2013 LEAF Specs, Pricing, Options Released In Japan

[OrientExpress]

I wonder why they would continue to build the Mk1 when the Mk2 should be cheaper to build?

The Mk1s were left hand drive, and had rear fog lights so I suspect that they were for european markets. If you have a production order for a certain trim, that order has to be completed because of all of the parts that were ordered and are in the supply chain.

 

[fotajoye]

Weight reduction would certainly help but at this point, as of the 2013 MY, I don't believe that there is much left to wring out in efficiency... It's already dam close to the theoretical maximum...

Is the Pb battery still used? If so, they could drop some weigh there by replacing it with a Li Ion battery. How about an aluminum rear hatch and spoiler? Aluminum brakes? And, the most expensive of all...an aluminum chassis.

 

[evnow]

And, the most expensive of all...an aluminum chassis.

Or carbon fiber. I think Tom meant, drive train efficiencies. Weight can obviously be reduced.

 

[fotajoye]

And, the most expensive of all...an aluminum chassis.

Or carbon fiber. I think Tom meant, drive train efficiencies. Weight can obviously be reduced.

Savings in the drive train weight...let me see...how about two smaller direct drive motors with an electric differential as close to the drive wheels as possible without affecting the unsprung weight? and how about switching to external charging only?...two motors would delete the need for the mechanic gearing/differential box and give you an efficient way to switch to rear drive. If I had designed the BEV general specs, I would never have required an on-board charger and would have made all chargers external to the car and charged directly with DC.

If you use two smaller motors not only would you save weight but you would reclaim space and reduce the friction in the drive line.

By moving the charger external to the car, you would remove the weight, reclaim space and delete the required cooling equipment.

But, I know these mods would cost a lot, so I must agree that Nissan has removed about all the "drive line" weight they can and still go with the basic design, general specs and production costs.

I look forward to Nissan's new BEVs because I believe you will see better innovation in their future electric cars.

 

[cwerdna]

and how about switching to external charging only?...
If I had designed the BEV general specs, I would never have required an on-board charger and would have made all chargers external to the car and charged directly with DC.
...
By moving the charger external to the car, you would remove the weight, reclaim space and delete the required cooling equipment.

Too late, people already came up with L1 and L2 J1772 using AC charging and an on-board charger. DC power is just so commonly available at home and at work...

One thing that I saw that was interesting on the assembly line was that both the Mark 1 and Mark 2 LEAFs were being manufactured right next to each other. When I asked about that, the answer was that the Mk1 is still being built for some markets for a while longer.

BTW, is the terminology "Mark 1" and "Mark 2" what Nissan's using or is it something you came up with? Is the model code (chassis code?) different on the '13? (Example: 00-03 Maxima was the A33. '11 and '12 Leaf is ZE0, if I'm not mistaken.)

You definitely answered a question I had. I was wondering if the next gen was being built yet. Do you know if the next gen is already available for sale in Japan?

 

[Boomer23]

And, the most expensive of all...an aluminum chassis.

Or carbon fiber. I think Tom meant, drive train efficiencies. Weight can obviously be reduced.

Savings in the drive train weight...let me see...how about two smaller direct drive motors with an electric differential as close to the drive wheels as possible without affecting the unsprung weight? and how about switching to external charging only?...two motors would delete the need for the mechanic gearing/differential box and give you an efficient way to switch to rear drive. If I had designed the BEV general specs, I would never have required an on-board charger and would have made all chargers external to the car and charged directly with DC.

If you use two smaller motors not only would you save weight but you would reclaim space and reduce the friction in the drive line.

By moving the charger external to the car, you would remove the weight, reclaim space and delete the required cooling equipment.

So..... by having all chargers external you would require expensive and complex charger installations for all home charging? It is fun to just focus on optimizing the car itself, though, isn't it?

 

[Ingineer]

BTW, is the terminology "Mark 1" and "Mark 2" what Nissan's using or is it something you came up with? Is the model code (chassis code?) different on the '13? (Example: 00-03 Maxima was the A33. '11 and '12 Leaf is ZE0, if I'm not mistaken.)

I would hazard a guess that it's ZE1.

-Phil

 

[fotajoye]

So..... by having all chargers external you would require expensive and complex charger installations for all home charging? It is fun to just focus on optimizing the car itself, though, isn't it?

No, you should be able to build a nice 300 VDC, 20 amp AC to DC rectifier that works on 240 VAC with the correct Leaf protocol for less then what an EVSE costs you at Home Depot, much less; And it should be about the same size In fact you could build one now that will work through the fast charge connector but there is no point since the standards for using J 1772 AC level 1 and 2 and the on-board charger have already been adopted.

As batteries are improved and larger battery packs become common, local DC charging will make more sense. The current long range Tesla has an on-board 10 kw charger and an 85 kw/h battery pack so the on-board charger must be large enough to charge the pack within a reasonable amount of time. In fact if you want to charge even faster you can add an additional second 10 kw charger, If you used the current Leaf charger, it would take about 20 plus hours to charge it fully so a Tesla on-board charger must be fairly large and heavy, especially if you gang two of them. No wonder they offered fast DC charging right out of the box.

One other advantage for DC chargers, there is not as much heavy copper wire in the car. another reduction in static weight.

Well, I beat all that up pretty badly; I hope you get my point.

 

[edatoakrun]

So..... by having all chargers external you would require expensive and complex charger installations for all home charging? It is fun to just focus on optimizing the car itself, though, isn't it?

No, you should be able to build a nice 300 VDC, 20 amp AC to DC rectifier that works on 240 VAC with the correct Leaf protocol for less then what an EVSE costs you at Home Depot, much less; And it should be about the same size In fact you could build one now that will work through the fast charge connector but there is no point since the standards for using J 1772 AC level 1 and 2 and the on-board charger have already been adopted.

As batteries are improved and larger battery packs become common, local DC charging will make more sense. The current long range Tesla has an on-board 10 kw charger and an 85 kw/h battery pack so the on-board charger must be large enough to charge the pack within a reasonable amount of time. In fact if you want to charge even faster you can add an additional second 10 kw charger, If you used the current Leaf charger, it would take about 20 plus hours to charge it fully so a Tesla on-board charger must be fairly large and heavy, especially if you gang two of them. No wonder they offered fast DC charging right out of the box.

One other advantage for DC chargers, there is not as much heavy copper wire in the car. another reduction in static weight.

Well, I beat all that up pretty badly; I hope you get my point.

You're correct that placing the charger in the BEV rather than in stationary applications is unlikely to continue for long once public charging becomes a reality. It is not only grossly inefficient from an engineering standpoint to carry the charger with the BEV, but also an inferior economic model.

We all want public fast charging, but nearly all of us will only need it for a few hours per month. Placing DC fast chargers in fixed locations, at charge stations, will allow a ratio of one charger for multiple (hundreds?) of BEVs. Much cheaper than requiring each BEV owner to buy their own, and also allowing for greater vehicle efficiency, as you noted.

Lower kW home charging through the DC port will allow each BEV owner to select the charger with the rate of charge and energy demand compatible with their home's electricity service capacity and TOU rate structure. A single home charger with multiple DC plugs will be able to charge multiple BEVs in your home garage, with charge rates and priorities for each vehicle programmed and controlled remotely.

All this will not happen by 2013, of course, but I think the reality of off-board charging might come in only a few years, if the public DC fast charging infrastructure develops to allow it.

 

[TomT]

Correct. There is very little extra left to extract in drive-line efficiencies.

I think Tom meant drive train efficiencies.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... so a Tesla on-board charger must be fairly large and heavy, especially if you gang two of them. No wonder they offered fast DC charging right out of the box.

The 10kW charger on the Tesla and Rav4 is not large or heavy.

 

[evnow]

You're correct that placing the charger in the BEV rather than in stationary applications is unlikely to continue for long once public charging becomes a reality. It is not only grossly inefficient from an engineering standpoint to carry the charger with the BEV, but also an inferior economic model.

But, it is far easier to
- make BEV buyers pay for the charger
- make businesses put cheap A/C connections

 

[OrientExpress]

BTW, is the terminology "Mark 1" and "Mark 2" what Nissan's using or is it something you came up with?)

Mk1, Mk2...... is industrial terminology used to distinguish between iterations of a product or device. It is quite common in the aerospace, automotive, and heavy industrial markets. In the Japanese industrial markets the term Gen1, 2,... is also used. This is independent from the manufacturer's model designation.

For example, the current Honda Civic is referred to as the Gen10 Civic, and the current VW Golf is referred to as the Mk6 Golf. Porsche on the other hand only tends to use Mk1 and Mk2 to refer to mid-cycle product refreshes.

In the case of the LEAF, this is its first product refresh, hence the designation Mk2. Use of the term Mk2 rather than model year 12, or 13 makes it easier to have a discussion that may span across geographies that have different trim specifications and model cycles.

While the Mk1 car is still being built for european markets, the Mk2 is also being built along side the Mk1 in Oppama, and is now available for sale in Japan. The US specification Mk2 is also starting to be built in Smyrna for sale starting in January/February.

BTW, Nissan is very interested in alternative motor configurations. Don't be surprised if they are the first out of the gate with a commercial implementation of a hub-motor driven BEV or hybrid.

 

[brg2290]

BTW, Nissan is very interested in alternative motor configurations. Don't be surprised if they are the first out of the gate with a commercial implementation of a hub-motor driven BEV or hybrid.

Like the Esflow was reported to have...still waiting for that one :?

 

[cwerdna]

BTW, is the terminology "Mark 1" and "Mark 2" what Nissan's using or is it something you came up with?)

Mk1, Mk2...... is industrial terminology used to distinguish between iterations of a product or device. It is quite common in the aerospace, automotive, and heavy industrial markets. In the Japanese industrial markets the term Gen1, 2,... is also used. This is independent from the manufacturer's model designation.

For example, the current Honda Civic is referred to as the Gen10 Civic, and the current VW Golf is referred to as the Mk6 Golf. Porsche on the other hand only tends to use Mk1 and Mk2 to refer to mid-cycle product refreshes.

In the case of the LEAF, this is its first product refresh, hence the designation Mk2. Use of the term Mk2 rather than model year 12, or 13 makes it easier to have a discussion that may span across geographies that have different trim specifications and model cycles.

While the Mk1 car is still being built for european markets, the Mk2 is also being built along side the Mk1 in Oppama, and is now available for sale in Japan. The US specification Mk2 is also starting to be built in Smyrna for sale starting in January/February.

I see, in Prius-land, we've never referred to generations as Mark/Mk. It's usually 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation. Even Toyota's marketing content refers to 3rd generation Prius. We usually go by model year, and sometimes by model designation (for lack of better word) (e.g. NHW11, NHW20, ZVW30). ZVW30 = 3rd gen (current) regular Prius aka liftback. NHW20 was 2nd gen Prius.

On maxima.org, we just referred to the generation and/or model year, not A32, A33, etc.

But, BMW people seem to like to refer to the designation/model code (e.g. E46, E90, F30) and less by model year.

Thanks for the other info.

 

[planet4ever]

No, you should be able to build a nice 300 VDC, 20 amp AC to DC rectifier that works on 240 VAC with the correct Leaf protocol for less then what an EVSE costs you at Home Depot, much less;

I'm not an EE, but I don't think it's anywhere close to that simple. The "correct protocol" does not call for 300 VDC. It calls for a variable voltage, as directed by the battery controller. And I know Phil keeps mentioning some isolation requirements. I don't fully understand those, but I trust him when he says they add significant expense and complication to the design. And don't forget that the onboard charger is water cooled. You would undoubtedly need some cooling system for your "simple rectifier".

Ray

 

[fotajoye]

I'm not an EE, but I don't think it's anywhere close to that simple. The "correct protocol" does not call for 300 VDC. It calls for a variable voltage, as directed by the battery controller. And I know Phil keeps mentioning some isolation requirements. I don't fully understand those, but I trust him when he says they add significant expense and complication to the design. And don't forget that the onboard charger is water cooled. You would undoubtedly need some cooling system for your "simple rectifier".
Ray

I'm not talking specifics here and wouldn't suggest that one create a power supply project because the standards are set; on-board J-1772 is the standard. But, down the line I expect to see different standards and I believe some will realize there are saving by removing the charger external to the car, especially when battery capacity becomes large. There are engineers working on various forms of external charging already using inductive charging rings.

Let me offer this: why not remove the charger from the Leaf and hang it on the wall so to speak. If you extend the cables and wiring length isn't a problem, i.e., no capacitance/resistance problems, you could do that. But, you wouldn't want to because the standard makes it impractical. In order to charge at a remote location, you would need to carry the charger with you.

Yes there is reverse engineering involve here, non-paid mind work, to see what Nissan is doing and then working out the handshaking and communication between the car's controller and a programmable power supply; however, the charging process for Li Ion batteries is pretty much known and you could work that out; one would need to determine what the battery's BMS does, etc. The isolation problems are there; basically, you want to float the traction battery from chassis ground and isolate any paths from the battery's high voltage.

What was your other point? Oh yes, cooling. Not much of a problem when the PS is only 20 amps...a fan should do it. Remember, we are talking about power equal to about roughly the resistance heating of a hot water heater element or about 3.5 kilowatts.


Look on this as one of those "what If" kind of ideas not something that would gen up a real project, at least not now.

 

[RegGuheert]

Let me offer this: why not remove the charger from the Leaf and hang it on the wall so to speak.

Cost.

The LEAF already has the ability to be charged from DC through the ChaDeMo connector. Just the handle which plugs into that connector likely costs more than the 350 dollars I spent to have the Panasonic EVSE upgraded to work at 240VAC. Granted, that connector is for much higher currents, but it will also work at the lower power levels.

Regardless, I don't think we will see the chargers migrate out of EVs for two main reasons: cost and convenience. I like having the opportunity to charge almost anywhere. And since the voltage of the battery in EVs is both higher voltage and DC, the safety equipment for an external charger will be much more expensive. Circuit breakers for DC tend to be more difficult than circuit brakers for AC since it is harder to extinguish the arc that forms.

I expect that EVs will come with chargers for the foreseeable future.

 

[fotajoye]

I expect that EVs will come with chargers for the foreseeable future.

I agree if it's an OEM who must follow the standards; however, for unique applications, i.e., special haul trucks, race cars,, DIY conversions, etc., there is no reason to carry the weight and they will charge from an external, dedicated source.

BTW, the DIY sector of EV activity is really starting to come alive because of active dedicated individuals who are helping to lead the movement. I recommend you watch what Jack Rickard is doing at http://www.evtv.me" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

 

[philipscoggins]

I bumped into a LEAF engineer around town who was talking with a guy who had just asked me to check out my car. We went out into the parking lot & I talked about how fun it was to drive & the engineer talked about why they did certain things & lots of technical stuff that at least understood partially (thanks to this forum)

He said that the engine compartment was designed to look like a regular ice engine compartment so that it didn't scare people off. :lol:

So, the engineer guy (amazing stereotype fit) told me several things about the car, but didn't know some things I knew, or at least think I know about upcoming changes)

#1. He said DCQC was BAD for the battery and if I want my battery to last, don't do it.

#2. He said that the 2011 & 2012 model wasn't really a 1st gen model, more like a large scale beta test

#3. Nissan has plans for a larger battery

#4. Nissan calls this a regular car ($38k?) and will work their way up to more luxury models.

#5. I told my friend about how they were eliminating the beautiful LEDs on the upcoming S model headlights & engineer said they were eliminating the LEDs on the back too (you guys probably knew that, but it was new to me)

RE: the DCQC battery, I asked him if it was ok to charge level 3 as long as the battery didn't get hot and he said NO

He didn't know about the inductive charging plan

All completely "off the record" & he didn't introduce himself to me.
You'll have to trust me, I don't want to give hints & get someone in trouble.
NO people skills LoL, but very much an engineer :lol:

Philip