Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[donald]

Hydrogen is.....

Ranging from real to imaginary, the comment that made me chuckle the most was 'hydrogen is incredibly acidic'. :lol:

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Acidity comes from hydrogen ions. I'm not sure what is funny about that fact.

 

[donald]

Of course I'd call it an EV

You can call it anything you like, but you would not be right to do so.

Your definition, as mentioned, is absurd and qualifies all cars as 'electric'. They aren't. I mean they legally aren't.

In UK law at least, there is actually no mention of 'an electric car', only 'an electrically-propelled car', which is defined thus:-

For the purposes of this Act, a vehicle is not an electrically propelled vehicle unless the electrical motive power is derived from—
(a)a source external to the vehicle, or
(b)an electrical storage battery which is not connected to any source of power when the vehicle is in motion.

(Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994, S.62, "Definitions",(1A))

 

[donald]

Acidity comes from hydrogen ions. I'm not sure what is funny about that fact.

If you understood chemistry and someone suggested a bottle of hydrogen gas was 'incredibly acidic' then you'd get it.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

A fuel cell electric vehicle (hence the acronym FCEV) is powered by a battery on board the car. It is just that the battery is then recharged by the electricity generated in the fuel cell, that consumes the hydrogen that is different.

FCEV's are a subset of EV's.

Hydrogen is acidic. That's a fact. I fail to see that is amusing - it is one reason among many that make hydrogen powered cars that most people can afford - or that can be driven more than half their range away from the nearest filling station - a fantasy.

FCEV's will not happen at any scale large enough to be anything but a demonstration concept.

 

[TomT]

A very distant, very small subset...

FCEV's are a subset of EV's.

 

[DaveEV]

The guys at Toyota aren't mincing words about EV are bad, hydrogen good. If you haven't seen this, I guess I'm too lazy to dig it up right now.

Here it is:

Former Toyota Exec – Future Of Electric Cars Is Dim

 

[TomT]

He IS right that battery technology is moving at a snails pace and slower than any other vehicle technologies...

The guys at Toyota aren't mincing words about EV are bad, hydrogen good. If you haven't seen this, I guess I'm too lazy to dig it up right now.

Here it is:Former Toyota Exec – Future Of Electric Cars Is Dim

 

[aarond12]

Hydrogen is acidic. That's a fact.

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Chem_AcidsBasespHScale.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TIL: A substance that donates hydrogen ions is acidic; a substance that accepts hydrogen ions is basic.

 

[donald]

Hydrogen is acidic. That's a fact.

Amuse me.... what is the pH of hydrogen gas?

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Hydrogen is the basis for the definition of acidity. It is extremely reactive with many materials.

This was first discovered by our friend Svante Arrhenius - who also figured out about carbon dioxide being a greenhouse gas. And who posited that increasing carbon dioxide in the air would warm the climate.

 

[donald]

Hydrogen is the basis for the definition of acidity....first discovered by our friend Svante Arrhenius - who also figured out about carbon dioxide being a greenhouse gas. And who posited that increasing carbon dioxide in the air would warm the climate.

Well that proves it! :lol: :lol:

No, sorry, you are so wrong and you don't know it. It is embarrassing. Hydrogen ions are the basis for acidic properties. There are no hydrogen ions in hydrogen gas.

 

[TonyWilliams]

“The auto companies need to make zero-emission vehicles for Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) and other regulations, such as the California Air Resources Board’s zero emissions mandate, so they need to decide which pathway, EVs or FCVs, will lose the least amount of money. When most [manufacturers] investigate the two technologies, they see that FVCs offer more room for performance improvement and cost reduction potential. And that is why you will be seeing more fuel cells in the future”, says Former Toyota executive Bill Reinert, who recently retired as national manager of Toyota Motor Corporation’s advanced technology group.

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/interview_bill_reinert_bullish_on_hybrids_skeptical_about_electric_cars/2810/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://insideevs.com/former-toyota-exec-future-of-electric-cars-is-dim/#comment-566470" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

'Acid' by definition is in the context of an aqueous solution. Therefore, hydrogen gas is not acidic and does not have a pH. Unless there's a gas leak in the fuel cell stack, gaseous hydrogen is isolated from the water that is a result of the process - so under normal conditions there should be no acids formed in the stack.

Maybe in the real world there are some leaks or membrane permeability issues as the stack ages, or some such that would allow water to become acidic, but I've not read any sign of that in the literature or in my chemistry books.

 

[GRA]

Of course I'd call it an EV

You can call it anything you like, but you would not be right to do so.

Your definition, as mentioned, is absurd and qualifies all cars as 'electric'. They aren't. I mean they legally aren't.

In UK law at least, there is actually no mention of 'an electric car', only 'an electrically-propelled car', which is defined thus:-

For the purposes of this Act, a vehicle is not an electrically propelled vehicle unless the electrical motive power is derived from—
(a)a source external to the vehicle, or
(b)an electrical storage battery which is not connected to any source of power when the vehicle is in motion.

(Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994, S.62, "Definitions",(1A))

Which is fine, if they wish to define it that way. AFAIA, that's not how EVs are defined in the US, and it's certainly not how I define them. FWIW, here's how electric vehicles are defined by wikipedia:

An electric vehicle (EV), also referred to as an electric drive vehicle, uses one or more electric motors or traction motors for propulsion. An electric vehicle may be powered through a collector system by electricity from off-vehicle sources, or may be self-contained with a battery or generator to convert fuel to electricity.[3] EVs include road and rail vehicles, surface and underwater vessels, electric aircraft and electrically-powered space vehicles.

 

[GRA]

A fuel cell electric vehicle (hence the acronym FCEV) is powered by a battery on board the car. It is just that the battery is then recharged by the electricity generated in the fuel cell, that consumes the hydrogen that is different.

FCEV's are a subset of EV's.

Hydrogen is acidic. That's a fact. I fail to see that is amusing - it is one reason among many that make hydrogen powered cars that most people can afford - or that can be driven more than half their range away from the nearest filling station - a fantasy.

FCEV's will not happen at any scale large enough to be anything but a demonstration concept.

Actually, many FCVs (all FCEVs, which lack a battery unlike FCHEVs) provide electricity direct to the motor. Excess power is diverted to the battery if present, to provide for rapid acceleration and auxiliary uses.

 

[GRA]

The guys at Toyota aren't mincing words about EV are bad, hydrogen good. If you haven't seen this, I guess I'm too lazy to dig it up right now.

Here it is:

Former Toyota Exec – Future Of Electric Cars Is Dim

And how does the opinion of a former Toyota exec represent Toyota's corporate policy? Toyota has said (and there's plenty of evidence to back it up) that they continue to work on solid-state, i.e. non li-ion batteries, so how does this quote of the personal opinion of someone no longer employed by Toyota contradict that?

 

[GRA]

“The auto companies need to make zero-emission vehicles for Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) and other regulations, such as the California Air Resources Board’s zero emissions mandate, so they need to decide which pathway, EVs or FCVs, will lose the least amount of money. When most [manufacturers] investigate the two technologies, they see that FVCs offer more room for performance improvement and cost reduction potential. And that is why you will be seeing more fuel cells in the future”, says Former Toyota executive Bill Reinert, who recently retired as national manager of Toyota Motor Corporation’s advanced technology group.

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/interview_bill_reinert_bullish_on_hybrids_skeptical_about_electric_cars/2810/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://insideevs.com/former-toyota-exec-future-of-electric-cars-is-dim/#comment-566470" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Uh huh, see my reply to drees, and how is this dissing batteries? I wrote upthread that Toyota felt that FCVs had more commercial potential at the moment, and that appears to be exactly what Reinert is saying, even if it is merely his personal opinion. Still waiting to see where Toyota said batteries are 'bad', as opposed to 'less commercially acceptable at the moment', or words to that effect.

[Edit FWIW, I agree with Chelsea Sexton's recent article in (I think) GCR that PHEVs will most likely be the main competition to FCVs in the near term, not BEVs.

 

[donald]

Which is fine, if they wish to define it that way. AFAIA, that's not how EVs are defined in the US.... FWIW, here's how electric vehicles are defined by wikipedia:

An electric vehicle (EV), also referred to as an electric drive vehicle, uses one or more electric motors or traction motors for propulsion. An electric vehicle may be powered through a collector system by electricity from off-vehicle sources, or may be self-contained with a battery or generator to convert fuel to electricity.[3] EVs include road and rail vehicles, surface and underwater vessels, electric aircraft and electrically-powered space vehicles.

That's the same as my definition as above (which differs slightly to the UK definition) in different words.

, and it's certainly not how I define them.

You are in your own world there. It is meaningless to suggest a car is 'electric' simply because it has an electric system on board.

Like saying aeroplanes are electric. Meaningless.

 

[donald]

'Acid' by definition is in the context of an aqueous solution.

Actually, you can have non-aqueous acids too.

Maybe in the real world there are some leaks or membrane permeability issues as the stack ages, or some such that would allow water to become acidic, but I've not read any sign of that in the literature or in my chemistry books.

Nope. No way.

Hydrogen gas and water will not make any sort of acid, unless other chemical compounds are involved, and in a proton membrane FC there aren't (well, maybe some catalysts, but by definition they remain unchanged).

Acids require the dissociation in liquid of chemical compounds bearing ionic hydrogen. Even that doesn't mean an acid is always formed, but without that characteristic then it won't be.