Buying a 2011 Leaf @ $13,000 or Leasing 2013 @ $170/Month??

[daniel3ooo]

^^Thanks. I still have so much to learn about this car!

Can anyone take a minute and look at the car I am currently considering, the gauges more importantly, and tell me if there is any information you can give me from the looking at the gauges? The owner says the car is not fully charged. But it looks like on the right side, there is only 9-10 bars??

EDIT: dont buy my leaf!

 

[RonDawg]

No that is a full 12 bar car. The skinny bars on the outer edge of the circle represent capacity, and will disappear as the battery loses that. The "missing" bars you see in that photo are the used up bars for the charge status.

This is what a gauge on a car with battery capacity loss will look like:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:Scott_3_bars_s.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I also edited my previous post with some add'l info.

 

[daniel3ooo]

Thanks for the confirmation Rondawg! I'm leaning towards the purchase. Hoping the car will be at least serviceable (ie drive around town and whatnot) in the future.

 

[mbender]

The capacity bars are the little bars to the right of the long bars near the Guess-o-meter ("75") on the right, and it does look like it has all 12, even though at 36k it is likely to lose 1 and then more soon.

4.3 miles/kWh is a respectable number and suggests that much of the driving was done at lower speeds &or low acceleration. It would also explain why it still has 12 bars capacity.

Re: saving money by not charging at home, you'll be saving so much in "fuel" with the LEAF, as well as being able to charge at work, I really don't think you mind paying an extra $10 a month to PG&E.

I'd still be more inclined to go with the 2013 lease, mostly for the "payment plan" but also not having to sell it at the end, but if the lump sum payment isn't an issue, this is not bad. I hope you've "reserved" your option to buy with the seller though, lest someone here swoops in and nabs it before you!

 

[Wennfred]

Only problem I see is the Power Blue, can't do it, has to be Red.

But yes I agree, I would snatch this one up quickly and then paint it candy apple red.


Fred

 

[RonDawg]

Thanks for the confirmation Rondawg! I'm leaning towards the purchase. Hoping the car will be at least serviceable (ie drive around town and whatnot) in the future.

It looks like a good bargain. However with any used car purchase there are caveats. The usual ones about checking for accident damage, flood damage, etc. apply, and it would not hurt to pull a CarFax report on it. Like with any used car purchase, it would not hurt to ask the seller if you can take the car to a Nissan dealer and pay them to have it inspected to make sure there is nothing wrong with the car.

With the Leaf specifically, in addition to trying to verify the actual battery health using one of the devices listed earlier, ask the seller to show proof that the annual battery check was done at the Nissan dealer. This is a requirement to keep the battery warranties in effect. This battery check is to be done shortly after the yearly anniversary of the car's sale or lease, and the first two are free so there's no reason for the seller to have neglected this. As the car is not quite 3 years old, the third battery check which will have to be paid for was likely not yet done. You will need to do this for as long as the battery warranties are in effect, or when you decide to get rid of the car, whichever comes first.

 

[daniel3ooo]

Thanks Mbender, Wennfred, and Rondawg..I just did an edit to remove the link but I'm sure someone could easily find it if they wanted to haha!

Blue really isnt my first choice in color but I guess its unique

 

[mbender]

You'll be amazed at how many other unique blue LEAFs you start to see roaming around the Bay Area ;-)

( leasing a "Blue Ocean" 2012... )

 

[beachfitrob]

That's a pretty good price. I got an SL with 8100 miles, QC, 'solar' package, and a few minor dings for $16k. Downside: already had lost 2 bars but it's a FL/TX car and was a rental for 5100 miles. I've already put around 1300 on it in under a month, so I'm banking on the battery warranty getting me the 'hot' battery. I will drive it every chance I get.

I'd say 75% of my driving is highway, or at least 50% so that will probably accelerate the process. I do get 4.0+ kwh/average tho.

I made some minor mods to help the range: LEDs in the parking/license plate lights (yeah, 15 watts less saved probably at night but it looks better and I run parking in the daytime usually), heated seat cushion which saves a ton of power (gets uncomfortably war with outside temps in the 40s on low) and my tires are set at 40psi.

