi, country roads) and the average Leaf is getting around 4 miles/kwh. Say 25 kwh to go 100 miles, and the average cost of US electricity is 23 cents, so that is $5.75 to go 100 miles, not the $10 to $14 the article claims. No need to read any deeper into the article.

Again, the article notes that even with cars that are mostly charged at home, a high percentage of the total miles/charging energy is commercial owing to trips, usually DCFC, which is far more expensive than home charging. Oh, and the electricity cost is calculated from the wall, not what the car's reporting from the battery, because you're paying for electricity from the meter.

Also, the advantage/disadvantage has varied depending on the relative prices of gas/electricity. The 2nd report, which dated from 2022, had mid and luxury BEVs (no entry-level or pickups at the time, unlike for the most recent report) being less expensive because gas prices are more volatile and were relatively high at the time. The most recent report was published earlier this year after gas prices had declined considerably from 2021/early 2022, and before the subsequent spike in gas prices to high levels again which would undoubtedly alter the results.

Plus, as noted before, the prices are region-specific; someone living in the Pacific NW with electricity from low-cost hydro and higher-priced gas will obviously do better than locations where the reverse is true. In California we have both high-priced gas and electricity, and it really depends on where you live in the state. Here in my part of PG&E land, the cheapest home electricity rate (unless you install a separate meter) is EV2-A, a ToU plan for people who own PEVs. Off-peak rates are 7 days/week, but only from midnight to 3 p.m., and is $0.27/kWh. Peak (4-9 p.m.) and Partial Peak (3-4 p.m. & 9 p.m.-12a.m.) is $0.58/$0.47/kWh summer (Jun-Sep) and $0.46/$0.44/kWh (Oct-May). There are other ToU rates for people who charge less, or who can shift more of their usage off the evening peak, but with higher rates than the above.

 

[WetEV]

Maybe I've read more of it (the 2nd edition) than you have, but I find their numbers plausible.

A biased calculation can be "plausible", but that doesn't make it a fair comparison.

Was this a fair comparison, or a plausible calculation?

Also, they amortized the cost of home EVSEs over 5 years, not 'forever'. EVSEs typically have warranties of 2-3 years, with the longest I've seen being 5, so this seems a reasonable cutoff. They also point out that in home use some EVSEs are included with cars, others have EVSEs and/or installation bundled with them while others are purchased separately. Some are being plugged in to existing L1 receptacles, others require electrical work for L2 which may or may not include panel upgrades, etc., which makes calculating costs difficult given such wide variation in circumstances.

So did they provide costs for all or at least some of these options? It seems very plausible to me that you might spend more than gas on an EVSE plus electrical work plus electric cost for the most expensive EVSE option, the most expensive electrical grid, and the shortest daily driving. Oh, and add the punitive taxes on EVs in some states. Oh, and not deduct any subsidies and/or rebates.

Oh, and most charging is at home, and most public charging by energy delivered is at the workplace. Workplace charging is often cheaper than other public charging, and can be cheaper than home charging. Did Anderson Consulting consider workplace charging? Other than to dismiss it? Charging behaviors are not simple, see:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261921016214


Assuming L1 with an included EVSE (cost $0 plus electric) isn't fair as well. Only about a quarter of EVs are L1 charged. So what number did they report? And how did they calculate it? And is it fair?

I've read the study, I know. Not even close to fair.

https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/EV_ICE_FuelingCosts_2ed4-5-22.pdf


Pick the max from column A, and the minimum from column B. Get the answer you want. Sad.

A fair comparison is hard. I grant that. Rather than getting a single number, a range would be more meaningful. Or perhaps multiple use cases. Or a graph showing the best estimate of the distribution.

Oh, and deadhead miles to charging. Bogus. BOGUS. Bogus.

For EVs, we assume 6 miles per trip for a
commercial L2 charger, and 10 miles per trip to a commercial fast DC charger.

I don't go much out of my way ever to get to an commercial L2. I use L2 charging at hotels, restaurants, workplace, etc. No deadhead miles at all. None. Never. Ok, EV parking might be a few steps farther away from the hotel door. Does anyone drive 6 miles to get to a commercial L2? This is just ludicrous. Beyond any realistic belief. What are you going to do while the car charges? Not even plausible.

I DC fast charge on longer trips. 10 miles out of my way? Once or twice, sure. Rarely, usually far less. To be fair, on the average might be half of this. Longer trips can lead to routes I can't take because of lack of charging. Like home to Grand Canyon, the shortest drive doesn't have charging available.

Compare
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=ef6db075-9e15-4dbd-b03a-9bb26462fd08

https://goo.gl/maps/AYDZYzHSsynNR3pe8

13 charges, 198 more miles. 13 deadhead miles per charge. This example isn't typical, most of my L3 charges are a mile or so off the path, and the path is mostly the same as I'd drive with an ICE. So 5 miles extra might be realistic. 10 miles per charge is plausible, but not realistic or fair. But not as ludicrous as driving 6 miles to an L2.

 

[GRA]

Maybe I've read more of it (the 2nd edition) than you have, but I find their numbers plausible.

A biased calculation can be "plausible", but that doesn't make it a fair comparison.

Was this a fair comparison, or a plausible calculation?

Also, they amortized the cost of home EVSEs over 5 years, not 'forever'. EVSEs typically have warranties of 2-3 years, with the longest I've seen being 5, so this seems a reasonable cutoff. They also point out that in home use some EVSEs are included with cars, others have EVSEs and/or installation bundled with them while others are purchased separately. Some are being plugged in to existing L1 receptacles, others require electrical work for L2 which may or may not include panel upgrades, etc., which makes calculating costs difficult given such wide variation in circumstances.

So did they provide costs for all or at least some of these options? It seems very plausible to me that you might spend more than gas on an EVSE plus electrical work plus electric cost for the most expensive EVSE option, the most expensive electrical grid, and the shortest daily driving. Oh, and add the punitive taxes on EVs in some states. Oh, and not deduct any subsidies and/or rebates.

EV and fuel taxes were included. Subsidies and rebates for EVSES/installation vary by income as well as location, making any such calc outside of a restricted area and without knowledge of income impossible.

Oh, and most charging is at home, and most public charging by energy delivered is at the workplace. Workplace charging is often cheaper than other public charging, and can be cheaper than home charging. Did Anderson Consulting consider workplace charging? Other than to dismiss it? Charging behaviors are not simple, see:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261921016214

Of course they're not simple, which is why they included several different categories, including 100% home charging, 90% home charging, and all-commercial charging. Most charging has been at home because only the people who own homes or else have convenient , reliable workplace (or recreational)/local) L2 charging are going to buy BEVs; widespread workplace or MUD charging doesn't exist at the moment. We need far more workplace charging and less charging at night (at least until we here in California get a lot more off-shore wind; the best onshore sites in the state have been built out for some time), because that allows us to take full advantage of solar instead of having to curtail it during the day owing to the need to keep NG plants operating at high levels, because they can't be ramped up and down very fast.

Assuming L1 with an included EVSE (cost $0 plus electric) isn't fair as well. Only about a quarter of EVs are L1 charged. So what number did they report? And how did they calculate it? And is it fair?

Depends on the use case, obviously. PHEVs are more likely to be charged L1, and BEVs by people who drive less per day (often retirees). I've got two friends who've either had or now have PHEVs, and both charged them L1-only because their limited AER covered most if not all their routine needs, and anything over that the ICE was there to handle. We've had quite a few people here on MNL owning BEVs who've managed with L1-only for years at home. OTOH, if you need to range further than say 20-30 miles/day on a fairly regular basis (assuming an 8 hour off-peak window), L1-only at home with no other convenient charging options imposes serious limitations, as a couple of my other friends who just bought a Bolt and are spending the month on the east side of the Sierra are learning. The lack of convenient public L2 let alone DCFCs in the area makes the car usable for them only every 2-3 days, and that's charging it L1 at their rental without the rental agent's permission (they're waiting to ask his son/co-worker instead, who's trying to get some public chargers installed in town but is currently out of state).

I've read the study, I know. Not even close to fair.

https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/EV_ICE_FuelingCosts_2ed4-5-22.pdf


Pick the max from column A, and the minimum from column B. Get the answer you want. Sad.

A fair comparison is hard. I grant that. Rather than getting a single number, a range would be more meaningful. Or perhaps multiple use cases. Or a graph showing the best estimate of the distribution.

Oh, and deadhead miles to charging. Bogus. BOGUS. Bogus.

How is it bogus? They've included miles to gas stations on that side of the equation, and as they noted, the range of BEVs is less than the range of ICEs so anyone who has to rely on public charging will have to drive more often to recharge, AOTBE (and ignoring that you probably will limit the usable SoC range, reducing the practical range even more). Renting BEVs for trips, I usually drive 2.2 or 2.5 miles each way to one of the nearest DCFCs (both EA) to charge before and after a trip, despite living in the California CMSA with the highest PEV new car sales rate in the state (IIRR just over 40% in Q2). As there's basically nothing to do at either site it's dead time, and I've had to wait or else had broken chargers that forced me to go to the other site at both of them (they're in opposite directions from home), adding that many more deadhead miles. OTOH, the nearest gas station is 1.5 blocks from home, although I don't go there because there's a station a block further away that's considerably cheaper - the closest station just bumped their price for regular to $5.10/gal a couple of days ago. They're up about $0.60/gal. in the past month, and up from a low of $4.30/gal. this year. Their prices are middling for the city.

L1 charging is my only option at home and that would require both an extension cord and permission from my landlord, plus there's no way I'd charge at 12 amps on property I don't own with wiring of who knows what quality, so that'd limit my daily range even more. My friends are charging the Bolt using its portable EVSE at the default 8A for L1 rather than 12A for the same reason. Once they get home their new L2 circuit/EVSE should have been installed, and that will make the car entirely practical for local use, but trips still require commercial charging.

L2 charging is walking distance (<=10 min.) for me, but is also more expensive (Blink, $0.49/kWh for members, $$0.59/kWh guests) and/or with more limited access (EV Connect $0.42/kWh, at a high school behind gates that are locked outside of school hours bar field athletic competitions and the like), and of course the time suck is even greater than DCFCs (but the study doesn't quantify what people's time is worth); realistically you have to be able to leave the car unattended at an L2 for many hours if not overnight, with the attendant security concerns.

For EVs, we assume 6 miles per trip for a
commercial L2 charger, and 10 miles per trip to a commercial fast DC charger.

I don't go much out of my way ever to get to an commercial L2. I use L2 charging at hotels, restaurants, workplace, etc. No deadhead miles at all. None. Never. Ok, EV parking might be a few steps farther away from the hotel door. Does anyone drive 6 miles to get to a commercial L2? This is just ludicrous. Beyond any realistic belief. What are you going to do while the car charges? Not even plausible.

I DC fast charge on longer trips. 10 miles out of my way? Once or twice, sure. Rarely, usually far less. To be fair, on the average might be half of this. Longer trips can lead to routes I can't take because of lack of charging. Like home to Grand Canyon, the shortest drive doesn't have charging available.

Compare
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=ef6db075-9e15-4dbd-b03a-9bb26462fd08

https://goo.gl/maps/AYDZYzHSsynNR3pe8

13 charges, 198 more miles. 13 deadhead miles per charge. This example isn't typical, most of my L3 charges are a mile or so off the path, and the path is mostly the same as I'd drive with an ICE. So 5 miles extra might be realistic. 10 miles per charge is plausible, but not realistic or fair. But not as ludicrous as driving 6 miles to an L2.

I've driven 12 miles or more one way to an L2 on the route through Yosemite to the east side of the Sierra, and my friends have been driving 13 or 15 miles one way on this trip, because that's all the L2s that are available for now in the area. The nearest DCFCs are 38 miles away from them in one direction, 55 in another, and 81 in a third, all involving climbs, all well beyond where most of their day trips are, but most of those day trips are also beyond the round-trip range of an overnight L1 charge. Just depends on where you want/need to drive. They've had to resort to taking both the CR-V hybrid and the Bolt with them on a few occasions, leaving the Bolt to charge at an L2 for several hours while they continue with the CR-V to where they plan to hike, then picking the Bolt up on the return so they can use it on the next trip.

