Goodbye Nissan Leaf, hello Kia Soul EV

asimba2 said:

Amen to that! Why would anyone WANT a TMS if the industry can eventually get a battery chemistry that can hold up on its own? Added cost and complexity which are two things I love to avoid with my EV! Jury is still out on the 2015 but hopefully it shows an improvement. And for the record I considered the Kia but not only is it not available in my area the added cost doesn't quite justify the extra couple of miles on the GOM. My 2015 Leaf regularly gets me over 100 miles range + GOM in the summer.

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The grass is always greener on the other side. I certainly do not aspire to the massive vampire draws the Tesla has in both hot an cold weather:
"I was on vacation for a few days and the Leaf was outside and unplugged (mean outdoor temp approx 25°F). Over the 8.5 day period, the idle power loss was 0.4 kWh (took 9 minutes to top-off at about 11A average charging current), which equates to only 50 watt hours per day. It's the purple square on the graph. That car can really sleep, even in the cold!

In contrast, the Tesla lost 18.85 kWh over only 4.9 days, which equated to 5,630 watt hours per day. It took slightly over 4 hours to top off at 20A. If the Tesla had been unplugged for the same amount of time as the Leaf, it would have taken slightly over 7 hours to top off, using 32.63 kWh. At my cost (Windsource @ 16¢ / kWh) for an 8.5 day vacation the Leaf would cost 6.4¢ while idle, and the Tesla $5.22."

I can't find the forum thread where I saw data for hot temps, but my recollection is the Tesla TMS could draw nearly half of the Leaf's TOTAL battery capacity in one day of high heat. I'd prefer heat tolerant chemistry over a complicated and wasteful TMS any day.

Can the Soul's A/C be triggered remotely when parked? Might not be a bad idea to turn it on for a bit at 3-4 pm on really hot days to let the battery breathe a bit.

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how much power is devoted to Tesla TMS is a greatly discussed topic but the numbers rarely agree. I suspect its somewhere in the middle. yours are higher and "high heat" statements aggravate more than complement any discussion but then again; Tesla needed to make money and fast and developing a better battery chemistry or paying the going rate was not an option. So they did what they could afford and the product was not good but they learned quickly and adjustments came fast.

This really illustrates imm, the real reason Tesla is building their own battery factory. Better chemistry, etc. Instead of spending big bucks to design everything well, they went will lets put together what the people want and see what they break before we decide to go whole hog on a complete ground up design.

The Roadster is iconic in more ways than looks. It was the essential S Model prototype in more ways than we can imagine. Musk may seem like a risk taker but he actually has a pretty well defined process of learning from the previous mistakes even if he refuses to publiclyacknowledge that fact.

asimba2 said:

The grass is always greener on the other side. I certainly do not aspire to the massive vampire draws the Tesla has in both hot an cold weather:
"I was on vacation for a few days and the Leaf was outside and unplugged (mean outdoor temp approx 25°F). Over the 8.5 day period, the idle power loss was 0.4 kWh (took 9 minutes to top-off at about 11A average charging current), which equates to only 50 watt hours per day. It's the purple square on the graph. That car can really sleep, even in the cold!

In contrast, the Tesla lost 18.85 kWh over only 4.9 days, which equated to 5,630 watt hours per day. It took slightly over 4 hours to top off at 20A. If the Tesla had been unplugged for the same amount of time as the Leaf, it would have taken slightly over 7 hours to top off, using 32.63 kWh. At my cost (Windsource @ 16¢ / kWh) for an 8.5 day vacation the Leaf would cost 6.4¢ while idle, and the Tesla $5.22."

I can't find the forum thread where I saw data for hot temps, but my recollection is the Tesla TMS could draw nearly half of the Leaf's TOTAL battery capacity in one day of high heat. I'd prefer heat tolerant chemistry over a complicated and wasteful TMS any day.

Can the Soul's A/C be triggered remotely when parked? Might not be a bad idea to turn it on for a bit at 3-4 pm on really hot days to let the battery breathe a bit.

