Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

GRA · Sep 26, 2014

Via GCC:

"German researchers boost algal hydrogen production five-fold using metabolic engineering approach"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/09/20140925-mpi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"EPFL team develops low-cost water splitting cell with solar-to-hydrogen efficiency of 12.3%"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/09/20140926-epfl.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My usual caveats about the difference between lab tests and a commercial product apply.

AndyH · Sep 27, 2014

Powering the future on ant venom

http://evworld.com/focus.cfm?cid=240

Maybe best of all, it can be produced by a renewable process that recycles CO2 out of the atmosphere via plant biomass. Joan Slonczewski notes on her blog that the bacterium Acetobacterium woodii can be stimulated to convert dangerous carbon monoxide found in syngas into formic acid, a clear liquid that can be shipped and stored like any liquid fuel.

According to Dr. Chris D'Couto, Neah Power's CEO and the featured guest in the interview below, a five kilowatt hour fuel cell running off a tank of liquid formic acid would be configured to trickle charge an electric vehicle's battery, allowing it, like the gasoline engine generator in the BMW i3 REx, to offer extended range capability. Unlike the i3 REx, the only tailpipe emission would be water vapor and CO2.

TonyWilliams · Sep 27, 2014

I'm almost afraid that we will find some magic "CO2 sucker" which will keep us on fossil fuels until the last war that mankind has... over fossil fuels.

Deleted member 14045 · Oct 1, 2014

TonyWilliams said:
I'm almost afraid that we will find some magic "CO2 sucker" which will keep us on fossil fuels until the last war that mankind has... over fossil fuels.

Um, you mean like trees or something? :lol:

TonyWilliams · Oct 2, 2014

The Energy Commission is required under California Code of Regulations, Title 13, Chapter 8.1, Section 2343(c)(6), to consider the localized health impacts and environmental justice when approving projects for funding.

The Localized Health Impacts Report for Selected Hydrogen Fuel Infrastructure Projects Awarded Funding Through the Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Program under Solicitation PON-13-607 was posted on June 19, 2014 and the 30-day public comment period ended July 19, 2014.

The Energy Commission has published an addendum to the original Localized Health Impacts Report. This addendum assesses and reports on the potential localized health impacts of a station location change for HyGen Industries, project "100% Renewable & Sustainable Carbon-Free Hydrogen Fueling Station Network." The original proposed station location was 8544 East Chapman Avenue, Orange, CA 92869. This location will be replaced by the new location at 1914 East Chapman Ave, Orange, CA 92867. The addendum was publicly available on October 2, 2014.

This report is available on the Energy Commission's website at: http://www.energy.ca.gov/altfuels/documents/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

A print copy is available upon request made either in writing to the address below or by electronic mail to [email protected].

If you have questions on the subject matter of this report, please contact Patrick Brecht at [email protected] or (916) 654-4084.

GRA · Oct 2, 2014

Looks like they decided to move it from one gas station to another one at a better location (freeway intersection). Interestingly, this will be one of the 100% renewable stations, apparently with onsite generation, and no adverse impacts are expected on the area; if anything, it anticipates an improvement in local air quality.

GRA · Oct 6, 2014

Via GCC:

Linde close to completing its first retail H2 fueling station in the US; next-generation ionic compressor

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141006-linde.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The station will be in West Sacramento, at an already existing multi-fuel station. From the article:

At the heart of the hydrogen fueling system is the 900-bar Linde IC 90 ionic compressor: the next generation of hydrogen compression technology which enables higher throughput and enhanced back-to-back fueling. (The 900 bar pressure enables drivers to refuel quickly at 700 bar.) Linde currently has the IC 50 ionic compressor installed at California’s AC Transit bus refueling station.

Unlike conventional piston-operated compressors, Linde’s IC 90 works with liquid salts—i.e., conventional metal pistons are replaced by a specially designed, nearly incompressible ionic liquid. The gas is compressed in the cylinder by the up-and-down motion of the liquid column, similar to the reciprocating motion of an ordinary piston.

Because the hydrogen is compressed at an almost isothermal temperature, ionic compressors are considerably more efficient than conventional compressors; energy consumption compared to a conventional piston compressor is reduced by about 25%, according to Linde.

Because these ionic liquids do not have a vapor pressure, they do not evaporate or mix with the hydrogen gas. These organic salts remain liquid within a specified temperature range. They also eliminate mechanical wear-and-tear and sealing problems inside the cylinders.

Equipped with a safety system and remote diagnosis and maintenance capabilities, the IC 90 meets all fueling standards to ensure safe, silent fueling and can achieve a pressure of 1,000 bar (14,500 psi) if required. The compressor has a throughput of up to 33.6 kg/h at 900 bar; a modular setup allows for higher throughputs if required.

GRA · Oct 8, 2014

Via GCC:

Mercedes-Benz B-Class F-CELL fuel cell vehicle cracks 300,000 kilometer mark; Daimler receives f-cell Award 2014

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141008-fcell.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ydnas7 · Oct 8, 2014

no description of efficiency loss and range loss given. The trace CO in natural air degrade H2 fuel cells, its akin to li ion battery degradation.

GRA · Oct 9, 2014

Via GCC:

UK putting up nearly $18M to establish initial hydrogen refueling network of up to 15 stations

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141009-ukh2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As the article makes clear the title is misleading, as the UK government is only putting up about $12 million and the other $5.6 million is coming from industry, to wit:

Industry participants are: Air Liquide SA; Daimler AG; Honda; The Hyundai Kia Automotive Group; Intelligent Energy Limited; ITM Power plc; Johnson Matthey plc; Morrisons; Nissan Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd; Sainsbury’s; The BOC Group Limited (part of the Linde Group); and Toyota Motor Corporation.

GRA · Oct 10, 2014

Via GCC:

France deploying test fleet of 50 fuel-cell light commercial vehicles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141010-france.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These are Renault Kangoo ZEs, I think but am not certain the REx postal vans mentioned upthread.

Daimler, Linde to invest €20M in 20 new H2 fueling stations in Germany, 13 by end of 2015; green hydrogen

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141008-daimler.html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

100% renewable apparently, made from crude glycerol, a byproduct of biodiesel production.

GRA · Oct 13, 2014

Via GCC:

Hydrogenics introduces Celerity fuel cell power system for medium- and heavy-duty vehicles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141013-celerity.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA · Oct 14, 2014

Via GCC:

New Flyer to start development of first 60' fuel cell hybrid bus in North America; introduces 40' battery-electric bus

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141014-nflyer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TonyWilliams · Oct 18, 2014

The Revised Notice of Proposed Awards for PON-13-607 is now available.

Grant Solicitation PON-13-607
Hydrogen Refueling Infrastructure - Operation and Maintenance Grants

Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Program

For more information:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/#nopa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(If link above doesn't work, please copy entire link into your web browser's URL)

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GRA · Oct 22, 2014

Via GCC:

Swedish Energy Agency awards PowerCell $960K toward developing modular fuel cell range extender system for EVs

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141022-morezero.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mbender · Oct 27, 2014

Here's a good back-n-forth, summary/reference article on Julian Cox's (blistering) argument against public funds being granted to promote and subsidize HFCVs and the industry/corporations behind the "fraud".

Via CleanTechnica: More On Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle Myths

I wish I had as much command of the facts, agencies and dynamics as Mr. Cox does!

GRA · Oct 27, 2014

mbender said:
Here's a good back-n-forth, summary/reference article on Julian Cox's (blistering) argument against public funds being granted to promote and subsidize HFCVs and the industry/corporations behind the "fraud".

Via CleanTechnica: More On Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle Myths

I wish I had as much command of the facts, agencies and dynamics as Mr. Cox does!

I thought I linked to this upthread a while back, but perhaps not.

mbender · Oct 27, 2014

GRA said:
I thought I linked to this upthread a while back, but perhaps not.

Oh, you might have. This was published today though, so I just assumed it contained new "material". But I didn't check that and it may indeed just have been a "repackaging".

TonyWilliams · Oct 27, 2014

mbender said:
GRA said:

I thought I linked to this upthread a while back, but perhaps not.

Click to expand...

Oh, you might have. This was published today though, so I just assumed it contained new "material". But I didn't check that and it may indeed just have been a "repackaging".

Looked like new material, but the same old argument. One thing that a hydrogen support never addresses directly is the extremely inefficient use of electricity to produce a "mile" of transport compared to electric vehicles.

Oh, and when somebody chimes in to tell me that an H2 car is an "electric vehicle", yes it it, as soon as you take away the hybrid part... hydrogen.

GRA · Oct 28, 2014

TonyWilliams said:
mbender said:

GRA said:

I thought I linked to this upthread a while back, but perhaps not.

Click to expand...

Oh, you might have. This was published today though, so I just assumed it contained new "material". But I didn't check that and it may indeed just have been a "repackaging".

Click to expand...

Looked like new material, but the same old argument. One thing that a hydrogen support never addresses directly is the extremely inefficient use of electricity to produce a "mile" of transport compared to electric vehicles.

Oh, and when somebody chimes in to tell me that an H2 car is an "electric vehicle", yes it it, as soon as you take away the hybrid part... hydrogen.

Does that mean that a BEV is an electric vehicle as soon as you take away the electric infrastructure that charges it, the majority of which is fossil-fueled in the U.S.? Is a streetcar, subway car or electric train only an an electric vehicle ditto? Is a diesel-electric submarine running on the batteries an electric vehicle, or do you have to remove the diesel engine that recharges the batteries first?

AIUI, Tony, the only electric vehicle that would qualify under your definition would be one that is only charged and/or driven by solar panels incorporated into the vehicle. Or would any on-board batteries rule it out, as it is then an electro-chemical hybrid?

Oh, and ISTR that during the course of this thread we've provided links that include well-to-wheel energy usage comparisons; we've definitely done so for GHG production. AFAIA, what's not in dispute by anyone here is that BEVs are more energy efficient per mile than FCVs, which are more efficient per mile than ICEs; the question is how important that is among the numerous other issues, cost (including storage) and operational utility being among the most important.

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