Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

mksE55 said:

I didnt know someone else had better information than the manual for battery loss. Is this posted by Nissan. I suggest my loss is greater than 21.75% but I dont know how much battery is available below the dash marks and really dont want to find out.

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It isn't that we have better information than Nissan, they probably have plenty of information, but remain tight lipped about it. However, some of us have developed a Battery Aging Model based on some information from a Nissan engineer and a number of other assumptions. I would say it is roughly accurate, although an individual Leaf may do significantly better or worse depending on a number of factors not accounted for in the model. You can read this link:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and the other headings on the same page to get up to speed. My guess is that your Leaf battery pack was inadvertantly damaged by being left at 100% for long periods of time by the dealer. You may very well be somewhat worse than the battery aging model predicts. I would definitely complain to Nissan, because they didn't disclose the extent to which heat affects the life of the battery pack.

LEAFfan said:

I firmly believe that losing the first CB on a '11/'12 is a 20% loss in capacity, not 15%. Two reasons:
The BCM and Gid meter read 80-81% after a one bar loss, but 98-100% when new (on some cars here).
When it was new, I could easily drive 100 miles on an 80% charge. After losing a CB, I could only drive 80 miles or less on a 100% charge (same m/kW h and same route with same conditions).

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i thought your meter was reading true SOC? so you are seeing near 100% when new when true SOC "shouldnt" be higher than about 93.6?

i definitely missed that tidbit of info.

DaveinOlyWA said:

i thought your meter was reading true SOC? so you are seeing near 100% when new when true SOC "shouldnt" be higher than about 93.6?

i definitely missed that tidbit of info.

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The BCM is a ScanGauge II prototype, which displays CAN bus message 0x05BC, better known here as a Gid, and divides it by 2.81 to get a percentage value. Please note that the true SOC cannot be calculated by dividing Gids by 300. I mentioned that in a comment to you on Facebook as well. I would be curious to know who came up with that idea, and why this misinformation continues to spread.

surfingslovak said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

i thought your meter was reading true SOC? so you are seeing near 100% when new when true SOC "shouldnt" be higher than about 93.6?

i definitely missed that tidbit of info.

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The BCM is a ScanGauge II prototype, which displays CAN bus message 0x05BC, better known here as a Gid, and divides it by 2.81 to get a percentage value. Please note that the true SOC cannot be calculated by dividing Gids by 300. I mentioned that in a comment to you on Facebook as well. I would be curious to know who came up with that idea, and why this misinformation continues to spread.

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ok, my bad. still have the "80 watt hour per GID" in my head.

first test run keeping up with numbers, show a moderate drop from last year. now from full charge. i drove to 47.7 hit LBW . avg 4.0 Kwhr 8 miles with 1 bar left.
got home with 50.6 miles 6 miles left on GOM. 1 bar. did have the ac on for 10min of the total trip. this is not a good start 5 temp bars 6 for short time. temps 74 here in TX. mix of 13 miles hwy 65mph rest in city 30-45 mph some lights. last yr I got 58.7 to LBW 4.6kwhr similar driving.

I will add the total charge time to this post tomorrow if that helps. 8:18 to 12:48 is when i got the email. how quick does the car send the email usually. approx 4 hr 30 min

I felt this happening since last August, but now it's "official".

This morning I woke up to my first capacity bar *poof* gone on my 2011 SL, VIN#909. Mileage just turned over 25000.

The climate has been moderately cool here in SoCal.

I was toying with the idea of trading in the lease for a 2013, but now with 11 bars the plummeting value death knell has begun and those rose-colored glasses are off.

It's still a great car to drive, and I can only hope that Nissan gets it's **** together with 2014 and thermal battery management. If not, I'll simply support a competitor that does.

z0ner said:

It's still a great car to drive, and I can only hope that Nissan gets it's **** together with 2014 and thermal battery management. If not, I'll simply support a competitor that does.

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That's about where my 2011 was at 25,000 miles (last summer, though). Hope the car still works for you, however.

Nissan has no plans for TMS.

TonyWilliams said:

z0ner said:

It's still a great car to drive, and I can only hope that Nissan gets it's **** together with 2014 and thermal battery management. If not, I'll simply support a competitor that does.

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That's about where my 2011 was at 25,000 miles (last summer, though). Hope the car still works for you, however.

Nissan has no plans for TMS.

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Still loving your RAV4 EV Tony? I remember one of your posts saying that Toyota took the "fun" out of it and it seems more utilitarian for you versus the LEAF. To me, the RAV is the only other BEV I'd consider if I had to purchase today.

z0ner said:

TonyWilliams said:

z0ner said:

It's still a great car to drive, and I can only hope that Nissan gets it's **** together with 2014 and thermal battery management. If not, I'll simply support a competitor that does.

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That's about where my 2011 was at 25,000 miles (last summer, though). Hope the car still works for you, however.

Nissan has no plans for TMS.

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Still loving your RAV4 EV Tony? I remember one of your posts saying that Toyota took the "fun" out of it and it seems more utilitarian for you versus the LEAF. To me, the RAV is the only other BEV I'd consider if I had to purchase today.

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I liked both LEAFs, but ultimately got tired of coming up short on range. I like the Rav4, but it has its own issues, largely related to the fact that it was designed for one purpose, and the design is "frozen", including all the flaws.

I would be happy to get a $200-$250 lease on a LEAF if I needed a 50-75 mile car. Now, I can drive 100 miles at just about any speed I want.

z0ner said:

It's still a great car to drive, and I can only hope that Nissan gets it's **** together with 2014 and thermal battery management.

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There's a couple other options other than battery management:
1. Use a chemistry more resistant to heat. Something 2-3x more resistant to heat would be good for everyone except perhaps Phoenix.
2. Use a bigger battery. A bigger battery will be stressed less and will also leave you with more range after capacity loss. I think ideally at EOL for most users, capacity should remain about where the LEAF starts out new.

Failing that - at the very least some sort of TMS which runs at a minimum when the car is charging would bring down the temp of the pack significantly and since the pack has a good deal of thermal mass would remain much cooler than normal. Heck, even just simple air cooling would be beneficial in many situations when you want to bring the pack down to ambient temperatures - think during QC or after moving the car from a hot sun-baked parking lot to the shade.

z0ner said:

I felt this happening since last August, but now it's "official".

This morning I woke up to my first capacity bar *poof* gone on my 2011 SL, VIN#909. Mileage just turned over 25000.

The climate has been moderately cool here in SoCal.

I was toying with the idea of trading in the lease for a 2013, but now with 11 bars the plummeting value death knell has begun and those rose-colored glasses are off.

It's still a great car to drive, and I can only hope that Nissan gets it's **** together with 2014 and thermal battery management. If not, I'll simply support a competitor that does.

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Added to the wiki tracker

z0ner said:

I was toying with the idea of trading in the lease for a 2013, but now with 11 bars the plummeting value death knell has begun and those rose-colored glasses are off.

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I would still talk to them. wouldnt hurt to see where you stand. A dealer that knows you are getting a car from them can be very accommodating. After all a lease turn in is not the same as a trade in. not sure of the ramifications of ending a lease early (sure that will cost u some money) but might be able to get that adjusted as well.

It's still a great car to drive, and I can only hope that Nissan gets it's **** together with 2014 and thermal battery management. If not, I'll simply support a competitor that does.

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no TMS, at least not in the way you are thinking of. simply too much money to put it in at this point. Also Nissan didnt think it was the best thing safety-wise to go concerning liquid cooling.

chemistry tweaks will be part of it. guessing some software adjustments to address part of it.

a look at chilled air is being investigated but not likely to happen unless the pack get bigger first. Last thing Nissan wants to do is right now is lessen the range.

Joeviocoe said:

Added to the wiki tracker

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Thanks Joeviocoe, I notified Nissan and updated the tracker with all my pertinent info:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_one_battery_capacity_bar_.2815.25.29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA said:

I would still talk to them. wouldnt hurt to see where you stand. A dealer that knows you are getting a car from them can be very accommodating. After all a lease turn in is not the same as a trade in. not sure of the ramifications of ending a lease early (sure that will cost u some money) but might be able to get that adjusted as well.

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I actually did about two weeks ago, and my lease payments for a '13 SV would drop, but not as much as I had expected. There's a gap of about 4-5K that I'd have to roll into the new lease. I'd rather be patient, wait a year, then get the benefit of a much better deal where I don't leave $5K on the table.

I checked out the possibility of doing that with mine and it was ridiculously expensive, at least in CA...

DaveinOlyWA said:

I would still talk to them. wouldnt hurt to see where you stand. A dealer that knows you are getting a car from them can be very accommodating. After all a lease turn in is not the same as a trade in. not sure of the ramifications of ending a lease early (sure that will cost u some money) but might be able to get that adjusted as well.

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A Priuschatter I know (and Facebook friend) who lives in the Phoenix area commented about a forecasted 99 F temp this weekend. From http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Phoenix+AZ+USAZ0166:1:US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, yep, that sounds about right. (For future reference, here are forecasted highs for 4/27/13 thru 5/4/13: 97, 100, 101, 99, 98, 99, 99, 99).

It'll be interesting to see how many capacity bars Phoenicians lose a few months from now... and how many newer Leafs there lose their 1st one while entering their 2nd summer.

Six temp bars when I got in my LEAF yesterday morning at 6:30am here in Tucson. My outside temperature gauge showed 68. The high the day before was 93, and I had six temp bars on my drive home even though it was parked in the shade all day.

Five bars this morning, with a low of 57 last night.

It sure would be nice to be able to cool the battery pack at night while plugged in.

cwerdna said:

A Priuschatter I know (and Facebook friend) who lives in the Phoenix area commented about a forecasted 99 F temp this weekend. From http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Phoenix+AZ+USAZ0166:1:US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, yep, that sounds about right. (For future reference, here are forecasted highs for 4/27/13 thru 5/4/13: 97, 100, 101, 99, 98, 99, 99, 99).

It'll be interesting to see how many capacity bars Phoenicians lose a few months from now... and how many newer Leafs there lose their 1st one while entering their 2nd summer.

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FYI: During the summer peak, temperatures might get DOWN to 85F just before dawn.

cwerdna said:

A Priuschatter I know (and Facebook friend) who lives in the Phoenix area commented about a forecasted 99 F temp this weekend. From http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Phoenix+AZ+USAZ0166:1:US" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, yep, that sounds about right. (For future reference, here are forecasted highs for 4/27/13 thru 5/4/13: 97, 100, 101, 99, 98, 99, 99, 99).

It'll be interesting to see how many capacity bars Phoenicians lose a few months from now... and how many newer Leafs there lose their 1st one while entering their 2nd summer.

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there has been more than few hybrid owners in the area that also had battery issues. were all those within warranties? anyone know if anyone had out of pocket repairs?

z0ner said:

I felt this happening since last August, but now it's "official".

This morning I woke up to my first capacity bar *poof* gone on my 2011 SL, VIN#909. Mileage just turned over 25000.

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Sorry to hear it z0ner. I know what you mean about feeling it coming. I've got 22.5 k miles and my LEAF has a similar VIN to yours and my full charge range at 4 mi/kWh has dropped to about 70 miles from the original 86, so I expect to lose a bar soon.

Do you have an estimate of your car's current range on either 80% or full charge at this point?

Here is the latest geographic distribution from Joe's Google spreadsheet: