Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[spooka]

I called the dealer in with the advertisement, and talked to him about it.

I think he got the message, which was that there are currently both filed and pending lawsuits over claims of mileage on the LEAF, and if he wanted to make sure his dealership was excluded from these, it might be wise to just advertise the EPA 73 mile range.

Good idea Tony. Wish I had thought to do that.

 

[EVDrive]

Not a chance I would be part of this kind of a lawsuit. Make way for the greed monsters. Nissan made it really clear that the range would vary and the sticker on the window said 73 miles range. Anyone who bought the car without reading the window sticker is a fool.

 

[vrwl]

Not a chance I would be part of this kind of a lawsuit. Make way for the greed monsters. Nissan made it really clear that the range would vary and the sticker on the window said 73 miles range. Anyone who bought the car without reading the window sticker is a fool.

Or bought a used Leaf that didn't have a window sticker on it.

 

[surfingslovak]

Or bought a used Leaf that didn't have a window sticker on it.

Like one of the plaintiffs. I believe he purchased a Leaf with a missing capacity bar and had no idea what it meant. I remember someone asking about it on the forum.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=218463#p218463" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[LEAFfan]

thank God I only lease cars with 0 down always.
Ian B

So you're paying an extra $60/mo. since you didn't put $2000 down? I was told for every $1000 you don't put down, it's $30 extra/mo. at 4.9%/.00204 which was the lowest MF.

 

[smkettner]

Not a chance I would be part of this kind of a lawsuit. Make way for the greed monsters. Nissan made it really clear that the range would vary and the sticker on the window said 73 miles range. Anyone who bought the car without reading the window sticker is a fool.

You may have to opt out of a class action. I can't imagine the settlement would be more than a $1,000 coupon to trade in on a new Nissan while the lawyer gets a new beach house on each coast.

 

[smkettner]

thank God I only lease cars with 0 down always.
Ian B

So you're paying an extra $60/mo. since you didn't put $2000 down? I was told for every $1000 you don't put down, it's $30 extra/mo. at 4.9%/.00204 which was the lowest MF.

I would think less down would make you even more upside down to exit early even for a lease.

 

[Stoaty]

Not a chance I would be part of this kind of a lawsuit. Make way for the greed monsters. Nissan made it really clear that the range would vary and the sticker on the window said 73 miles range. Anyone who bought the car without reading the window sticker is a fool.

While I read and studied extensively before purchasing my Leaf, I don't think you can reasonably expect everyone to do the same. Nissan never should have been making the 100 mile claim that they did over and over again. That is the number that would stick in most peoples minds. If they had advertised the EPA range, and given out data for different climates, they wouldn't be in this mess. We know now that they hid a lot of important information that should have been disclosed prior to the sale. How many people would have skipped buying the Leaf if they knew that 10% capacity loss in one year was pretty close to the expected national average? How many people in hot climates would have said "No thanks" if they knew that they would see accelerated rate of degradation--especially if they drove more than 7500 miles per year. How many knew that driving 16,000 miles per year in a hot climate would be considered excessive by Nissan and would lead to high but "normal" rates of degradation?

While I don't want to see the EV movement hindered by this lawsuit, let's face it--Nissan brought this problem on themselves. They used too many generalities and weasel words in order to boost sales and glossed over or hid the information needed to make an informed purchase decision.

PS I am glad I purchased my Leaf, so it can't be taken away and crushed. It will work out fine for my needs for about 10 years, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[dsh]

Absoluteily. By the way, thanks Tony for your updated synopsis at:

http://insideevs.com/all-the-result...fs-with-lost-capacity-not-instrument-failure/
Tony Williams
says:
September 27, 2012 at 12:57 am Ideal temperature for the battery must be defined. Ideal long life is at a very cool temperature, and maximum range is at a very warm temperature. Obviously, the two extremes are not complimentary. 70F is a good compromise to long life and long range.

Nissan has never published a heat – degradation table, but we have learned about how Nissan is able to claim that all the Phoenix cars are “normal”, regardless of measured battery performance or range.

Nissan has recently announced what heretofore has been a state secret; a “Nissan-LEAF-Year”(TM) of battery degradation is 7500 miles in Phoenix. Sure, they never bothered to tell a single leasee (or owner) while they signed up for a normal lease of 12,000 miles per year. It’s not in advertising, pages of liability disclaimers, or statements from Nissan on degradation.

So, in 5 real earth years, that normal 12,000 per year driver will drive 60,000 miles, or the equivalent of 8 of the Nissan-LEAF-Years(TM) of 7500 miles each.

With reindexed data in the past few days of 76% battery capacity remaining (from the previous often quoted 80%) in 5 Nissan-LEAF-Years(TM), the average annual degradation is about 4.8% per year. Therefore, a 12,000 real world miles per year driver will have 4.8% of degradation multiplied by 8 NLY’s, or 38.4% loss (61.6% remaining).

The 73 mile EPA range LEAF is now 45 miles of total range in 5 years with an average driver, or only 33 miles until the Low Battery Warning comes on.

Originally posted by Randy on wiltingleaf.com.

http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...nissan-leaf-battery-life-class-action-lawsuit

I now predict the LEAF's demise. Not the way I wanted this to go down...



Nissan Leaf Battery Life Class Action Lawsuit

By Mike Holter


Nissan Leaf
A federal class action lawsuit accuses Nissan of concealing that its Leaf vehicles have a design defect that causes them to prematurely lose battery life and driving range.

California Plaintiff Humberto Klee says Nissan advertises the Leaf’s driving range at 100 miles or less, depending on a number of variables such as road conditions and the weather. What Nissan doesn’t disclose in its advertising, however, is that the advertised driving range is based on the vehicle’s performance only after charging the battery to 100% capacity – which Nissan tells owners not to do because it could cause battery damage, the Nissan Leaf class action lawsuit says.

“Before purchase or lease, Nissan failed to disclose its own recommendations that owners avoid charging the battery beyond 80% in order to mitigate battery damage and failed to disclose that Nissan’s estimated 100 mile range was based on a full charge battery, which is contrary to Nissan’s own recommendation for battery charging,” the Nissan Leaf battery class action lawsuit says.

“Consumers thus were misled by Nissan’s representations regarding driving range without being aware that these ranges were only achievable by charging the battery in a manner contrary to Nissan’s own guidance.”

Nissan also failed to disclose and/or intentionally omitted to reveal a design defect in the Leaf’s battery system that causes the Leaf to suffer “widespread, severe and premature loss of driving range, battery capacity and battery life,” the class action lawsuit continues.

The Nissan Leaf class action lawsuit is brought on behalf of a proposed Class of all California and Arizona consumers who purchased or leased any 2011 through 2012 Nissan Leaf vehicle. It is asking, among other things, that Nissan remove and replace Class Members’ battery systems with a suitable alternative product, reform its Leaf battery warranty, cover the loss of battery capacity under warranty, and reimburse Class Members for any repairs made. Klee is alleging violations of California’s Consumer Legal Remedies Act, Arizona’s Consumer Fraud Act and Unfair Business Act, negligent misrepresentation, and breach of Implied Warranty under the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act.

 

[klapauzius]

Originally posted by Randy on wiltingleaf.com.

http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...nissan-leaf-battery-life-class-action-lawsuit

I now predict the LEAF's demise. Not the way I wanted this to go down...



Nissan Leaf Battery Life Class Action Lawsuit

By Mike Holter


Nissan Leaf
A federal class action lawsuit accuses Nissan of concealing that its Leaf vehicles have a design defect that causes them to prematurely lose battery life and driving range.

I hope not, but they sure had it coming...

 

[opossum]

Not just 400 pages... we'll soon have our 100th 1-bar loser (we're at 99 right now).

And not to tease everyone too much, but there's going to be a 2nd 4-bar loser added to the wiki... probably by Friday night. :shock:

Move along... everything is "normal."

 

[turbo2ltr]

Random comments...

1: Nissan sells the Skyline. A car that initially had a launch mode that voids the warranty, and yet nissan advertised the performance numbers generated while using the launch control. Kinda sounds familiar here.

Nissan fixed the problem for its second model year by updating the computer and transmission, but customers who purchased the first run of GTRs thought these problems should never have come up on an $80,000 car and filed a lawsuit. According to Autoblog, as part of the settlement of that lawsuit, Nissan will upgrade all GTRs to the newer specifications for free. Nissan will also reset the warranty on any GTR to five years/60,000 miles when the upgrade is performed.

2: The only people that win in class action lawsuits (or any for that matter) are the lawyers. IANAL, so I will not participate in any class action.

3: Kph for sure.

http://0.tqn.com/d/cars/1/0/V/w/1/leaf_dash.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[opossum]

No worries. There's a lawyer in AZ getting ready to fire off a lawsuit for a handful of clients as well. :twisted:

 

[Nubo]

Originally posted by Randy on wiltingleaf.com.

http://www.topclassactions.com/laws...nissan-leaf-battery-life-class-action-lawsuit

I now predict the LEAF's demise. Not the way I wanted this to go down...



Nissan Leaf Battery Life Class Action Lawsuit

By Mike Holter


Nissan Leaf
A federal class action lawsuit accuses Nissan of concealing that its Leaf vehicles have a design defect that causes them to prematurely lose battery life and driving range.

I hope not, but they sure had it coming...

So sad, because it was so preventable.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Or bought a used Leaf that didn't have a window sticker on it.

Like one of the plaintiffs. In fact, he purchased a Leaf with a missing capacity bar and had no idea what it mean. I remember him asking about it on the forum.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=218463#p218463" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's my response to him, PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:34 am
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=218472#p218472" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope this helps and does anyone know any LEAF owner who paid to have any modules replaced and how many needed replacing?

To my knowledge, nobody has had to buy a module.... yet. Since I fully expect a "Citizens, all is well" from Nissan regarding capacity loss, and since I suspect the battery degrades all cells somewhat uniformly, the cheapest way to get back your range won't be buying up to 48 of the $600 modules (that are going to degrade exactly the same way as the ones you have).

The cheapest answer is probably unloading the car for something new, but if you have a lease, at least in California, I would go with Lemon Law proceedings (within 18 months of new) to give them back their car.

Much like Honda, you can absolutely count on lawsuits, should Nissan blunder as badly as Honda did. That's a very long term solution whose outcome is far from certain. I'd find a way to unload the car over buying any cells: not even one cell, since you'll be chasing a problem with your money that won't go away, and Nissan and the dealer make a huge profit off their faulty battery.

Imagine paying to drop the battery (one dealer charged $3000-$4000 for this when the car needed painting) every time you want to replace a cell. The costs would very quickly get out of hand.

Please don't do it.

 

[surfingslovak]

To my knowledge, nobody has had to buy a module.... yet. Since I fully expect a "Citizens, all is well" from Nissan regarding capacity loss, and since I suspect the battery degrades all cells somewhat uniformly, the cheapest way to get back your range won't be buying up to 48 of the $600 modules (that are going to degrade exactly the same way as the ones you have).

Tony, let me quote something straight from the horse's mouth:

They had to replace a bunch of battery cells. It took 16 days, parts had to be ordered, a specialist had to drive up from Los Angeles to do the repairs, yadda, yadda. It was expensive (I didn’t have to pay) – about $2600, plus a rental car $550.

So it's possible, although these were likely not retail customer prices. Be it as it may, I agree with your recommendation, and I would urge anyone who owned a Leaf outright to see if it could be traded in for a 2012 lease. I know couple of people that have done just that in recent weeks, and this is the prudent thing to do. I wouldn't wait for the uncertain outcome of lemon law buybacks or some litigation. If you like the Leaf and would like to keep driving it, see if there was dealer that would let you trade in for a 2012. I would have a hard look especially at the 24-month lease deals, since battery degradation likely won't have much impact, with the exception of the hotter climates.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

...snip...
2: The only people that win in class action lawsuits (or any for that matter) are the lawyers. ...snip...

While employed in Ohio in the 70's, we had a patent lawyer neighbor. Being from an agricultural background, he had a sketch of a cow hanging on his office wall. Pulling on the cow's tail was a farmer. Pulling the other direction on the rope halter was another farmer. Sitting on a stool between the two tug-of-war farmers was a lawyer . . . milking the cow.

 

[JeremyW]

Imagine paying to drop the battery (one dealer charged $3000-$4000 for this when the car needed painting) every time you want to replace a cell. The costs would very quickly get out of hand.

I still haven't gotten an official price for the battery. I've called parts department at dealerships who say they can't get a part number, the NOGASEV line gave me a case number (thanks), and I even asked Nissan executives on plug in America day in San Francisco.

Even at the rumored price of $5,000, that's not cost effective if you need a new pack every year and a half. TMS isn't looking too expensive now, is it? :lol:

 

[planet4ever]

PS I am glad I purchased my Leaf, so it can't be taken away and crushed. It will work out fine for my needs for about 10 years, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

I leased, but they can't take mine away, either. I have a written right to purchase at a guaranteed price at the end of the lease. This is not EV1 redux.

That said, my current plan is to let it go at the end of three years, because I expect something considerably better will be available by then. This is even though I, too, think my 2011 LEAF would fill [most of] my needs for considerably longer than that -- probably at least 5 years, though I doubt 10.

Ray

 

[LEAFfan]

PS I am glad I purchased my Leaf, so it can't be taken away and crushed. It will work out fine for my needs for about 10 years, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

I leased, but they can't take mine away, either. I have a written right to purchase at a guaranteed price at the end of the lease. This is not EV1 redux.

That said, my current plan is to let it go at the end of three years, because I expect something considerably better will be available by then.
Ray

+1 I'm hoping for a battery chemistry by 2014 that can take the heat without a TMS. :mrgreen: