Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[mwalsh]

^ According to a previous post though, this would appear to be a CarMax car. I could be wrong, but I really can't see a CarMax resetting the BMS on a LEAF.

 

[keydiver]

I was surprised to see that I had lost my 4th bar today:

40,788 miles
43.47 AHr
SOH = 66%
HX = 45.20%
GIDs = 140

I checked it a few days ago, and the AHr was actually lower, at 43.44 AHr, but for some reason the bar didn't drop until today, even though the AHr is slightly higher. I wasn't expecting to lose the 4th bar until spring, when our weather turned warmer, so it took me a bit by surprise. As you can see, the cells are still very well balanced, so the heat degradation has been evenly distributed. I called the 877-664-2738 phone number for Nissan EV Customer Support, but Tiffany there said it wasn't necessary to start a case, unless I have a problem with the dealer. So, time to call the dealer!

 

[Lambtron]

Correct on this being a Car Max purchase. The car was priced in line with the rest of the country at the time. Not knowing too much about Electrics at the time, I rolled the dice and as far as I'm concerned, for the price (12k)I love the car and and am having fun learning about it. Even if I add the $6000 battery to the price I still have the car @ $18K for a vehicle that should go many more miles barring any accidents and do it with very low maintenance costs in all other mechanical areas. The car was in pristine condition when I bought it and still had the new car smell. I took my chances but still I am not at a loss. I am waiting out the clock to see if I can beat it. I bought this car on a curious whim and If I need to invest some more, to bring it back to 100%, so be it.

 

[DaveEV]

A possible action plan for those of us owners (or potential owners) who just miss the capacity warranty:

Since there seems to be a decent number of LEAFs popping up down 8 bars already on the used market, it seems that it should be possible to buy one of those with similar mileage to your own vehicle and get a new battery in it.

Once done - sell your LEAF.

I think your out of pocket costs could be reduced to $2-3k or less if done right. Worst case you might come out at $4-5k if you pay too much for the other LEAF and get a horrible deal on your original LEAF. So done right you can get your battery for substantially less than the $6k it would cost to have the dealer swap a new pack into your original LEAF.

Anyone have any better ideas?

 

[Valdemar]

Maybe. Buyers are smarter than you think, between that and the sales tax you need to pay the difference is likely not worth neither the risk nor the shorter warranty on the replacement pack.

 

[Stanton]

A possible action plan for those of us owners (or potential owners) who just miss the capacity warranty:

Since there seems to be a decent number of LEAFs popping up down 8 bars already on the used market, it seems that it should be possible to buy one of those with similar mileage to your own vehicle and get a new battery in it.

Once done - sell your LEAF.

I think your out of pocket costs could be reduced to $2-3k or less if done right. Worst case you might come out at $4-5k if you pay too much for the other LEAF and get a horrible deal on your original LEAF. So done right you can get your battery for substantially less than the $6k it would cost to have the dealer swap a new pack into your original LEAF.

Anyone have any better ideas?

I think you're underestimating the efficiency of market forces. You're not the only one who knows the value of used Leafs, and at the very best I would think you could break even; more likely is that you will lose money on the deal and end up with a car that wasn't cared for as well as your own.

 

[edatoakrun]

A possible action plan for those of us owners (or potential owners) who just miss the capacity warranty:

Since there seems to be a decent number of LEAFs popping up down 8 bars already on the used market, it seems that it should be possible to buy one of those with similar mileage to your own vehicle and get a new battery in it.

Once done - sell your LEAF.

I think your out of pocket costs could be reduced to $2-3k or less if done right...
Anyone have any better ideas?

What your comment illustrates, is that a replacement pack only adds a few $K to the value of any 8 bar 2011 LEAF.

So, the obvious alternatives, all better ideas in most circumstances are:

1: Keep your LEAF, as long as the pack capacity still meets your needs.

2: Buy a 2011 LEAF with a replacement pack already installed under warrantee (that may be hard to find, but probably a lot easier than finding that dumb seller who hasn't replaced the pack for themselves).

3: Sell your 2011, and buy a new or used 2015/2016, either of which is available to California buyers (for example) for under $15,000 net, with various levels of equipment and use. Get a new or near-new LEAF, with the battery capacity and exactly the options/improvements you want, for well under $10,000 net, after you sell your old LEAF.

Which illustrates that most of you who are so overtly obsessed with battery capacity loss, may really be more upset with how quickly Nissan has reduced LEAF transaction prices, which (like all mass-market BEVs) are down ~30% in just ~5 years.

And that rapid a decline in BEV costs, is not a bad development at all, IMO...

 

[Stoaty]

Which illustrates that most of you who are so overtly obsessed with battery capacity loss, may really be more upset with how quickly Nissan has reduced LEAF transaction prices, which (like all mass-market BEVs) are down ~30% in just ~5 years.

No, it's the rapid battery capacity loss. I have no interest in selling my Leaf, will probably give it to a family member when it no longer meets my needs.

 

[DaveEV]

No, it's the rapid battery capacity loss.

Exactly. If I had better than 80% capacity as Nissan led us to believe after 5 years and could still drive 60 miles at 65 mph I would be much more satisfied.

As it is now driving past 50 miles requires care or recharging on the way. It's amazing how much 10 miles of range loss makes a difference in utility. Many trips which once could be done easily are now difficult at best or impossible at worst.

I'm just looking for an inexpensive option to possibly make the car usable again - at least until affordable 200 mi EVs hit the market.

Or who knows, I may get lucky and I'll lose the 4th bar before the capacity warranty runs out.

 

[dhanson865]

Just rolled over 45,000 miles on my 2012 SL.

78% SOH
51.200 AHr
59.49 Hx

 

[keydiver]

I was surprised to see that I had lost my 4th bar today:
40,788 miles
43.47 AHr
SOH = 66%
HX = 45.20%
GIDs = 140
So, time to call the dealer!

Just got my Leaf back from the dealer. 6-8 week wait for the pack to come in, just like everyone else is saying. So, by the end of March I should be back to 12 bars!

 

[RonDawg]

As you appear to have 10+ months and almost 20k miles left on the capacity warranty, how come you decided to replace it now rather than wait until near the end of the warranty period (or at least after the worst summer heat is over)? Was the remaining capacity preventing you from using the car most of the time?

 

[sub3marathonman]

As you appear to have 10+ months and almost 20k miles left on the capacity warranty, how come you decided to replace it now rather than wait until near the end of the warranty period (or at least after the worst summer heat is over)?

I've wondered that too, not just specifically about keydriver but in general.

Also, isn't it probably much longer than 10+ months, as it is my understanding that the warranty starts on the in-service date for the car, not the manufacturing date. And keydriver has a 2012, so it could be well over a year more from the time the car was placed in service. Also, if you bought a car that had sat on the dealership lot for nine months or a year, wouldn't you try to wait that much longer too? I haven't seen any requirement to get the battery replaced under warranty immediately, but maybe there is?

 

[Stanton]

As you appear to have 10+ months and almost 20k miles left on the capacity warranty, how come you decided to replace it now rather than wait until near the end of the warranty period (or at least after the worst summer heat is over)?

I've wondered that too, not just specifically about keydriver but in general.

I can only speak for myself, but a few months here or there doesn't make much difference in the long run; 8+ years out of any car is pretty good (I'll have saved almost $16k in gas by that time). The fact is, I wasn't going to make it through the winter (even though it's mild here) on 8 CB's, so I ran (not walked) to the dealer when it dropped.

 

[Evoforce]

As you appear to have 10+ months and almost 20k miles left on the capacity warranty, how come you decided to replace it now rather than wait until near the end of the warranty period (or at least after the worst summer heat is over)? Was the remaining capacity preventing you from using the car most of the time?

For us; my lady used the diminished capacity car to go back and fourth to work. She was developing range anxiety even though the car could still barely make the trip without recharging. She has no ability to charge at work. The QC stations that I rely on (that she could have too) are broken. There is also that nagging reality that Nissan is not legally responsible to replace our battery even though they have been doing so as a business practice. In a bad luck case scenario, they could change their policy and waiting could possibly have forfeited our new battery. In my case... the lady got what the lady wanted. It has come with benefits! I keep teasing her that I'm going to trade her my 13 month old lizard car which is tracking to drop it's first bar around March-ish. She is very adamant that I am not getting my hands on her car under ANY circumstances. So, I'll settle with keeping my hands on her.

 

[keydiver]

As you appear to have 10+ months and almost 20k miles left on the capacity warranty, how come you decided to replace it now rather than wait until near the end of the warranty period (or at least after the worst summer heat is over)? Was the remaining capacity preventing you from using the car most of the time?

10 months means nothing too me. Actually, by the time they replace it, it will be only a little over 8 months until my 5 year anniversary. I guess my reasons mainly come down to:
1) I'm tired of having to keep it charged at 100% all the time, just to have 50 miles of range.
2) I'm just really tired of the increased range anxiety. There have been way too many times that I've just had to drive a different car for the day because I couldn't be sure where all I might have to go. Its 10 miles from my house to the nearest decent sized town, in 2 different directions, so right there goes 20 of my 50 miles of range. 40% right off the top.
3) I'm actually anxious to see how the new chemistry holds up in Florida. I need to contact JupiterLeaf and see how his 1 year old Lizard is doing.
4) I don't really need the Leaf any more, so having a fresh battery in it would free me up to make a decision of what to do with it. I'm thinking about just giving it to my parents, so they can retire their Versa with 180,000 miles on it. I couldn't in good conscience give them an 8 bar Leaf.

 

[RonDawg]

Also, isn't it probably much longer than 10+ months, as it is my understanding that the warranty starts on the in-service date for the car, not the manufacturing date. And keydriver has a 2012, so it could be well over a year more from the time the car was placed in service.

The delivery date on his profile says December 8, 2011, so that's when his warranty starts unless he bought a dealer demo or manufacturer demo car In which the in-service date would be when the dealer or manufacturer started using it. However as he bought an early production 2012 in 2011 I doubt that's the case. He likely got a "fresh" car, or one that is as fresh as it can be given it had to be shipped from Japan.

 

[RonDawg]

As you appear to have 10+ months and almost 20k miles left on the capacity warranty, how come you decided to replace it now rather than wait until near the end of the warranty period (or at least after the worst summer heat is over)? Was the remaining capacity preventing you from using the car most of the time?

I guess my reasons mainly come down to:
1) I'm tired of having to keep it charged at 100% all the time, just to have 50 miles of range.
2) I'm just really tired of the increased range anxiety.

Well if the car is causing you more grief than joy then I can see why you didn't wait.

 

[TimLee]

She is very adamant that I am not getting my hands on her car under ANY circumstances. So, I'll settle with keeping my hands on her.

++++ :shock:

 

[hillzofvalp]

All, I have constructed a survey to help my better determine what makes the can bus update the SOH and HX information and any little details that might be a factor in a bar dropping on the capacity bar display. Please take a few minutes to fill this out and that way we have all the data in one place. As a greater number of people push the limits of the stupid 66.25% mark, we ought to have more understanding of what's going on to maximize eligibility for replacement.

SURVEY:
http://goo.gl/forms/GFAMdw3RoN

I personally have been waiting 3 months for my 4th bar to drop.. And am stumped. I brought the pack temp to 75-90F, and I tricked the exterior thermistor to 94F in 40F garage and it is still frozen. I have driven it hard around the block and it's still frozen.

I've heard various stories like "just pulled out of driveway" or "just did a full charge" or "QCed a lot and it was hot out". I think there is some stupid factor we are all missing as simple as hitting to accept Nissan telematics agreement or as complicated as pulling X amount of power for Y time.

I believe that there are two things happening. The BMS is likely always up to date with the latest and greatest SOH and Hx data. However, the CAN bus only passes that information under certain conditions. Since I have not been able to get it to update by fussing with the temperature and cycling it, I believe that telematics or other system factor has something to do with it.

We've seen everyone lose the 4th bar in a range of 42-43.5Ah Wouldn't it unrealistic to think Nissan is playing God on these and remotely triggering these events?

I visited dealership at 67-68%SOH and documented with Consumer affairs that I had basically reached the 70% threshold. Is it possible they flagged my car and will not remotely engage the 4th bar loss because they predetermined that it was impossible to lose .1-2% of SOH in the 100 miles remaining on the warranty?