 

[GerryAZ]

I just quickly read through the "updated" Anderson Economic Group report. No matter how you look at it, the cost numbers for fuel were chosen to make ICE vehicles look better and EV's look worse. $2.00 per gallon of gasoline vs. $0.16 per kWh for residential electricity is not realistic--it has been a long time since gasoline was only $2.00 per gallon and $0.16 per kWh is toward the higher end of residential electricity rates in the USA. For comparison, I paid $3.959 per gallon of regular (87 octane) unleaded gasoline for my motorcycle yesterday and my off-peak residential power rate is less than $0.10 per kWh with all taxes and fees included. At 50 miles per gallon for the motorcycle and 3 miles per kWh (wall to wheels) for the LEAF, the cost per 100 miles is $7.92 for the motorcycle vs. $3.33 for the LEAF.

 

[cwerdna]

I just quickly read through the "updated" Anderson Economic Group report. No matter how you look at it, the cost numbers for fuel were chosen to make ICE vehicles look better and EV's look worse. $2.00 per gallon of gasoline vs. $0.16 per kWh for residential electricity is not realistic--it has been a long time since gasoline was only $2.00 per gallon and $0.16 per kWh is toward the higher end of residential electricity rates in the USA.

In Pacific Gouge & Extort land, we can only dream of 16 cents per kWh.

The default residential non-TOU plan is E-1: https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf.
Tier 1 (baseline) is 35.3 cent per kWh. Tier 2 (each kWh above baseline) is 44 cents per kWh. I'm in area X, code B (see page 3). So, for a 30 day billing month, baseline is either 294 or 291 kWh per month.

The EV plan for those w/o separate meter for their EVSE is EV2-A: https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_EV2%20(Sch).pdf. Per page 2, off-peak is 27.2 cents per kWh. Rest of day is 44 to 58.4 cents per kWh but there are no tiers.

So, the best you can do for marginal price per kWh to charge an EV w/o solar is 27.2 cents per kWh.

I don't charge my EV at home, so I'm on E-TOU-C. See page 2 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU-C.pdf. Each kWh above baseline is 40 to 53 cents per kWh. Baselines are defined the same as E-1. See page 4. For each kWh above baseline, you don't receive the 8.7 cent per kWh credit. That's how they do tiering. So, the marginal cost to fuel an EV at home on that plan off-peak would be 40 to 45 cents per kWh since for sure, I'd be pushed into tier 2 by doing so. I most months am under baseline or slightly over (maybe 1 to 10 kWh over).

For my most recent statement that covered 7/13/23 to 8/10/23, the total of my electric portion was $115.91 for 286.608 kWh. Most of my usage was off peak. My baseline allowance was only 284.2 kWh for the biliing period, so I went 2.408 kWh over. I did opt-in to a program where I supposedly receive 100% renewable sourced electricity. That costs me 1 extra cent per kWh.

Fortunately, I get free EV juice at work. There are a few free but often busy/all in use L2s near home. There are L2s and 2 DC FCs that are near home which are only 19 cents per kWh. ChargePoint HQ (when I last checked) had DC FCs for 25 cents/kWh.

I've also griped about my unreliable power in numerous places including https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/california-electrical-infrastructure-generation-transmission-storage-peak-demand-psps-flex-alerts-emergencies-etc.51146/?post_id=888846&nested_view=1#post-888846.

 

[MikeinPA]

The chart in this DOE EV publication says it all. https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicle...ric-vehicles-have-lowest-annual-fuel-cost-all Anderson Group numbers are not credible, not even close. Wonder why?

 

[GerryAZ]

Using cwerdna's Tier 2 rate of $0.44 per kWh yields a fuel cost of $14.67 for 100 miles at 3 miles per kWh for my LEAF. That is equivalent to 27.0 miles per gallon using the price I paid for gasoline and is probably about what a gas engine car of similar size would average under my use pattern (heavy A/C use, idling as portable office, stop/go traffic, and open freeway). Gasoline prices in CA are usually higher than in AZ, but I have not compared averages lately.

I should also note that charging at home on-peak would add about $120 to my one-hour peak demand charge for the month (6.7 kW X $18.00/kW = $120.60), regardless of how many times I charged. Therefore, I never charge on peak at home and have charge timers set in the LEAF to allow charging only during off-peak hours. If needed, I can also charge at my workshop/garage which costs about $0.25 per kWh on the small use commercial rate plan. That plan has a 15-minute demand charge above 20 kW, but I never reach that level.

