Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DaveEV]

Question: I have the vehicle set to charge only upto 80%. After the car has completed charging, when checking the LEAF website, It only lists a 75% charge. Is this due to the decreased capacity?

My Leaf at 80% charge used to show 10 SOC bars and 83% charge. Now it shows 9 SOC bars and 75% charge, so I am expecting to lose a capacity bar anytime now.

80% Charge only 9 bars?

So umm.. from what I gather on the warranty we're all pretty much screwed in terms of warranty because of the exclusion of being able to charge to 100%. And thats why were all left holding our shifters in the cold..

There is nothing in the warranty that says charging to 100% will void it. The only thing that one can do to void their warranty is to keep their LEAF for 24 hours at temperatures of 120F+. Luckily, that is just about physically impossible in all of the US unless you happen to park in an oven (which might be possible in the right insulated, solar heated box in Phoenix).

Charging to 100% and letting it sit at high SOC for long periods of time will increase the rate of capacity loss. But since gradual capacity loss is explicitly excluded under the warranty, I simply would not worry about it for a lease unless you really want to make sure you keep as much range as possible for the duration of your lease.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Thank you for clarifying I read the exculsion incorrectly..
So umm.. from what I gather on the warranty we're all pretty much screwed in terms of warranty because of the exclusion of being able to charge to 100%. And thats why were all left holding our shifters in the cold..

100% is fine. LEAVING the car charged at 100% for long periods of time; bad. So, we're not "all screwed" on that. The difficult part may be potentially convincing a judge (and Nissan would just settle anyway, so it wouldn't come to this) that the car was sold:

1. ... in hot places like Phoenix that the manufacturer knew would NOT survive the heat and did NOT tell the consumer of these shortcomings.

2. That 20%, 30%, or more reduction IN RANGE (not battery capacity, which is not covered) in one year is a faulty vehicle.

3. That the entire industry knew that these batteries would not likely survive without TMS in Phoenix, and that obviously whatever testing Nissan would present is faulty (accelerated tests don't equal long term real life).

Of note is that by the time any civil tort claim were adjudicated, there may then be hundreds of bad battery cars in Phoenix. There are only 400 LEAF's in the whole state of Arizona.O

Like I've posted earlier, if I were Nissan, I'd blame it all on global warming

If you have a lease, and the range (and predicted range loss of 20-50%?) at the end of you four year lease is OK for you, then I wouldnt worry at all when you turn it in. Remember, all capacity losses are "normal". Just stay within the limits of the owner's manual.

If it's not going to work, I would suggest looking at turning in the lease, as at least on owner has. Call Nissan Financial for details on your possibilities.

 

[planet4ever]

OK, thanks for the helpful clarification. I kept thinking it didn't make sense, but in the time I've had the car I've never noticed those small bars. (I just thought they were to indicate when the available charge got too low, since the bottom two are red.)

As you may now realize, the red bars mean that when your battery capacity drops to two bars, the battery is a piece of junk. They have nothing at all to do with the bottom two available charge bars, which are blue and white, not red. If you are afraid to use those two available charge bars then you are throwing away nearly 1/3 of your battery capacity.

Ray

 

[ydnas7]

....The difficult part may be potentially convincing a judge (and Nissan would just settle anyway, so it wouldn't come to this) ....

I would not be so sanguine about Nissan settling this.

IF Nissan's perspective view is ownership = responsibility
then leasing the vehicle = Nissan's ownership of battery = Nissan is responsible for battery
Vs owning the vehicle = Users ownership of battery = Users is responsible for battery

IF that is Nissan's view, then as a Matter of Principle, they may not settle...

 

[cyellen]

Got back from vacation last night and was greeted by my official two bar loss...after parking the car at the airport for 12 days (not fourteen, so at least I could start her up again!), I suppose the heat there was just too much for her to take. I heard through the grapevine that we had some super hot days here while I was gone, and while she was covered in the garage, I'm sure it was still toasty in there.

I'll call NOGASEV later today to update my case. She has about 11600 miles now versus the 10200 when the first bar disappeared. The first bar was lost on June 8. Since then, I've not done much of anything differently, except for staring at the temperature gauge more and more (there really isn't anything I can do about the heat except for moving ).

On top of it all, the Blink decided that it was done with me too...totally blank screen, won't reboot, won't provide charge to the car. L1 for me! Score another one for the reliability and dependability of EVs. Wish it weren't true, but I'm very disenchanted right now.

 

[Stoaty]

Got back from vacation last night and was greeted by my official two bar loss...after parking the car at the airport for 12 days (not fourteen, so at least I could start her up again!), I suppose the heat there was just too much for her to take. I heard through the grapevine that we had some super hot days here while I was gone, and while she was covered in the garage, I'm sure it was still toasty in there.

Wiki updated. Thanks for the report, sorry to hear about the loss.

 

[TomT]

I wonder how many more we'll have after this from the Los Angeles area... "Lancaster sets new heat streak record -- 22 days of 100+ degree temps in a row."

I have a weather station here at home (http://www.ghweather.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false and it shows that we broke 100 degrees for 11 days in a row, with a number of days of an average daily temperature of over 90 degrees... My garage had been averaging about 89 degrees during this period and that is with an insulated garage door, two turbine roof ventilators, and a number of floor level vents in the outside wall...

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I wonder how many more we'll have after this from the Los Angeles area... "Lancaster sets new heat streak record -- 22 days of 100+ degree temps in a row."

Ouch! I didn't realize a record had been set, but our NEM electric bill came yesterday and showed our highest consumption in 14 years!

Last night I joined the "Lost a bar" club. Here are my basics:
Location: Lancaster, Ca
Miles: 15600
Months: 14

Sorry to hear this, Chris. I am particularly sorry because it looks like your climate is substantially more benign than the Phoenix et al. hot desert climate that has claimed most of the previous capacity bars.

Well, it may not be "substantially more benign" here in this corner of the Mojave Desert where Chris and a few other of us Leaf drivers live, but it may be in Lancaster, Pa. :mrgreen: You are right, however, that while our weather has regularly been in the 100s for the past month, it is not - thankfully - as intense as Phoenix and Tucson.

We have not yet lost a capacity bar (14,500 miles in 11 months), but we have experienced occasional 7TB days this summer when local temps reached 106-108F. These same days coincided with the only three overnight 80% charges to 9 bars and 75% per Carwings. A couple of 100% charges when overnight temps dropped into the mid-80s seems to have gotten our normal 80% charging back to 10 bars and 80%, but that 10th bar disappears after only 2-3 downhill miles with the A/C on. Perhaps vainly, we are hoping not to lose a capacity bar before cooler weather returns.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Got back from vacation last night and was greeted by my official two bar loss... ).

.... Wish it weren't true, but I'm very disenchanted right now.

Sorry to hear. With many more months of ridiculous heat left in Phoenix (I gauge the temp over there by how many Arizona plates we have over here), I suspect a third bar loss is in store for you soon.

I do understand how you feel. My disconnect is that for any reasonable person reviewing this, it becomes clear that Nissan screwed up on a few major decisions almost from day one of accepting the government money in 2009.

It reminds me of space missions that failed spectacularly. Apollo 1, Apollo 13, and the space shuttles all had fatal flaws (Apollo 13 got lucky and made it home) that were designed in many years previous. Looking back on any of those failures, it seems obvious AFTER the fact how to correct them, but many times, there was plenty of warning then that folks just didn't listen to.

 

[ALLWATZ]

There is nothing in the warranty that says charging to 100% will void it. The only thing that one can do to void their warranty is to keep their LEAF for 24 hours at temperatures of 120F+. Luckily, that is just about physically impossible in all of the US unless you happen to park in an oven (which might be possible in the right insulated, solar heated box in Phoenix).

Just wondering how Nissan could prove that the car was at 120F+ for 24 hours. Or for that matter any temp that the car may be at. This would be a warranty issue that would be undefendable for them. When someone gets to a 4 or 5 bar loss (and the car is no longer a functioning vehicle for all intensive purposes), maybe they could pop it into a paint spray booth and turn the temp on (usually associated with baking the paint dry) and we could get some data points. Or better, maybe Nissan could do this and learn a thing or two.

 

[Volusiano]

Just wondering how Nissan could prove that the car was at 120F+ for 24 hours. Or for that matter any temp that the car may be at. This would be a warranty issue that would be undefendable for them. When someone gets to a 4 or 5 bar loss (and the car is no longer a functioning vehicle for all intensive purposes), maybe they could pop it into a paint spray booth and turn the temp on (usually associated with baking the paint dry) and we could get some data points. Or better, maybe Nissan could do this and learn a thing or two.

I don't see why Nissan wouldn't be able to design the LEAF to continuously record battery temperature if they want to and store it somewhere, even on the battery pack itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the annual battery test already collects that information, but they just choose to withhold it from owners and keep it for themselves.

 

[vrwl]

I don't see why Nissan wouldn't be able to design the LEAF to continuously record battery temperature if they want to and store it somewhere, even on the battery pack itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the annual battery test already collects that information, but they just choose to withhold it from owners and keep it for themselves.

But the battery temp does not always equal the ambient temp.

 

[edatoakrun]

"drees"
...The only thing that one can do to void their warranty is to keep their LEAF for 24 hours at temperatures of 120F+. Luckily, that is just about physically impossible in all of the US unless you happen to park in an oven (which might be possible in the right insulated, solar heated box in Phoenix)...

Actually, I'd expect this is quite possible to do, If you a have a well-insulated, but poorly ventilated garage in Phoenix, and leave the garage closed, over the hottest Summer days and nights.

It would depend on how much heat was being introduced to the garage, by solar (windows), appliances (especially a water heater), and miscellaneous the other heat sources, such as vehicle battery charging, lights, tool chargers, etc.

And it won't help, of course, if you have an ATM equipped BEV/PHEV garage heater parked next to your LEAF...

 

[Volusiano]

It would depend on how much heat was being introduced to the garage, by solar (windows), appliances (especially a water heater), and miscellaneous the other heat sources, such as vehicle battery charging, lights, tool chargers, etc.

Don't forget the biggest heat source, another hot ICE car or two parked in the same garage at the end of a daily commute. You just drive them in the garage, close the door, and trap all that heat from the engines inside all night long.

 

[Volusiano]

I don't see why Nissan wouldn't be able to design the LEAF to continuously record battery temperature if they want to and store it somewhere, even on the battery pack itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the annual battery test already collects that information, but they just choose to withhold it from owners and keep it for themselves.

But the battery temp does not always equal the ambient temp.

True, but there's no reason why they can't record ambient temperature, too, since they do have ambient temperature sensor(s) as well.

 

[vrwl]

I don't see why Nissan wouldn't be able to design the LEAF to continuously record battery temperature if they want to and store it somewhere, even on the battery pack itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the annual battery test already collects that information, but they just choose to withhold it from owners and keep it for themselves.

But the battery temp does not always equal the ambient temp.

True, but there's no reason why they can't record ambient temperature, too, since they do have ambient temperature sensor(s) as well.

Good point.

 

[SierraQ]

There is nothing in the warranty that says charging to 100% will void it. The only thing that one can do to void their warranty is to keep their LEAF for 24 hours at temperatures of 120F+. Luckily, that is just about physically impossible in all of the US unless you happen to park in an oven (which might be possible in the right insulated, solar heated box in Phoenix).

Just wondering how Nissan could prove that the car was at 120F+ for 24 hours. Or for that matter any temp that the car may be at. This would be a warranty issue that would be undefendable for them. When someone gets to a 4 or 5 bar loss (and the car is no longer a functioning vehicle for all intensive purposes), maybe they could pop it into a paint spray booth and turn the temp on (usually associated with baking the paint dry) and we could get some data points. Or better, maybe Nissan could do this and learn a thing or two.

Likely this stuff is logged in the battery reports we don't see. It may not prove 24 consecutive hours but it probably keeps a count of some kind. Might also be in the Carwings data. Nissan likely wanted every scrap of info they could get since this was so new, hence I suspect they logged just about everything somewhere. I also think that particular exclusion was meant to protect them from some fool throwing the car with its battery into a paint oven overnight and that would probably be easy to prove--a severely damaged battery but a nice new shiny paint job.

 

[surfingslovak]

Just wondering how Nissan could prove that the car was at 120F+ for 24 hours. Or for that matter any temp that the car may be at. This would be a warranty issue that would be undefendable for them. When someone gets to a 4 or 5 bar loss (and the car is no longer a functioning vehicle for all intensive purposes), maybe they could pop it into a paint spray booth and turn the temp on (usually associated with baking the paint dry) and we could get some data points. Or better, maybe Nissan could do this and learn a thing or two.

I don't see why Nissan wouldn't be able to design the LEAF to continuously record battery temperature if they want to and store it somewhere, even on the battery pack itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the annual battery test already collects that information, but they just choose to withhold it from owners and keep it for themselves.

Please have a look at Phil's old post about the seekrit battery data report. The following is likely what you are looking for:

MAXBATTEMPRN    8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
MAXBATTEMPRN    8       03D4    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

MAXBATTEMPCG    8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
MAXBATTEMPCG    8       00D7    0001    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

BATTEMPRN       8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
BATTEMPRN       8       03D5    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

BATTEMPCG       8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
BATTEMPCG       8       00D8    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

AVEVSP          7       -10     10-20   20-30   30-40   40-50   50-60   60-
AVEVSP          7       00DD    0096    00A6    00A5    00A5    0039    000E

 

[palmermd]

The following is likely what you are looking for:

MAXBATTEMPRN    8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
MAXBATTEMPRN    8       03D4    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

MAXBATTEMPCG    8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
MAXBATTEMPCG    8       00D7    0001    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

BATTEMPRN       8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
BATTEMPRN       8       03D5    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

BATTEMPCG       8       -35     35-40   40-45   45-50   50-55   55-60   60-65   65-
BATTEMPCG       8       00D8    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000    0000

AVEVSP          7       -10     10-20   20-30   30-40   40-50   50-60   60-
AVEVSP          7       00DD    0096    00A6    00A5    00A5    0039    000E

So this car was charged 216 times. All but once it was below 35c and one time 35c-40c. The car has also take 981 trips, where the battery was always below 35c. Average speeds for those trips was 10mph:221, 10-20mph:150, 20-30:166, 30-40:165, 40-50:165, 50-60:57, 60+:14

I'd love to have access to this data for my car...

 

[surfingslovak]

I'd love to have access to this data for my car...

Me too! I imagine that Phil has been quite busy lately. If memory serves, he polled the forum a while ago to gauge the interest level in a detailed battery report and its pricing.