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Total hogwash.
First, this is either an exaggeration of the original vampire draw, or if more recent, simply made up numbers.

Second, most of the Vampire Draw has nothing to do with TMS.

Current settings allow you to minimize the vampire draw with a number of options.
If you want instant response from the App, you can have that, but it costs energy to leave those systems fully active.
And, you can't make a linear extrapolation of vampire drain because the car goes into deeper and deeper sleep as time goes by.

Yes, a TMS will draw more energy than not having one. No, you can't attribute all vampire loss to TMS.
And yes, I think most would agree having TMS is desirable until a battery is developed that isn't harmed by temperature swings.
I don't see why a simpler system without TMS would be desirable because someday in the future a battery may be developed that doesn't need it.

Valdemar said:

ILETRIC said:

Nothing contradictory about that (the above), Valdemar...

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If the capacity losses are masked by the inaccessible buffer is it really better? Now, if there is no buffer as GRA says then sure. You were making a statement without knowing the basic facts about the underlying technology.

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You're thinking about the battery at the cell level; they are evaluating at the pack level. If the capacity losses are masked by a buffer, do I really care? As far as most drivers are concerned the battery pack is a black box. If they get a consistent amount of energy storage over a long period of time, it's a "good battery"

It's like disk storage. You can build a hugely reliable storage array out of a lot of crappy little disk drives. Is it a "better disk"? You bet. Is it made from "better disks"? No.

^^^ The buffer is not infinite, and it is just a matter of time until the degradation will start eating into the perceived range. That is if anyone is concerned about long term ownership. For 2-3 year leases sure, who cares, but then even the Leaf will work on a 2-3 year old lease just fine for most people.

Valdemar said:

^^^ The buffer is not infinite, and it is just a matter of time until the degradation will start eating into the perceived range. That is if anyone is concerned about long term ownership. For 2-3 year leases sure, who cares, but then even the Leaf will work on a 2-3 year old lease just fine for most people.

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Sure it's a matter of time before I'm dust, so whether or not the battery is "good" depends on how much time, not whether or not it needs a buffer to achieve it. The downsides of a buffer are weight and cost.

is it just me or is the sole EV very expensive.

you're paying 300 a month for a lease after putting 11500 down? That seems extremely expensive to me

if I got those numbers right that's over 19,000 dollars with taxes more than I paid for my leaf out right and I get to keep it.

Did i miss something?

An extra 3kw would be amazing in the leaf.

you're paying 300 a month for a lease after putting 11500 down?

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I think you are way way off.. here or in some other thread you will see the Soul EV lease costs are not that much off from Leaf .

Here is a better "view" of this battery. My round trip commute is a hilly 84 miles (101 Marin, 580 Oakland) and negligible street miles. I come home with 17-22 miles remaining, my average speed reads 49 mph. I drive mostly 62-63 mph with about 4-8 miles at 55 mph, based on traffic. I use heat and AC on return trip to keep defogged, pretty much all the way, 68F is a good medium number.

You can all calculate the rest.

As for that lease price: I put down a total of 3,500 (2,000 cash, 1,500 Leaf - ten grand still remained on my loan, I traded it for $11,500). The price was 39,500 minus 1,500 Kia promo, total 38,000. The remaining value after 3 years 15,000-mile-per-year lease was around $15,000. Do the math and you come up with about $370 per month. I got it for $349 including tax, which means around $320 (plus tax).

So that's the deal. I call it a winner. Got rid of $509 Leaf payments for 22 more months which would have ended in owning a Safeway/Costco car with a 3.3 charger and a "maybe" replacement battery that will cost at least 5 grand, and bring me up to the original 73 miles. I call that dead-end tech, folks. That's the reality of it. I laugh when I see a Leaf now. Particularly one with the blinker on the front fenders. I know very well now what it is and feel sorry for the owner. (That's an "I" message, so don't call me on it.)

What I have now is a superb car in every frickin' respect, that can take me to work, which is what I wanted in the first place back in 2011. And it is saving me money.

Ahhhhh ok that does seem like a good deal.

I had assumed the 11500 went intk the new car.

Much better.

I wish i could afford that much car but even a new leaf is beyond my means. Got a used one 4800 miles mint for $17k

I wanted the rav4ev though its sounding like the kia might be perfectly suitable. Maybe in a few years i can get a 2 year old one.

Sadly a lease is simply not an option for me at 40,000 miles a year.

Weak or not a free leaf is a free leaf (the payments are far less per month than i was spending in gas)

To give you an idea. I have had the car 2 months and already doubled the miles on it. 9700 miles tonight.

Post some pics!!!

nerys said:

Post some pics!!!

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That's a definite maybe...

ILETRIC said:

I laugh when I see a Leaf now. Particularly one with the blinker on the front fenders. I know very well now what it is and feel sorry for the owner.

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No need to feel sorry if you ever see me driving by. After 6 years I will have spent about the same on my Leaf as you on your 2 cars, that is after putting a new battery in if needed. And will have a car that I own, if I feel like keeping it. Other than that, enjoy your new toy, wish you be as happy with it 2 years down the road.

Top speed of only 90mph? Really? I hope you don't get rear-ended in the HOV lane by a Tesla driver :mrgreen:

nerys said:

Ahhhhh ok that does seem like a good deal.

I had assumed the 11500 went intk the new car.

Much better.

I wish i could afford that much car but even a new leaf is beyond my means. Got a used one 4800 miles mint for $17k

I wanted the rav4ev though its sounding like the kia might be perfectly suitable. Maybe in a few years i can get a 2 year old one.

Sadly a lease is simply not an option for me at 40,000 miles a year.

Weak or not a free leaf is a free leaf (the payments are far less per month than i was spending in gas)

To give you an idea. I have had the car 2 months and already doubled the miles on it. 9700 miles tonight.

Post some pics!!!

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You can get an unlimited milage LEASE on a RAV.

Same with the honda fit. Alas my credit is not good enough for honda (compliance car) and neither my credit nor my pocket book is good enough for the rav.

As for that lease price: I put down a total of 3,500 (2,000 cash, 1,500 Leaf - ten grand still remained on my loan, I traded it for $11,500). The price was 39,500 minus 1,500 Kia promo, total 38,000. The remaining value after 3 years 15,000-mile-per-year lease was around $15,000. Do the math and you come up with about $370 per month. I got it for $349 including tax, which means around $320 (plus tax).

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If I understand this correctly, you got your monthly payments on a three year lease down to $349/month *after* making a down payment of $3500. Assuming that is correct, your monthly payment is an equivalent of $447/month with zero down.

That is still less than my first Leaf payment of $450, but considerably higher than $280/month I am paying now in my 2nd Leaf, both with zero down.

Still I wouldn't mind paying a good premium for a real world 100 mile EV, like the Rav4 or Soul EV

mkjayakumar said:

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Still I wouldn't mind paying a good premium for a real world 100 mile EV, like the Rav4 or Soul EV

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I think it's stretching a point to call the Soul a real world 100 mile EV. It can do it in benign conditions, but the real world is often not benign, even in SoCal or the Bay Area. The RAV4, OTOH, has enough excess range that I do consider it a fairly real world 100-mile car, at least for a couple of years.

MOD NOTE: I moved the kWh vs kW discussion here to keep this topic on topic.

kWh vs kW and why it's important

Blinker on front fender? What is that?

KIA lease offer:

Soul EV base model: $249 per month for 36 months with $1,999 Due at Signing after $7,500 Federal Tax Credit has been applied to reduce cost of lease.

Most of us can never use the $7500 tax credit so it is pretty worthless.

I think i ran the numbers and you need to make 60 or 70 thousand dollars a year to fully realize thectax credit. Far far less than half the nation makes that much.