Bought a 2011 Leaf on 03/15/2015 with a "new pack", but...

[kuri]

Fair enough... hard to search inside the images for the VIN

This isn't my first internet rodeo, my friend

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's how I would proceed:

1) compile most, but not all the data against the dealer in writing. I would specifically leave out the recorded messages.

2) Get an attorney. Yes, it will cost a bit of money.

3) Meet with dealership management, your attorney, and yourself to reach a mutual agreement based on the facts.

4) The dealership will promptly tell you that you were NOT told that it had a new battery (guaranteed)

5) Write up a synopsis of the meeting and send to dealer certified mail, signature required. In letter, once again present your case (less recordings) and the results of meeting

6) File lawsuit, naming dealership and individuals who told you that it had a new battery

7) Demand all legal fees, blah, blah, and negotiate a settlement (return car or new battery)

8) Prepare for court if necessary, and have that recording ready to go (assuming it has the required disclaimers to record in California). Don't settle for anything that doesn't make you "whole in every way".

* attorney fees
* administrative costs
* car rentals for substandard car
* traveling costs
* any other remedies permitted by California law

9) You are looking for a settlement so that the situation isn't dragged out for YEARS. Your attorney will advise.

10) Trump Card - video showing exactly how dealers reset the battery degradation, and a bunch of expert witnesses to present it. I will volunteer my time if you get to this point.

 

[kuri]

Here's how I would proceed:

1) compile most, but not all the data against the dealer in writing. I would specifically leave out the recorded messages.

2) Get an attorney. Yes, it will cost a bit of money.

3) Meet with dealership management, your attorney, and yourself to reach a mutual agreement based on the facts.

4) The dealership will promptly tell you that you were NOT told that it had a new battery (guaranteed)

5) Write up a synopsis of the meeting and send to dealer certified mail, signature required. In letter, once again present your case (less recordings) and the results of meeting

6) File lawsuit, naming dealership and individuals who told you that it had a new battery

7) Demand all legal fees, blah, blah, and negotiate a settlement (return car or new battery)

8) Prepare for court if necessary, and have that recording ready to go (assuming it has the required disclaimers to record in California). Don't settle for anything that doesn't make you "whole in every way".

* attorney fees
* administrative costs
* car rentals for substandard car
* traveling costs
* any other remedies permitted by California law

9) You are looking for a settlement so that the situation isn't dragged out for YEARS. Your attorney will advise.

10) Trump Card - video showing exactly how dealers reset the battery degradation, and a bunch of expert witnesses to present it. I will volunteer my time if you get to this point.

This is very very good advice, and I very much appreciate your offer of evidence, but I really don't see it getting to that point. Every phone call I made to them was through their main phone number found right on their website, which begins every single call with "This call may be recorded for quality assurance". If necessary, I can also subpoena a copy of their employee handbook which I can virtually guarantee you has a clause in it about their phone calls and activity on company time and company equipment being monitored or recorded. There's no possible way they can argue that they weren't aware of, or didn't give permission for, the call to be recorded.

That aside, in reading the CA laws regarding recording (and speaking with my company's legal department about it), it also states that it only applies if there's a reasonable expectation of privacy for the conversation. The sales person sits in a bullpen with many other salespeople, and I sit in a cube farm with many other employees. There's no expectation of privacy to be had anyway, so it's a rather moot issue even if the announcement and handbook isn't enough to cover it.

At the end of the day, I'm going to wait until I have a hard quote from the other dealership, and I think I'm going to use that as my proof to file suit. I'm not giving them another chance to screw with me. They've already proven to me they're willing to be dishonest, so I have no reason to expect they'd do anything but just reset the BCM again and try to tell me I got a new battery "this time".

 

[pkulak]

This really is the new rolling back the odometer. It's a real shame that lots of people are going to have to get screwed before the law catches up. How many years did dealers tamper with odometers before legislators caught on and wrote a half dozen new laws?

I may be buying a used Leaf soon myself, and it's going to be a hassle, but I'll be taking it on an 80-mile test drive before I buy it. Or a 45-mile test drive.

 

[TickTock]

but I'll be taking it on an 80-mile test drive before I buy it. Or a 45-mile test drive.

Good luck getting a dealer to go along with it. I would buy or borrow a gidometer. Gids don't lie. SOH can lie for up to a day, bars up to six months but I've never seen a degraded battery report high gids on a full charge - even after BMS reset.

 

[kuri]

I would buy or borrow a gidometer. Gids don't lie. SOH can lie for up to a day, bars up to six months but I've never seen a degraded battery report high gids on a full charge - even after BMS reset.

This is where I screwed up. I didn't know LeafSpy existed, or I'd have bought the bluetooth adapter and taken it with me when we went to go look at them. I was just too excited at the idea of getting my first all electric and it overrode my good judgement. That was 100% my fault, I will be the first to admit that. Next time I won't make that mistake, that's for damned sure.

 

[ishiyakazuo]

Gids don't lie.

Am I the only one who read this line and thought "someone needs to make a parody song (and perhaps video) of Shakira's 'Hips Don't Lie' with this title?" It would be THE video on how to buy a used LEAF.

 

[mwalsh]

Gids don't lie.

True. But Nissan will still refuse to accept them (and anything else from the various non-Nissan data collection devices) as evidence of there being something wrong with a battery pack.

 

[kuri]

But Nissan will still refuse to accept them

I think his point is that if you're going to buy a used Leaf, you should check that before doing anything else. Had I done that and saw that a full charge on the "brand new" battery was only 185-190 GIDs, it would have been an immediate red flag and I could have (and would have) just walked away and gone to another dealer.

 

[kuri]

Can anyone point me towards any documentation that outlines the functions of the "Inverter control unit" or the "Intelligent Power Distribution Module" ?

I just talked to them again, and now they're trying to claim that since they replaced those, it's the same thing as replacing the battery, so they didn't really mislead me, it was just a misunderstanding. I think we all know that's a load of bullshit, but I need to find some proof that there's no way that could in any way be considered the same thing.

 

[Slow1]

Can anyone point me towards any documentation that outlines the functions of the "Inverter control unit" or the "Intelligent Power Distribution Module" ?

I just talked to them again, and now they're trying to claim that since they replaced those, it's the same thing as replacing the battery, so they didn't really mislead me, it was just a misunderstanding. I think we all know that's a load of bullshit, but I need to find some proof that there's no way that could in any way be considered the same thing.

Don't allow them to sidetrack the discussion. Try to focus on the basic, simple facts - you were lead to believe the battery was significantly better than it really is. Evidence to this fact are the 12 capacity bars when new, and their misleading statements put you in a position of believing the battery was new or like-new. Reality is you are losing bars quickly and not getting range.

If they are confused about what is the "same as replacing the battery" then perhaps they now know they need to fix their internal training, but that shouldn't be your problem.

 

[kuri]

I agree, and I made it very clear that they represented that the car had a new battery and it doesn't, and that's a big freaking problem. Anything else is immaterial to the issue.

I only want to try to address any of the arguments they may try if this ends up in court. The more information I have to present to a judge to refute their arguments, the more likely I am to show they're just making **** up to try to weasel out of it. If I can find documents that show those components can in no way be considered "replacing the battery", then that's just one more nail in the coffin.

 

[Slow1]

I don't know - if they said anything like "it is the same as replacing the battery" in court (or in admitted statements) then that would go a long way. Even the most ignorant person knows that "replacing the battery" requires... well, replacing the battery.

 

[kuri]

I know that, but every little bit of ammunition helps man. I want to bury these idiots.

 

[timhebb]

I know that, but every little bit of ammunition helps man. I want to bury these idiots.

Just my 2¢ worth, but I'm inclined to agree with Tony that finding an attorney (one who drives a Leaf or other BEV) may be adviseable. The dealership is almost certainly going to have one (or more). At the very least I would spend some time calling attorneys for advice as they are sometimes very generous with their time, even without being formally retained.

But I do understand budget constraints as well. One question I would be sure to ask is if punitive damages are a reasonable possibility.

Best of luck to you!

 

[kuri]

Yeah, I plan to. I think it's going to be pretty difficult to locate someone with the right credentials and that doesn't have a conflict of interest, but I'm going to spend a little time next week and see what I can come up with.

 

[KillaWhat]

Can anyone point me towards any documentation that outlines the functions of the "Inverter control unit" or the "Intelligent Power Distribution Module" ?

I just talked to them again, and now they're trying to claim that since they replaced those, it's the same thing as replacing the battery, so they didn't really mislead me, it was just a misunderstanding. I think we all know that's a load of bullshit, but I need to find some proof that there's no way that could in any way be considered the same thing.

You ar WAY too nice a person.
I would have their BUTT on a platter by now.
You have them by the short and curlys!
I would pay money to be in your shoes.

I'm pretty sure my 4 year old knows what a battery is, so the dealer being "confused" about changing the battery is a load.

Why would they change the "Inverter control unit" or the "Intelligent Power Distribution Module"??
Sounds like something they should have disclosed?

I'm just a small town pizza lawyer, but where I come from, this is called fraud, and that moves it from the auspices of the civil court, to the criminal side.

I would grab the owner of this dealership, tell him you are calling the California? AG's office, and swearing out a fraud complaint, explain that you have the evidence to make it stick, unless they make you whole right f'n now!

Brand New Leaf, plus expenses.
Damages for your time and effort.
The whole shebang.
The criminal side works FOR you.
Impress upon him, that as a criminal complaint, once you push the button, there is no turning back.
No civil settlement.

Have fun with it!!

 

[LeftieBiker]

The short answer to your question about the inverter and inverter control unit is that they do not perform the function of a battery, and replacing them does not increase battery capacity. Thus, you were misinformed. There was no misunderstanding, only a false claim by the dealership staff.

 

[timhebb]

Building on KillaWhat's post above, here's one possible approach.

Meet with GM of dealership. Say you have decided to file criminal fraud charges if not remedied.

Say you bought the vehicle because it was represented as having a new battery. Play brief clip of incriminating recording(s).

Quote cost of a new battery: $6,000 (or current numbers. $6K was the last I heard.) Define difference in range between new and old batteries : X miles per charge.

Mention that the bar display was reset to falsely indicate new battery capacity. Again, note this is fraud. Point out it's the rough equivalent of rolling back odometer. But worse: odometer reading indicates wear and tear, and likelihood of upcoming repairs and maintenance. Lost battery capacity indicates certain loss of range. This is equivalent to siphoning gas from your tank - every time you drive the car.

Give dealership 72 hours to commit to remedial action. If not, you will pull the trigger. Clearly define the remedies you will accept.

Follow through.

 

[kuri]

Got the quote from the other dealer. $6,152.35 for everything, including tax and rental car while it's being done.

Also talked to a family friend that's a partner in a large law firm back home in Chicago and he had some really good advice. I'll be contacting a couple of local attorneys on Tuesday and going from there.