I can go right at 42 miles, of which 30-35 I'd guess is at highway speed, and use 60% SOC. I charge at work, so it's not an issue. Thankfully, gas is still cheap in Texas so I have yet to not get a spot at work. Today, we have 5 of 6 filled though so it may get interesting. The other day I went at 70 and 75 MPH indicated starting with a 100% charge and did not get the low battery warning in 'cold' temps going the 41.x miles. IIRC I might have used the heater/AC some.

It appears I have a comfortable margin for now with two bars lost, and I'm planning on being eligible for the 'hot' battery voucher.

 

[Stoaty]

The 2013 models will allow you to turn off the heater; 2011/2012 models will come on automatically if the outside temp is too low, but there is a modification that you can purchase or DIY to allow the same function.

That isn't accurate. The heater will not come on automatically for the 2011/2012 models except in the following circumstances:

--temperature in the car is less than 60 degrees
--fan is turned on

In other words, you can't run fan only if the temperature in the Leaf is less than 60 degrees F.

 

[daniel3ooo]

Dang it I just realized the 2011s only have the 3.3kw charger

I think I might have to lease the 2013 after all. I don't like the idea of having double the charge time. Are there any pros to having a 3.3?

 

[mbender]

I don't think so, and I bet that the 6.x kW is a little more efficient, to boot. i.e., more of the "juice" that comes out of the wall actually makes it into the battery. Others may chime in with confirmation and numbers. This is another reason I'd be inclined to go with the newer car (and lease)!

 

[smkettner]

I doubt charge time is a huge issue at home and work. 6.0 is not really twice as fast as the 3.3 and the top 20% of battery will be about the same as charge tapers at the top.
Four hours per day would probably be plenty of time even with 3.3 charging. Then maybe one hour at home when needed.

 

[RonDawg]

There are no "pros" to having the 3.3 kW charger but it's not as much of a "con" as you might think either. As mentioned earlier, if your charging is primarily at home overnight, you won't notice a difference. A Leaf with a 3.3 charger takes about 8 hours to fully charge a fully depleted battery; the faster charger cuts that to about 5 or so hours.

Where the faster charger is helpful:

• when you need a fast turnaround time (for example, spouses on different shifts sharing the same car), AND you have an EVSE at home of at least 27.5 amps
• when you are using a public L2 (240 volt) charging station to give yourself a boost to make your destination, the faster charger means you will be back on the road faster

Having a faster on board charger is not of any help on L1 (120 volt) charging nor when using the Quick Charge port. These types of charging will proceed at the same rate. Also, as I mentioned above, in order to to take advantage of the faster charger, the EVSE must supply 6.6 kW (27.5 amps at 240 volts). If your home's electrical system can only support an EVSE of 20 amps or 16 amps, or worse only 120 volt charging, you won't get the full benefit.

 

[daniel3ooo]

Anyone have any thoughts on the lease deal on a leftover 2013:

2013 Two Year Lease
SV w/QC
12k/year
170+tax per month
3000 drive off

 

[RonDawg]

Anyone have any thoughts on the lease deal on a leftover 2013:

2013 Two Year Lease
SV w/QC
12k/year
170+tax per month
3000 drive off

At 30 cents/mile seems a bit on the high side, though I understand that Nissan is not as generous with incentives as they have been in 2013.

What is the Capitalized Cost (price of the car as if you were going to buy it yourself)? TrueCar.com says the car should be selling (using a random San Francisco zip code) for a bit over $31k even with the QC option. As you largely cannot negotiate the money factor (interest rate) and the residual (depreciated value), you should bargain just as hard on the Capitalized Cost as much as you would if you were buying the car outright.

Do you work for a company that is on Nissan's VPP list? If so that will get you an extra grand off, but don't disclose that until after the numbers are finalized, otherwise the dealer might just jack up the price another grand to make up for it.

Also, try to get the drive off (Capitalized Cost Reduction) as low as possible, even if it means the monthly payment will be higher. The reason for that is if the car becomes a total loss, you will not be refunded the drive off amount. At minimum try to roll the tax on the Capitalized Cost Reduction and the DMV fees (about $1000-1400) into the monthly payment.

 

[CayenneSJLEAFy]

@daniel3ooo--great price, but I'd be very careful. Where in the Bay Area are you? The micro-climates in the Bay Area make a huge difference on the battery degradation of the battery pack.

I live in South San Jose. I just traded in my '11 LEAF for a '14 Volt. My car had 44K miles on it. No issues or problems with our LEAF for the last 29 months. It was very well built.

I sold it because of the rapid battery degradation. I lost my first bar at 35K miles, and that prompted me to get the LEAF DD device to track battery temperature, the # of GIDs left, and cell status. Used to QC once a month--stopped when I lost that first bar on May 2013.

Car was driven frequently, averaging 1500 to 1600 miles a month. Parked in the shade throughout the year, to limit solar radiation. Last summer, I parked outside overnight to charge at 120V, since the garage keeps the heat.

The range dropped significantly (especially in the winter). When new, the LEAF got 281 GIDs. By end of summer, 2013, I was down to 220 GIDs (lost 22%). Right before I traded in the car, I was down to 210. When I traded in, I'm still showing 1 lost bar, but I'm on the border of losing 2, I'm sure. At the rate I'm driving, I'll go past 60K before all 4 bars go.

Of course some of the lower GIDs may be due to the drop in temps in winter, but despite a few warm spells this winter, the GID count (and aH rate) is steadily heading downward. Trying to drive on the slow side (4.4 miles/kwh), I get 45 miles before I hit LBW, and 52 before I get VLBW. Assumption is that 55 is Turtle.

In a few months, I very likely will not be able to commute in this car, as I'll be hitting VLBW on a regular basis. I'd rather trade in now before dealers start picking up on this trend, or before all the leases come back. I don't want to buy a plug-in or battery electric during late spring or summer again (and risk having the new car sit on a lot in the broiling summer sun to degrade the battery).

So my advice is to use the LEAF Spy or other Android tools, or find someone who has a LEAF DD tool nearby (it plugs into the CAN Bus under the steering column).

Scary thing is that my new Volt can go 44 miles (mixed highway and city driving with fan on) on battery before the ICE kicks on.

Good luck.

Ivan Jue

 

[alcalira]

If I recall correctly, you have to include Premium Package on the 2013 SV to get the around view camera. Without Premium the 2013 SV has no camera whatsoever.

The 2011 SL has the camera (not around view), auto headlights, quickcharge, homelink garage door opener, and cargo cover.

A deciding factor for me would be whether you could get the 2013 on a 36 month lease at a good payment and driveoff <$2500. If so you qualify for the $2500 CA state rebate which would reduce your 3-year cost by that amount and probably make the new car less expensive than the depreciation on the used one.

I agree the 2011/2012 have been more trouble-free than the 2013, but with new car warranty coverage at least any repairs will be free.

You probably can't make a wrong decision here. Either sounds like a reasonable choice.

 

[Valdemar]

A warning about buying used: As it was previously discussed elsewhere you can have a car with a significantly degraded battery showing all 12 capacity bars if the battery management system was recently reset. It may take up to a month before the indicator will settle on a more or less correct value, and before that even the aftermarket tools that can read the battery health data from the CAN bus will report optimistic numbers.

Range test is the only true method to assess remaining battery capacity. I suspect the seller is eager to get rid of the car, so he or she may be willing to spend an hour with you driving around. Make sure to reset energy economy on the dashboard before the test and the trip computer. Record total distance from full to the first low battery warning (a.k.a. LBW), and the reported energy economy for this trip in miles/kWh. Post the numbers here and we'll know more about remaining capacity.

 

[Valdemar]

There are no "pros" to having the 3.3 kW charger

There is one actually, you can buy a used Blink EVSE for peanuts and use it without worrying the J-plug will melt :lol: