Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Joeviocoe]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ai4b2-v971MwdERhVWx1aW9hNExTRGMtek5VSzd0NWc
or

http://tinyurl.com/Leaf-BadBatteryMap

I just created this dynamic spreadsheet and map, that is linked to the MyNissanLeaf wiki page that tracks the claims of battery degradation on that forum.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Still a work in progress, but it gives a good picture of the how this issue is distributed geographically.

Interesting, but a couple of comments:

1) It is very hard to see the light colored circles (at least for my old eyes)
2) Why is there a dot in New York? I don't know of a report in that area of battery capacity loss
3) A much larger map would be better

Thanks for your efforts.

3) There is a full sized World Map (google type) that is on another tab at the bottom, you can zoom in and out.
2) While the World Map spreadsheet automatically resolves GPS coordinates based on a google search of the city given.
...The smaller U.S. map is done directly using the city name. Sometimes it shows an anomaly since the data from the wiki page contains non-standard city names.
1) And I darkened the colors a bit.

 

[mark1313]

So now Nissan is blaming high speed driving for battery capacity loss...I do not use the freeway and drive slow (6.1M/KW) and still loss 2 capacity bars in one month Nissan ..
So lets see what Nissan new rules are for Phx and the Leaf..
1. Do not drive fast,No freeway driving..
2. Do not drive in the heat
3. Do not park in the heat
4. Do not charge in the heat and only 80%
5. Use of Leaf only in the winter time is highy recommended by Nissan

 

[JPWhite]

So now Nissan is blaming high speed driving for battery capacity loss...I do not use the freeway and drive slow (6.1M/KW) and still loss 2 capacity bars in one month Nissan ..
So lets see what Nissan new rules are for Phx and the Leaf..
1. Do not drive fast,No freeway driving..
2. Do not drive in the heat
3. Do not park in the heat
4. Do not charge in the heat and only 80%
5. Use of Leaf only in the winter time is highy recommended by Nissan

You forgot, "Install an air conditioner and insulation in your garage and keep the garage at a temperature suitable for hanging meat".

 

[RegGuheert]

And: "No driving over 7500 miles per year!"

 

[Joeviocoe]

So now Nissan is blaming high speed driving for battery capacity loss...I do not use the freeway and drive slow (6.1M/KW) and still loss 2 capacity bars in one month Nissan ..
So lets see what Nissan new rules are for Phx and the Leaf..
1. Do not drive fast,No freeway driving..
2. Do not drive in the heat
3. Do not park in the heat
4. Do not charge in the heat and only 80%
5. Use of Leaf only in the winter time is highy recommended by Nissan

I don't own a Leaf, so I don't know... but please tell me.

Is this OFFICIAL statements from Nissan of North America? Or is this some sale/service rep at one of the dealerships in Arizona?
I know ONLY of the recommendations to only charge up to 80%.

But who is officially recommending those 5 points? Who from Nissan is recommending lower speeds or (as Spooka's video claims) less annual driving????

 

[RegGuheert]

But who is officially recommending those 5 points? Who from Nissan is recommending lower speeds or (as Spooka's video claims) less annual driving????

No one at Nissan is saying these things. However, Mark Perry said some (all?) of these things just before he retired. (Sorry, but I don't know the link to that article.)

 

[leafwing]

Lack of active cooling is an oversimplification.

Why isn't every LEAF driven in hot weather climates losing range at relatively equal rates? Even ones with similar driving and charging patterns are not showing similar capacity loss.

It is not oversimplification; it is the main reason why some cars experiencing early capacity loss. There could be other minor reasons.
Not all the cars are at the same age, same mileage, same charging and driving patterns . The lack of active cooling in hot climates accelerates the degradation of the battery. We did not have this problem last summer when most of the packs were fresh. Next summer you will see more of it.

Or, all the cars with early capacity loss are equipped with defective batteries. After the Casa Grande test, Nissan said all the tested batteries are performing within specifications.

 

[MrIanB]

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

Ian B

 

[TomT]

Agreed. I lived in P.R. for two years and it is simply not compatible with the Leaf on many fronts.

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

 

[derkraut]

Agreed. I lived in P.R. for two years and it is simply not compatible with the Leaf on many fronts.

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

I agree that P.R. may not be a good location for operating the Leaf; but there could be an advantage there, i,e: Since most of the hijackers down there wouldn't know how to power it up, it would be less likely to be stolen??? :lol:

 

[JPWhite]

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

Ian B

I doubt you will see any LEAF's just yet. I believe Nissan have chosen to launch the 2013 LEAF in PR. They don't come off the assembly line until at least December this year.

It would be nice if I could get my hands on one before Dec 31st, that way I can get my tax credit withing 8-10 weeks if I choose to trade for one. If they launch it in the US in January/February, I'll probably wait until later in the year, I wouldn't want to wait over a year to get my credit, and other manufacturers may come up with a better alternative.

 

[spike09]

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

Ian B

The LEAF is well suited for an island like Puerto Rico. It is only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide. The distance between all but a few cities is doable on a single charge even with a wilted LEAF. While PR is hot, it is not a desert climate. How many days does PR have that average over 95 degrees?

 

[JPWhite]

The LEAF is well suited for an island like Puerto Rico. It is only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide. The distance between all but a few cities is doable on a single charge even with a wilted LEAF. While PR is hot, it is not a desert climate. How many days does PR have that average over 95 degrees?

It'll be interesting to how it goes in PR. Certainly from a logistical point of view it should be fine. If two Frenchmen can circumnavigate the world in an EV with less range than the LEAF, then it should do fine on a relatively small island.

Other consideration however may make the proposition suspect. Who could afford one there? Who would maintain it? (Shade tree mechanics need not apply). Cultural and infrastructure issues come to mind.

I hope it works for them, but like Tom T I'm not so sure.

 

[DaveEV]

The LEAF is well suited for an island like Puerto Rico. It is only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide. The distance between all but a few cities is doable on a single charge even with a wilted LEAF. While PR is hot, it is not a desert climate. How many days does PR have that average over 95 degrees?

Looks like PR is comparable to most tropical climates - not that much different than Florida or Hawaii. Doesn't look like it ever exceeds 100F. But the average high year round is 83-89 with the average low 70-76. It's those high average lows that will keep the battery from ever really cooling off which could be a factor. Certainly not as bad as Phoenix, though. Those months with an average high of close to 105F highs are brutal.

 

[spooka]

So now Nissan is blaming high speed driving for battery capacity loss...I do not use the freeway and drive slow (6.1M/KW) and still loss 2 capacity bars in one month Nissan ..
So lets see what Nissan new rules are for Phx and the Leaf..
1. Do not drive fast,No freeway driving..
2. Do not drive in the heat
3. Do not park in the heat
4. Do not charge in the heat and only 80%
5. Use of Leaf only in the winter time is highy recommended by Nissan

I don't own a Leaf, so I don't know... but please tell me.

Is this OFFICIAL statements from Nissan of North America? Or is this some sale/service rep at one of the dealerships in Arizona?
I know ONLY of the recommendations to only charge up to 80%.

But who is officially recommending those 5 points? Who from Nissan is recommending lower speeds or (as Spooka's video claims) less annual driving????

Got this

Now the results of a Nissan study of those vehicles are in. The cars are being driven too much. According to Green Car Reports, Nissan says:

Average annual mileage [of those cars] is about 16,000 per year, more than double the average Phoenix customer mileage of 7,500 miles per year.

From here

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/429330/dont-drive-your-nissan-leaf-too-much/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this

In an official letter to the Leaf community, a Nissan executive ties the complaints to high mileage. The miles from the seven cars tested averaged about 16,000 miles a year. Nissan's owner manual states the one-year checkup for the car is at 15,000 miles. The company now states 7,500 miles a year is the average commute for a Phoenix driver.

From here

http://www.kpho.com/story/19651301/pulling-the-plug-nissan-buys-back-at-least-two-nissan-leafs-under-arizonas-lemon-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So Nissan says Phx drivers average 20 miles/day but here

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/10/28/nissan-claims-average-leaf-is-driven-37-miles-per-day-more-rang/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan states the national average is almost double that of Phx at 37 miles per day. I find that interesting to say the least.

 

[MrIanB]

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

Ian B

The LEAF is well suited for an island like Puerto Rico. It is only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide. The distance between all but a few cities is doable on a single charge even with a wilted LEAF. While PR is hot, it is not a desert climate. How many days does PR have that average over 95 degrees?

How hot in regards to 95 degrees, about 10 months of the year. The car will sell for mid to upper 40k due to import tariff on top of the tt&l fees. A lot of the in between towns roads are up and down hills which will reduce range somewhat. The cost of electricity is ridiculously high and salaries are low to make it a niche car and not affordable to the masses. The big problem I see, is building the charging station infrastructure since everything is built out of concrete, you can imagine the cost to tearing up roads and pavement to install the units; This will cost money that the government does not have due to poor economy and always on brink of bankruptcy. Unless they can get the U.S. government to give them money, I don't know how fast it will get built.

I talked to my cousin in January when I got my Leaf and he sounded interested but, when I told him the cost plus the fact that you need to plug to recharge at home, that made it not affordable for him at this time. His drive to the toll road station that he manages is 45 miles from home and a charging station would be needed. I explain that his fast as hell driving style would also have to change in order to make it to the station.

Ian B

 

[MrIanB]

The LEAF is well suited for an island like Puerto Rico. It is only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide. The distance between all but a few cities is doable on a single charge even with a wilted LEAF. While PR is hot, it is not a desert climate. How many days does PR have that average over 95 degrees?

It'll be interesting to how it goes in PR. Certainly from a logistical point of view it should be fine. If two Frenchmen can circumnavigate the world in an EV with less range than the LEAF, then it should do fine on a relatively small island.

Other consideration however may make the proposition suspect. Who could afford one there? Who would maintain it? (Shade tree mechanics need not apply). Cultural and infrastructure issues come to mind.

I hope it works for them, but like Tom T I'm not so sure.

JP, all the American, Korean and Japanese automakers sell cars in P.R. including Nissan. All they need is training.

Ian B

 

[johndoe74]

Filed a BBB complaint on Nissan and received a call from Nissan. Looks like they are sticking to the script: 20% capacity loss on the first year is normal, too much highway driving is bad, driving high speed is bad, yadda yadda yadda. The rep then said the battery loss should level off. Of course when my wife asked if that is guaranteed, they said no.

 

[MrIanB]

The LEAF is well suited for an island like Puerto Rico. It is only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide. The distance between all but a few cities is doable on a single charge even with a wilted LEAF. While PR is hot, it is not a desert climate. How many days does PR have that average over 95 degrees?

Looks like PR is comparable to most tropical climates - not that much different than Florida or Hawaii. Doesn't look like it ever exceeds 100F. But the average high year round is 83-89 with the average low 70-76. It's those high average lows that will keep the battery from ever really cooling off which could be a factor. Certainly not as bad as Phoenix, though. Those months with an average high of close to 105F highs are brutal.

Those temperatures are in the open in Puerto Rico. Most cities, every building is on top or right next to the other creating higher temperature like the heat index. That is where I believe the batteries may have a problem. Keep in mind that most subdivisions, parking have no shade to help cool those batteries. When they build a new subdivision, the first thing to go are all the trees. They strip the ground to dirt/or the mountain and start building homes and roads. Putting a tree is an afterthought once the house is completed.

Ian B

 

[mksE55]

Filed a BBB complaint on Nissan and received a call from Nissan. Looks like they are sticking to the script: 20% capacity loss on the first year is normal, too much highway driving is bad, driving high speed is bad, yadda yadda yadda. The rep then said the battery loss should level off. Of course when my wife asked if that is guaranteed, they said no.

are you listed in the WIKI, Did they say at what loss is abnormal. ( is there even a loss rate they said would be a problem.) you never mentioned your mileage. Keep us posted on what the BBB does and says to you. I think we are going to see alot of people use that system.