Back to the Anderson report: Perhaps their $2.00 per gallon gasoline and $0.16 per kWh are comparable if the $0.16 per kWh is considered as maximum instead of average. Scaling the $2.00 rate to present cost in CA and multiplying the $0.16 rate by that factor would yield numbers similar to those listed by cwerdna. Using their numbers as average is not credible (as can be seen in the link MikeinPA provided).

 

[WetEV]

So did they provide costs for all or at least some of these options? It seems very plausible to me that you might spend more than gas on an EVSE plus electrical work plus electric cost for the most expensive EVSE option, the most expensive electrical grid, and the shortest daily driving. Oh, and add the punitive taxes on EVs in some states. Oh, and not deduct any subsidies and/or rebates.

EV and fuel taxes were included. Subsidies and rebates for EVSES/installation vary by income as well as location, making any such calc outside of a restricted area and without knowledge of income impossible.

Exactly. Use the highest case taxes and the lowest case rebates. Oh yea, balanced view. Right.

Oh, and most charging is at home, and most public charging by energy delivered is at the workplace. Workplace charging is often cheaper than other public charging, and can be cheaper than home charging. Did Anderson Consulting consider workplace charging? Other than to dismiss it? Charging behaviors are not simple, see:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261921016214

Of course they're not simple, which is why they included several different categories, including 100% home charging, 90% home charging, and all-commercial charging.

Not a single category with some or all workplace charging, the most energy delivered form of public charging. Oh yea, balanced view.

Oh, and deadhead miles to charging. Bogus. BOGUS. Bogus.

How is it bogus?

I've already explained. Sure, there is extra miles driven at times as public DCFC locations are not as convenient and numerous as gas pumps. But the numbers chosen are bogus, especially the L2.

Do you really think the average deadhead miles to L2 charging is 6 miles? When most energy delivered is workplace charging?

realistically you have to be able to leave the car unattended at an L2 for many hours if not overnight, with the attendant security concerns.

Which you almost always do at a hotel, correct? Likewise a restaurant, correct? Likewise at work, correct? And these don't involve an extra 6 miles of driving, correct?

For EVs, we assume 6 miles per trip for a
commercial L2 charger, and 10 miles per trip to a commercial fast DC charger.

I don't go much out of my way ever to get to an commercial L2. I use L2 charging at hotels, restaurants, workplace, etc. No deadhead miles at all. None. Never. Ok, EV parking might be a few steps farther away from the hotel door. Does anyone drive 6 miles to get to a commercial L2? This is just ludicrous. Beyond any realistic belief. What are you going to do while the car charges? Not even plausible.

I've driven 12 miles or more one way to an L2 on the route through Yosemite to the east side of the Sierra, and my friends have been driving 13 or 15 miles one way on this trip, because that's all the L2s that are available for now in the area.

Do you think "the average deadhead miles to L2 charging is 6 miles" is a realistic statement? Yes or No.

 

[WetEV]

So, the best you can do for marginal price per kWh to charge an EV w/o solar is 27.2 cents per kWh.

I don't charge my EV at home, so I'm on E-TOU-C. See page 2 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU-C.pdf. Each kWh above baseline is 40 to 53 cents per kWh. Baselines are defined the same as E-1. See page 4. For each kWh above baseline, you don't receive the 8.7 cent per kWh credit. That's how they do tiering. So, the marginal cost to fuel an EV at home on that plan off-peak would be 40 to 45 cents per kWh since for sure, I'd be pushed into tier 2 by doing so. I most months am under baseline or slightly over (maybe 1 to 10 kWh over).

Rough calculation is that about 8-10 kWh replaces a gallon of gasoline. So the best you can do is roughly $2.72 per gallon equivalent. And your current rate would be $4.50 per gallon equivalent.

Today's AAA average price for gasoline for CA is $5.275
National AAA average price for gasoline is $3.820
MI AAA average price for gasoline is $3.767

That's below the national average.

How about MI's electric rate?
National average is $0.1611
MI's rate is $0.1926

Above average electric price, below average gas price. Wonder what answer they were paid to find. :roll:


https://gasprices.aaa.com/
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a

 

[MikeinPA]

And then there is the actual cost of a gallon of gas...

Somehow this off topic track has taken us back to the OP's question, does the charging port matter that much? Well, if you are charging at home on L2 most of the time, maybe not.

 

[GRA]

So did they provide costs for all or at least some of these options? It seems very plausible to me that you might spend more than gas on an EVSE plus electrical work plus electric cost for the most expensive EVSE option, the most expensive electrical grid, and the shortest daily driving. Oh, and add the punitive taxes on EVs in some states. Oh, and not deduct any subsidies and/or rebates.

EV and fuel taxes were included. Subsidies and rebates for EVSES/installation vary by income as well as location, making any such calc outside of a restricted area and without knowledge of income impossible.

Exactly. Use the highest case taxes and the lowest case rebates. Oh yea, balanced view. Right.

As I pointed out, rebates and subsidies are usually dependent on both area and income, while fuel taxes and EV licensing fees are universal at the state level. I'd love to see more detailed data, but unless someone can and is willing to provide all that income and subsidy info, it can't happen. Totals, sure.

Oh, and most charging is at home, and most public charging by energy delivered is at the workplace. Workplace charging is often cheaper than other public charging, and can be cheaper than home charging. Did Anderson Consulting consider workplace charging? Other than to dismiss it? Charging behaviors are not simple, see:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261921016214

Of course they're not simple, which is why they included several different categories, including 100% home charging, 90% home charging, and all-commercial charging.

Not a single category with some or all workplace charging, the most energy delivered form of public charging. Oh yea, balanced view.

What percentage of workplaces do you think have charging now, pay or subsidized by employers? In Silicon Valley and other high-tech, high-income hubs, sure, a few BEV manufacturers, yeah, and a maybe a few token chargers at a few government locations, but the vast majority of workplaces? Nothing.

Oh, and deadhead miles to charging. Bogus. BOGUS. Bogus.

How is it bogus?

I've already explained. Sure, there is extra miles driven at times as public DCFC locations are not as convenient and numerous as gas pumps. But the numbers chosen are bogus, especially the L2.

Do you really think the average deadhead miles to L2 charging is 6 miles? When most energy delivered is workplace charging?

Six miles round-trip, not one-way, assuming that's even an option. In large parts of the country it isn't. If you've got affordable or free workplace charging, great, you're one of the lucky ones. Most people don't have that option.

realistically you have to be able to leave the car unattended at an L2 for many hours if not overnight, with the attendant security concerns.

Which you almost always do at a hotel, correct? Likewise a restaurant, correct? Likewise at work, correct? And these don't involve an extra 6 miles of driving, correct?

I don't leave my car for hours at restaurants, don't stay in hotels, and none of the places I've worked has ever had any charging, even now. As I stated, I'd have to leave the car overnight at local L2s with no security, despite living in the CMSA with the highest % of PEV sales in the country. I'm relatively fortunate in that I have L2s in walking distance from my home, although as I've pointed out they're too expensive and/or have severely limited hours of accessibility for me to use them.

I don't go much out of my way ever to get to an commercial L2. I use L2 charging at hotels, restaurants, workplace, etc. No deadhead miles at all. None. Never. Ok, EV parking might be a few steps farther away from the hotel door. Does anyone drive 6 miles to get to a commercial L2? This is just ludicrous. Beyond any realistic belief. What are you going to do while the car charges? Not even plausible.

I've driven 12 miles or more one way to an L2 on the route through Yosemite to the east side of the Sierra, and my friends have been driving 13 or 15 miles one way on this trip, because that's all the L2s that are available for now in the area.

Do you think "the average deadhead miles to L2 charging is 6 miles" is a realistic statement? Yes or No.

To and from, in many areas, yes. My local options are closer albeit expensive, inconvenient and/or insecure, and again that's in an area with the highest PEV sales in the country, and local and state governments that are solidly behind PEVs and building their charging infrastructure. I've given examples of what's it's like in other areas I'm familiar with, where the round-trip deadhead to and from L2s is 26 to 30 miles, and that's in an area with lots of tourists traveling in from major metro areas with lots of PEVs.