Asking for Lemon Law protection on Monday

[saintyohann]

If I were in the market for a new EV my list would look like saintyohann's, but not in that order.

They weren't in any order. Honestly, none of them are a perfect fit.

Chevy Volt - Not a huge fan of GM, only 4 seats.
Toyota Rav 4 EV - Just paid for solar to be energy neutral, but with this cars lower efficiency I'd need to add some more panels.
Ford Focus Electric - Small trunk space.
Tesla Model S - The leaf barely fits in my garage (width because of installed cabinets) and the Model S is 7-8 inches wider...but there are rumors of a Tesla Store opening where I work and if I could charge there...
Ford C-Max Energi - Small trunk, looks like real-world milage is not close to estimates, need to test.

Am I missing any?

 

[evchels]

If I were in the market for a new EV my list would look like saintyohann's, but not in that order.

They weren't in any order. Honestly, none of them are a perfect fit.

Chevy Volt - Not a huge fan of GM, only 4 seats.
Toyota Rav 4 EV - Just paid for solar to be energy neutral, but with this cars lower efficiency I'd need to add some more panels.
Ford Focus Electric - Small trunk space.
Tesla Model S - The leaf barely fits in my garage (width because of installed cabinets) and the Model S is 7-8 inches wider...but there are rumors of a Tesla Store opening where I work and if I could charge there...
Ford C-Max Energi - Small trunk, looks like real-world milage is not close to estimates, need to test.

Am I missing any?

If you're willing to lease, you might consider a Honda Fit EV. Seats 5, more cargo space than the Focus, very efficient, bit more range than the LEAF (82 EPA combined) and charges twice as fast, and really fun to drive. Being a compliance car, I didn't expect it to be as good as it was, but it's one of my favorites in this generation of cars so far- enough to overlook the "lease only" approach, which I'm obviously not a fan of!

I'd also have more concerns about whether Ford or Toyota provide reasonable support for the Focus or RAV in the long run. By their own admission, neither are terribly interested in anything with a plug- but certainly not BEVs. Fingers crossed Ford gets with it on their PHEVs, but they're pretty reticent.

 

[Herm]

Am I missing any?

The Coda looks interesting.. rugged cells, big pack, high speed charger, conventional ergonomics and trunk.

 

[mwalsh]

The Coda looks interesting.. rugged cells, big pack, high speed charger, conventional ergonomics and trunk.

Horrible to drive.

 

[davewill]

Tesla Model S - The leaf barely fits in my garage (width because of installed cabinets) and the Model S is 7-8 inches wider...but there are rumors of a Tesla Store opening where I work and if I could charge there...

I would think that if you could pony up for for the Tesla, that remodeling the garage cabinets wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Herm]

I'm happy with my Leaf, but I would not recommend it to anyone because of the way Nissan is handling issues like this one.

Likewise.

I hope Nissan management is making note of these complaints

 

[ksnogas2112]

Glad to hear it's working out for you after all the trouble. Like everyone said it was obvious. Good luck with the next purchase!

 

[DaveEV]

Tesla Model S - The leaf barely fits in my garage (width because of installed cabinets) and the Model S is 7-8 inches wider...but there are rumors of a Tesla Store opening where I work and if I could charge there...

Tesla UTC opened last weekend - not sure where you work, but I'd never count on free charging unless it was it a Tesla Supercharger and you charged there an hour when needed. Even then - Teslas like to be plugged in and apparently currently the Model S has a pretty high vampire draw...

If you did go the Tesla route and can't park in the garage, I suggest installing the EVSE outside.

If you're willing to lease, you might consider a Honda Fit EV.

The lease rates seem totally noncompetitive compared to the low $200/mo LEAF/Focus EV lease rates...

 

[RegGuheert]

I received the decision from the BBB today, and it's official, my car is a super lemon.

Nissan will have to buy it back because they could not or would not try to fix it.

Congratulations! Hopefully your saga will be over soon.

 

[evchels]

If you're willing to lease, you might consider a Honda Fit EV.

The lease rates seem totally noncompetitive compared to the low $200/mo LEAF/Focus EV lease rates...

Yup, though the Honda lease includes comp/collision insurance. But figured worth the suggestion if everything up to the Model S was in the running...

 

[surfingslovak]

If you're willing to lease, you might consider a Honda Fit EV.

The lease rates seem totally noncompetitive compared to the low $200/mo LEAF/Focus EV lease rates...

Yup, though the Honda lease includes comp/collision insurance. But figured worth the suggestion if everything up to the Model S was in the running...

I like the Fit, it's fun, and I'm still considering it. The lease is zero down, and the total cost is still comparable to the Nissan and Ford offerings, after you deduct about $50 per month for comprehensive insurance. My personal hangup is the size of the vehicle, and the lack of a CHAdeMO port, which was reportedly included in Japan but not in the US. I like the high overall efficiency, 3-hour recharge time on level 2, and I'm very interested to learn how the lithium titanate battery chemistry will perform in the real world. I understand that it's a compliance car, but I wish Honda would offer it in AZ to have the design properly vetted. ;-)

 

[cwerdna]

Yeah, glad to hear it finally worked out for the OP.

The Coda looks interesting.. rugged cells, big pack, high speed charger, conventional ergonomics and trunk.

Horrible to drive.

Yeah, I drove one at Alt Car Expo. It was probably the 2nd worst car I drove there (at least out of the PHEVs, EVs and FCVs). The drivetrain was surprisingly noisy and the regen behavior was weird. It's a HUGE step backwards in refinement from the Leaf and FFE (which I drove for the first time there as well). And, its styling is crappy for a car its price.

Personally, I don't think Coda's going to stay in business for the full duration of its warranty.

Side note re: the Fit EV: I've never seen one in Nor Cal. In So Cal (besides at the expo), I saw either one or two (possibly the same vehicle) blue Fit EVs while in Irvine the day after the expo. Was driving around in the parking lot of large strip mall that a bunch of us Priuschatters were meeting at.

 

[mwalsh]

Yeah, I drove one at Alt Car Expo. It was probably the 2nd worst car I drove there (at least out of the PHEVs, EVs and FCVs). The drivetrain was surprisingly noisy and the regen behavior was weird. It's a HUGE step backwards in refinement from the Leaf and FFE (which I drove for the first time there as well). And, its styling is crappy for a car its price.

For me it comes down to the braking...they just can't get it right. At least now it's down to scary on the production cars (from suicidal on the pre-production cars).

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tesla Model S - The leaf barely fits in my garage (width because of installed cabinets) and the Model S is 7-8 inches wider...but there are rumors of a Tesla Store opening where I work and if I could charge there...

Not rumor; the UTC Tesla store is open for business (I went there opening day Friday). Also, the Tesla maintenance shop is in Miramar.

 

[saintyohann]

Not rumor; the UTC Tesla store is open for business (I went there opening day Friday). Also, the Tesla maintenance shop is in Miramar.

I also went to the UTC Tesla store on Sunday, even found an ex-coworker working there (but couldn't talk him into a test drive). There is a possibility of another Tesla at the Fashion Valley mall in the future (it is listed in their "careers" page on the Tesla website). If one opened there, and they install charging stations for it, I'd be set.

I've got a 20-mile round trip commute so I'd only have to charge once a week.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Not rumor; the UTC Tesla store is open for business (I went there opening day Friday). Also, the Tesla maintenance shop is in Miramar.

I also went to the UTC Tesla store on Sunday, even found an ex-coworker working there (but couldn't talk him into a test drive). There is a possibility of another Tesla at the Fashion Valley mall in the future (it is listed in their "careers" page on the Tesla website). If one opened there, and they install charging stations for it, I'd be set.

I've got a 20-mile round trip commute so I'd only have to charge once a week.

Their website doesn't show a future Supercharging down here. Lets face it; we can drive anywhere in San Diego in a Tesla, and a Supercharger should be on interstate 5, 15, and 8 leaving the county.

Honestly, for today, I would still strongly suggest the LEAF at a $200-ish lease, with a nice $2500 check from California. I know it's hard to overcome a difficult experience, but you're not getting the same car back, and there's zero guarantee that any of the future battery car companies won't pull the same BS with a problem car (although GM seems to be doing good).

Tesla did leave the bricked Roadsters out in the cold (not sure what they could have done, though).

I'm having a hard time loving the Rav4. I think it's a utilitarian plebe of a car, and it has no warm and fuzzies for me. I think the Honda is not so cute and too small. Ford is too small and too disinterested in the whole EV business. Coda, yuck (I drove it in Monterey). Upcoming Smart, no thanks, except maybe a third town car because they are so cheap.

I don't want a gasoline burner: Volt and Prius out. Wait for BMW? They seem to be having lots of problems with their ActiveE drivetrain and batteries (that are the test mules for the i3). So, dependability might be ok, but no Chademo means no deal. I'm not going to wait another bunch of years for the SAE quick chargers that aren't better than the current expanding infrastructure. Same for an future GM or Mercedes EV.

The Renault Zoe might be a cool car to import !!! That Chameleon charger sounds cool !!!

 

[saintyohann]

Their website doesn't show a future Supercharging down here.

I was thinking one of their regular 10KWh chargers, I could charge to full in an 8-hour shift easily.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Their website doesn't show a future Supercharging down here.

I was thinking one of their regular 10KWh chargers, I could charge to full in an 8-hour shift easily.

But you can use any J1772 at 7.2kW / 7.7kW (30 amps / 32 amps), assuming 240 volts, and not the more typical 208v in commercial areas. Model S comes with a J1772 adapter.

No need to hang around one place. Many of the Roadster Clipper Creek EVSE's have been converted to J1772, and dropped from 70 amps to 30/32 amps.

 

[surfingslovak]

Their website doesn't show a future Supercharging down here.

I was thinking one of their regular 10KWh chargers, I could charge to full in an 8-hour shift easily.

But you can use any J1772 at 7.2kW / 7.7kW (30 amps / 32 amps), assuming 240 volts, and not the more typical 208v in commercial areas. Model S comes with a J1772 adapter.

I don't think that there are any public L2 10 kW charging sites out there, with the exception of RV camps and existing Roadster 75A-capable stations. The ActiveE is allegedly capable of 7.2 kW, and yet we usually see about 5.5 kW draw from the wall. The highest I have ever seen at a public L2 station was 6.4 kW. It might take a while to refill a 85 kWh pack with that kind of power draw. On the upside, Model S is only slightly less efficient than the Leaf, and 75 kWh usable should give you gobs of range.

 

[TonyWilliams]

On the upside, Model S is only slightly less efficient than the Leaf, and 75 kWh usable should give you gobs of range.

Comparing a 40kWh Tesla for $57,400 is going to be one big leap in efficiency and range over the Rav4 EV with the same battery and severely reduced power output motor at $50,800.

But, you can lease a Rav4.

I presume that the real range to be:

LEAF - 4.0 miles per kWh * 21kWh = 84 miles at 65 mph (100 miles advertised)
Tesla - 3.8 miles per kWh * 36kWh = 137 miles at 65 mph (160 miles advertised)
Rav4 - 3.1 miles per kWh * 36kWh = 111 miles at 65 mph (???)

Perhaps both Rav and S will have less degradation with liquid cooled batteries, and certainly reduced capacity loss with heated batteries in cold weather. Presumably, they both have heat pumps already and 10kW chargers.