Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[davekern]

When we got the car we would get about 75 - 80 miles. After the last software "upgrade" we dropped to 65-70.

You need to explain what you mean by how many miles you can "get". Is that down to 2 bars left? Or Low Battery warning? Or when the last bar disappears? Or Very Low Battery warning? Or turtle? Or ...?

I do see one hint in another statement you made:

We typically end day with car at 10 miles or under left.

You are obviously talking about that big number we call the Guess-O-Meter (abbreviated GOM) because of how unreliable it is. Perhaps you are saying that you are afraid to let the GOM go below 10, because you don't want to run out of "gas", so you are now getting only 65-70 miles before it drops to 10. Did you know that your battery is still about 20-25% full when the GOM drops to 10? If GOM=10 is your criterion, then the real range of your car is still about 75-90 miles, which is not bad.

You just have to remember that the GOM, which is often wildly optimistic when the battery is nearly full, becomes very conservative when you get closer to empty. I drove 19 miles once after the GOM dropped to 8, and no, I didn't see the turtle. I did get off the freeway for the last half of that drive, and was driving a country road at about 40-45 mph.

Ray

We typically use up most of the mileage on the car. I usually end the day with under 10 miles left. Actually, usually under 5 miles. If I still have more than low battery 8 miles than I am not talking about that since it is too much to guess. If I go 55 - 60 miles with A/C on and 50% freeway 50% city I will typically end up with dashes and no miles left on the GOM. Or maybe 3 miles with no bars or on the last one. Before the software update and when I first go the car I was closer to 70 miles.

 

[jspearman]

So if there are 20K Leafs out in the wild, and it costs $10K per pack, that's $200M, right? I'm ready for a recall. Nissan can take the hit. Our car is becoming more useless by the day and I'm ready for some action. Either replace my pack with something improved and packing a TMS or buy my #%#$^#$ car back. I don't want letters or assurances that they are listening, studying the problem, or that they care, I want some action. At this point I don't trust them and I just want to get out of our Leaf and trade it for a Volt. No more pure EV's until they have some history in this town.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I doubt there'd be a recall as recalls are generally for safety defects or non-compliance w/FMVSS. Battery capacity loss isn't either of those.

But... Nissan could do something to accommodate. We've already hypothesized about what that should/might include.

 

[davekern]

Here is the information for wiki:

case number: 9247277
date of report: 8/27/2012
date of manufacture: 4/13/2012 (I think)

 

[vrwl]

Here is the information for wiki:

case number: 9247277
date of report: 8/27/2012
date of manufacture: 4/13/2012 (I think)

Dave, your car's manufacture date can be found on the metal plate inside the driver's door on the car's frame. It's usually a month and a year but no day... so something like 6/11. Plus, if you've owned it almost 16 months, there's no way it could have been manufactured in 2012.

 

[davekern]

Here is the information for wiki:

case number: 9247277
date of report: 8/27/2012
date of manufacture: 4/13/2012 (I think)

Dave, your car's manufacture date can be found on the metal plate inside the driver's door on the car's frame. It's usually a month and a year but no day... so something like 6/11. Plus, if you've owned it almost 16 months, there's no way it could have been manufactured in 2012.

Yeah, wrote too fast, should have said 4/2011. But that was wrong. I looked on the plate and it is 3/2011.

Dave

 

[SierraQ]

Sadly, I am joining the club too.

Yesterday, I lost a bar.

Sorry to hear about your bar loss.

Replicas of this post seems to be appearing more and more often. Stoaty, are you starting to feel like a funeral home director?

 

[JeremyW]

But... Nissan could do something to accommodate. We've already hypothesized about what that should/might include.

They friggin better. Their reputation in the EV world depends on it. I've stopped recommending the Leaf and imagine nearly all of you are doing the same. I want answers. I want action. I don't want a bad battery problem hampering the EV movement.

Jeremy

 

[TomT]

Yep, until Nissan tells us what they plan to do about the problem, I'm hard-pressed to recommend it...

They friggin better. Their reputation in the EV world depends on it. I've stopped recommending the Leaf and imagine nearly all of you are doing the same. I want answers. I want action. I don't want a bad battery problem hampering the EV movement.

 

[TonyWilliams]

They friggin better. Their reputation in the EV world depends on it. I've stopped recommending the Leaf and imagine nearly all of you are doing the same. I want answers. I want action. I don't want a bad battery problem hampering the EV movement.

Jeremy

Well, they obviously are doing something. Behind the scenes, we know they've brought in outside management of the testing facility in Arizona. I'm going to guess the previous guy did a "carpet dance" when asked why batteries were causing problems.

They are throwing out press releases about new battery deals and "improved" range. Obviously, some of that is just smoke screen to get some attention off the real issues (I don't believe that there will be any bonafide range increase).

The fact that they haven't just popped out an "all is well citizens" letter yet is encouraging, because it might just be sinking in that this is sort of a big deal that will take big action. I really expected just the usual smoke blown up our six by now. Even OrientExpress has toned down from regularly telling us all how stupid we are.

Who knows? My view hasn't changed on the battery issue. They knew the problem / gamble, and they lost. Somebody at Nissan had to sign off on selling this car in hot climates (who might now be looking for work... see first paragraph). It was stupid in my opinion. But, it's not JUST hot climates anymore. The heat only aggravated it, as we are no seeing moderate climate cars dropping capacity, some with alarmingly low mileage.

When I think of dumb new technology gambles, the General Motors "Chevrolet Vega" comes to mind. Alcoa sold them on all aluminum cylinder blocks, and they blew oil all day long. There's got to be some others.

 

[Stoaty]

Sadly, I am joining the club too.

Yesterday, I lost a bar.

Sorry to hear about your bar loss.

Replicas of this post seems to be appearing more and more often. Stoaty, are you starting to feel like a funeral home director?

Yes, and the bodies are stacked up so high there is little room left to store them. I may need to hire an assistant just to keep up with the paperwork. :lol:

 

[DaveEV]

They are throwing out press releases about new battery deals and "improved" range.

Nissan themselves haven't made any official (or even unofficial directly attributable to Nissan employee) news regarding battery deals or improved range aside from the heat-pump feature which will reduce cold weather range hit when using heat.

All other news are basically rumors at this point.

 

[Herm]

Well, they obviously are doing something. Behind the scenes, we know they've brought in outside management of the testing facility in Arizona. I'm going to guess the previous guy did a "carpet dance" when asked why batteries were causing problems.

You mean the PR guy from Consumer's Reports that they brought over?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, they obviously are doing something. Behind the scenes, we know they've brought in outside management of the testing facility in Arizona. I'm going to guess the previous guy did a "carpet dance" when asked why batteries were causing problems.

You mean the PR guy from Consumer's Reports that they brought over?

I didn't say that it was going to be a positive outcome for LEAF !!! But, the guy is an engineer, and former Nissan employee.

 

[spooka]

I felt so bad for my 10 bar car, I gave it a wash, buffed it down, shampooed the seats and carpet and made it look AWESOME today. It is ready to hit the road and make a maximum range 60 mile trip in style!

Very depressed about a car I have grow to like a lot over the last year... Just waiting to see how long until it becomes a 9 bar car.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Can you update your location so that people can easily tell at a glance where you're at?

If only the field were mandatory...

 

[cwerdna]

Well, they obviously are doing something. Behind the scenes, we know they've brought in outside management of the testing facility in Arizona. I'm going to guess the previous guy did a "carpet dance" when asked why batteries were causing problems.

You mean the PR guy from Consumer's Reports that they brought over?

Uhh... I wouldn't just call David Champion a "PR guy", per the Businessweek article I cited at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9793" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, he was "senior director of Consumer Reports Auto Test Center".

 

[surfingslovak]

David is undoubtedly a good guy, but I'm not quite convinced about the extent of his EV prowess. Especially when it comes to lithium-ion batteries, which seems to be the Achilles Heel of his new (old) employer's EV program:


Click to open

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TiLoezivo[/youtube]
Click to open

 

[JeremyW]

Was browsing though this old thread from 2010 on Battery Design and Engineering Issues when I found this gem:

I got a chance to drive the Leaf test vehicle in Phoenix. I spoke to two members of the design team and 3 members of the test team from Arizona. They have been testing the vehicle all over Arizona and their test track is on the west side of Phoenix near Sun City. They said that all of the cooling is conductive with no active cooling. When I asked about temperatures inside the battery, they replied that the temperature only rose 1 or 2 degrees above the ambient temperature. They did admit that the high temperatures reduced the mileage by 10 to 20%.They also said that they were doing tests in Japan's northern island of Hokkaido this last winter. So they have done an excellent job of testing performance under extreme environmental conditions.

Jeremy

 

[surfingslovak]

Was browsing though this old thread from 2010 on Battery Design and Engineering Issues when I found this gem

Good find! Wonder what exactly they meant by reduced mileage. LeafHopper posted a number of interesting things on MNL, but he has not been active lately. Wonder if he ended up getting a LEAF or not. Among other things, he referenced an SAE article titled Battery guru a skeptic about Leaf, Volt batteries by Menahem Anderman, which was considered overly pessimistic at the time. Although I wouldn't have believed it as recently as four months ago, Anderman's comments on LEAF's battery durability seem to be at least partially correct. Let's see how the Volt does in Phoenix longer-term (fingers crossed).

Without proper cooling technology, "a pouch cell design with a manganese chemistry will perform very poorly” in hot climates, said Anderman of the Leaf battery. “Can you expect 10 years from the battery? Definitely not in Phoenix, I’m pretty sure not in L.A., and I’m not sure about San Francisco and Atlanta.”

Regarding the Leaf battery's life-cycle performance in Phoenix, he told AEI later: “If it lasts three years, I’d be surprised.”

Ironically, individual pouch cells are good at dissipating heat. However, when such cells are packaged tightly together, as in the Leaf, that advantage is lost, Anderman said. “There is a very poor thermal characteristic in this type of integration” of the battery into the vehicle.

Contacted by AEI for comment, Nissan North America Manager of Technology Communications Colin Price stated: “We are confident [the cells] will dissipate heat well and anticipate the battery pack will have 70 to 80% of capacity left after 10 years of automotive use.” He noted that the Leaf battery pack can be serviced to the cell level, so a single cell failure does not equate to battery pack failure.)