Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[Zythryn]

...
Oh, and when somebody chimes in to tell me that an H2 car is an "electric vehicle", yes it it, as soon as you take away the hybrid part... hydrogen.

Does that mean that a BEV is an electric vehicle as soon as you take away the electric infrastructure that charges it, the majority of which is fossil-fueled in the U.S.? Is a streetcar, subway car or electric train only an an electric vehicle ditto? Is a diesel-electric submarine running on the batteries an electric vehicle, or do you have to remove the diesel engine that recharges the batteries first?
...

Completely twisted, no, make that broken logic.
A fuel cell vehicle takes hydrogen as fuel, not electricity.
Do you call a Ford Mustang an electric car because it has a 12V battery?

 

[AndyH]

Completely twisted, no, make that broken logic.
A fuel cell vehicle takes hydrogen as fuel, not electricity.
Do you call a Ford Mustang an electric car because it has a 12V battery?

Sorry, reducing to the absurd isn't applicable.

A fuel cell is basically an electrochemical cell with a replaceable electrolyte.

Would an EV that used a flow battery not be a 'true' EV?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Why would the hydrogen folks want to be identified as "electric"? I thought you were convinced hydrogen is "better", like Toyota, et al, thinks and has convinced CARB to think.

I've never seen a blurt out of Toyota when they are frequently diss-ing on electric cars clarify that to mean electric cars that are refueled with hydrogen.

Heck, I guess we can start calling ICE vehicles what they really are; gasoline fueled compression / spark ignition piston engine powered.

Anyhoo, it's all silly argument. Everybody is pretty clear about what type of vehicle that we are talking about when they say "hydrogen". The only two basic variables for basic understanding are whether it is a fuel cell or a piston engine.

 

[donald]

Everybody is pretty clear about what type of vehicle that we are talking about when they say "hydrogen".

One person on their own might be clear in their own mind, but they might well be talking about a different thing to someone else. Sorry, no, I don't think 'people' are that clear.

An effective FCEV will have a limited power generating capacity and a suitably sized battery pack. We're talking much more than a regular 'hybrid'. 6 to 10 kWh will need to be the size of the battery pack in an efficient FCEV capable of performing the world's various more demanding economy cycles.

If you have less than 6kWh then you end up needing a larger fuel cell, which in turn means you will be operating it off maximum efficiency, etc, etc. There are a lot of knock-on consequences.

So, no, I don't think people are clear on what an FCEV is. Even vehicle manufacturers and engineers aren't, because you can have all sorts of flavours ranging from a very small battery and very large fuel cell, i.e. almost entirely 'a fuel cell' car, to a very small cell and very large battery pack which you're more likely to describe as an FC Rex BEV.

An electric car is one where the traction is delivered by electric motor power alone. It is not a description founded on the energy source of the power.

A hybrid is where the traction power is blended electric motor and ICE power.

It goes something like:-
- An electric powered electric car is a BEV.
- A fuel, e.g. diesel or hydrogen, powered electric car is a diesel- or fuel-cell-electric vehicle.
- A fuel, e.g. [diesel], powered hybrid is a [diesel]-hybrid.
- A fuel and electric powered hybrid car is a plug-in.
- A fuel and electric powered electric car might go by different names, such as a Rex BEV if it has a large battery or a plug-in fuel-electric for small battery.

Such definitions are not set in stone, of course, and you might even disagree. But that only goes to show not to assume others are clear what is being discussed.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=398314900319721&substory_index=0&id=119243431560204" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Supermarket H2

 

[Zythryn]

Completely twisted, no, make that broken logic.
A fuel cell vehicle takes hydrogen as fuel, not electricity.
Do you call a Ford Mustang an electric car because it has a 12V battery?

Sorry, reducing to the absurd isn't applicable.
...

I agree completely, which is exactly what I was trying to show GRA through example.

I still hold that the least confusing method is to classify vehicles by the fuel used;

a gas car,
a diesel truck,
an electric Leaf,
a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle,
etc, etc.

 

[AndyH]

Completely twisted, no, make that broken logic.
A fuel cell vehicle takes hydrogen as fuel, not electricity.
Do you call a Ford Mustang an electric car because it has a 12V battery?

Sorry, reducing to the absurd isn't applicable.
...

I agree completely, which is exactly what I was trying to show GRA through example.

I still hold that the least confusing method is to classify vehicles by the fuel used;

a gas car,
a diesel truck,
an electric Leaf,
a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle,
etc, etc.

While you've held to your talking point very well, you didn't answer my question: Would you consider a vehicle with no ICE, an electric traction motor, inverter, and a rapidly refillable flow battery to be a BEV?

 

[Zythryn]

While you've held to your talking point very well, you didn't answer my question: Would you consider a vehicle with no ICE, an electric traction motor, inverter, and a rapidly refillable flow battery to be a BEV?

My apologies.
Frankly, I'm not sure what they would be called.
The typical classifications I have heard are EV, PHEV, Hybrid, Gas and Diesel.
I would be tempted to classify it as a subset of EVs although with the "fuel" being a pair of liquid chemicals and not electricity, perhaps it would get its own classification?

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of giving it a seperate category all its own as the fueling medium is so different.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Show me a practical, affordable hydrogen fuel cell car, and I'll buy it and park it next to my unicorn.

 

[AndyH]

Show me a practical, affordable hydrogen fuel cell car, and I'll buy it and park it next to my unicorn.

That's a pretty large target to hit, Neil - care to narrow the weasel words a tad? "Practical" for what mission? "Affordable" for whom? And finally, how old is the unicorn?

 

[GRA]

...
Oh, and when somebody chimes in to tell me that an H2 car is an "electric vehicle", yes it it, as soon as you take away the hybrid part... hydrogen.

Does that mean that a BEV is an electric vehicle as soon as you take away the electric infrastructure that charges it, the majority of which is fossil-fueled in the U.S.? Is a streetcar, subway car or electric train only an electric vehicle ditto? Is a diesel-electric submarine running on the batteries an electric vehicle, or do you have to remove the diesel engine that recharges the batteries first?
...

Completely twisted, no, make that broken logic.
A fuel cell vehicle takes hydrogen as fuel, not electricity.
Do you call a Ford Mustang an electric car because it has a 12V battery?

No, it just recognizes that electricity has to come from somewhere, and you can't ignore the infrastructure needed to make it. If the vehicle is propelled by an electric motor it's an electric vehicle in my book, no matter how or where that electricity is generated.

As to a Mustang and all modern ICEs, "Every year the gas car becomes more electrical, and its electrical functions more important." [Editorial on "The Electrified Gas Car" in 'Electric Vehicles', 1917]. I agree with David Kirsch's definition of current ICEs as electrified gas hybrids, as they won't work at all without their electrical systems as well as being far less capable/comfortable without them. Of course, you could remove all of the auxiliary electrical systems from them as well as their ignition systems and return to hot pipe ignition, but that's not going to happen. Let's see, what would that entail?

Electric-powered windshield wipers and washer pumps, gone. Electric window defrosters, wiper and mirror heaters, gone. Electric lights, ditto. Infotainment/Nav systems, power mirrors, remote door lock/unlock/starting/pre-conditioning, electric starters, AC and electric fans, alternator and batteries, ignition system, USB and 12V receptacles, cigarette lighters (I guess you can still order them), heated seats and steering wheels, cruise control (especially adaptive), lane departure warning, auto-braking, auto-parking, all gone. Yes, a return to car capability circa 1910 is possible, but unlikely to meet with customer approval.

 

[GRA]

Everybody is pretty clear about what type of vehicle that we are talking about when they say "hydrogen".

One person on their own might be clear in their own mind, but they might well be talking about a different thing to someone else. Sorry, no, I don't think 'people' are that clear.

An effective FCEV will have a limited power generating capacity and a suitably sized battery pack. We're talking much more than a regular 'hybrid'. 6 to 10 kWh will need to be the size of the battery pack in an efficient FCEV capable of performing the world's various more demanding economy cycles.

If you have less than 6kWh then you end up needing a larger fuel cell, which in turn means you will be operating it off maximum efficiency, etc, etc. There are a lot of knock-on consequences.

So, no, I don't think people are clear on what an FCEV is. Even vehicle manufacturers and engineers aren't, because you can have all sorts of flavours ranging from a very small battery and very large fuel cell, i.e. almost entirely 'a fuel cell' car, to a very small cell and very large battery pack which you're more likely to describe as an FC Rex BEV.

An electric car is one where the traction is delivered by electric motor power alone. It is not a description founded on the energy source of the power.

A hybrid is where the traction power is blended electric motor and ICE power.

It goes something like:-
- An electric powered electric car is a BEV.
- A fuel, e.g. diesel or hydrogen, powered electric car is a diesel- or fuel-cell-electric vehicle.
- A fuel, e.g. [diesel], powered hybrid is a [diesel]-hybrid.
- A fuel and electric powered hybrid car is a plug-in.
- A fuel and electric powered electric car might go by different names, such as a Rex BEV if it has a large battery or a plug-in fuel-electric for small battery.

Such definitions are not set in stone, of course, and you might even disagree. But that only goes to show not to assume others are clear what is being discussed.

Most of us here know that current and soon to be available FCVs are all FCHVs, i.e. they all use a battery pack for acceleration and regen braking. There have been pure FCEVs in the past decade or two, but the ramp rate of PEM fuel cells is (at the moment) too slow to be practical without a battery to provide bursts of power on short notice, and they have no way to store energy from regenerative braking. I think it will take at least one more iteration of both fuel cells and batteries for them to achieve the power and energy densities and costs to make a PHFCEV practical and affordable for passenger cars, although they can work now for cargo vehicles (and are being trialed for that purpose), which have more space available and where the cost issues aren't paramount. But that's a ways from commercial viability.

 

[GRA]

Why would the hydrogen folks want to be identified as "electric"? I thought you were convinced hydrogen is "better", like Toyota, et al, thinks and has convinced CARB to think.

I've never seen a blurt out of Toyota when they are frequently diss-ing on electric cars clarify that to mean electric cars that are refueled with hydrogen.

Heck, I guess we can start calling ICE vehicles what they really are; gasoline fueled compression / spark ignition piston engine powered.

Anyhoo, it's all silly argument. Everybody is pretty clear about what type of vehicle that we are talking about when they say "hydrogen". The only two basic variables for basic understanding are whether it is a fuel cell or a piston engine.

Tony, where has anyone in this thread said that fuel cells are 'better'? I've seen Toyota say that they believe that given current batteries the capabilities of BEVs aren't as acceptable to the mass market as FCV's capabilities are now (I happen to agree at the moment, but that could change), but that hasn't stopped them from continuing to work on battery development, especially solid-state batteries. That isn't dissing in my book, just stating their best commercial judgement, which they have backed with several billion dollars and two decades of development. We'll see if they're right or not over the next decade or so.

 

[GRA]

Show me a practical, affordable hydrogen fuel cell car, and I'll buy it and park it next to my unicorn.

That's a pretty large target to hit, Neil - care to narrow the weasel words a tad? "Practical" for what mission? "Affordable" for whom? And finally, how old is the unicorn?

Ageist! :lol:

 

[GRA]

Here's a couple of GCC articles:

DOE seeking feedback on findings of hydrogen production and delivery workshops

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141029-doeh2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A couple of quotes:

The US Department of Energy's Fuel Cell Technologies Office has issued two requests for information (RFIs) seeking feedback from the research community and relevant stakeholders about electrolytic hydrogen production (DE-FOA-0001188) and hydrogen delivery research, development, and demonstration (RD&D) activities (DE-FOA-0001187) aimed at developing technologies that can ultimately produce and deliver low-cost hydrogen.

and

DOE is also interested in the community’s opinion of the technologies that have the most potential to meet DOE goals of producing low-cost hydrogen at $2.30/kg for forecourt (1,500 kg/day) and $2.00/kg for centralized (50,000 kg/day) by 2020, and reducing hydrogen delivery from the point of production to the point of use in consumer vehicles to <$3/gallon of gasoline equivalent (gge) by 2015 and to <$2/gge by 2020 (delivery only, all costs in 2007$).

DOE launches $1M H2 Refuel H-Prize for small-scale hydrogen refueling

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/10/20141029-h2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Short quote:

The US Department of Energy’s (DOE) Fuel Cell Technologies Office (FCTO) and the Hydrogen Education Foundation (HEF) launched the $1-million H2 Refuel H-Prize. The two-year competition challenges America’s engineers and entrepreneurs to develop affordable systems for small-scale hydrogen fueling. This H-Prize competition is intended to assist in expanding the hydrogen infrastructure across the country to support more transportation energy options for US consumers, including fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs).

The H2 Refuel H-Prize will award a $1-million prize to the top refueler system entry that can produce hydrogen using electricity and/or natural gas (energy sources commonly available to residential locations) and dispense the hydrogen to a vehicle. Systems considered would be at the home-scale and able to generate and dispense 1-5 kg H2/day for use at residences, or the medium-scale, generating and dispensing 5-50 kg H2/day. Medium-scale systems would serve a larger community with multiple users daily, such as a large apartment complex or retail centers to fuel small fleets of vehicles (e.g., light duty automobiles, forklifts or tractors).

 

[smkettner]

Why would the hydrogen folks want to be identified as "electric"? I thought you were convinced hydrogen is "better", like Toyota, et al, thinks and has convinced CARB to think.

Smoothest quiet effortless power from an electric motor is what they are identifying with.
Not the fuel.

 

[Zythryn]

No, it just recognizes that electricity has to come from somewhere, and you can't ignore the infrastructure needed to make it. If the vehicle is propelled by an electric motor it's an electric vehicle in my book, no matter how or where that electricity is generated.

As to a Mustang and all modern ICEs, "Every year the gas car becomes more electrical, and its electrical functions more important." [Editorial on "The Electrified Gas Car" in 'Electric Vehicles', 1917]. I agree with David Kirsch's definition of current ICEs as electrified gas hybrids, as they won't work at all without their electrical systems as well as being far less capable/comfortable without them. Of course, you could remove all of the auxiliary electrical systems from them as well as their ignition systems and return to hot pipe ignition, but that's not going to happen. Let's see, what would that entail?

Electric-powered windshield wipers and washer pumps, gone. Electric window defrosters, wiper and mirror heaters, gone. Electric lights, ditto. Infotainment/Nav systems, power mirrors, remote door lock/unlock/starting/pre-conditioning, electric starters, AC and electric fans, alternator and batteries, ignition system, USB and 12V receptacles, cigarette lighters (I guess you can still order them), heated seats and steering wheels, cruise control (especially adaptive), lane departure warning, auto-braking, auto-parking, all gone. Yes, a return to car capability circa 1910 is possible, but unlikely to meet with customer approval.

You are broadening the definition of "EV" to uselessness as a classification.
Would you then call a Volt an EV?

 

[GRA]

No, it just recognizes that electricity has to come from somewhere, and you can't ignore the infrastructure needed to make it. If the vehicle is propelled by an electric motor it's an electric vehicle in my book, no matter how or where that electricity is generated.

As to a Mustang and all modern ICEs, "Every year the gas car becomes more electrical, and its electrical functions more important." [Editorial on "The Electrified Gas Car" in 'Electric Vehicles', 1917]. I agree with David Kirsch's definition of current ICEs as electrified gas hybrids, as they won't work at all without their electrical systems as well as being far less capable/comfortable without them. Of course, you could remove all of the auxiliary electrical systems from them as well as their ignition systems and return to hot pipe ignition, but that's not going to happen. Let's see, what would that entail?

Electric-powered windshield wipers and washer pumps, gone. Electric window defrosters, wiper and mirror heaters, gone. Electric lights, ditto. Infotainment/Nav systems, power mirrors, remote door lock/unlock/starting/pre-conditioning, electric starters, AC and electric fans, alternator and batteries, ignition system, USB and 12V receptacles, cigarette lighters (I guess you can still order them), heated seats and steering wheels, cruise control (especially adaptive), lane departure warning, auto-braking, auto-parking, all gone. Yes, a return to car capability circa 1910 is possible, but unlikely to meet with customer approval.

You are broadening the definition of "EV" to uselessness as a classification.
Would you then call a Volt an EV?

Of course I'd call it an EV, specifically a PHEV (as Chevy would have it, an EREV), as a subset of the larger category of PEV, which includes both BEVs, PHEVs and eventually PHFCEVs. And an FCEV, with or without a 'P' or 'H', is an EV, and an HEV is an EV - the EV at the end is kind of a giveaway. They are all propelled by an electric motor or motors, either alone or in combination with an ICE. As opposed to the electrified gas hybrid (aka ICE), which although it's totally dependent on its electrical system for basic function as well as most auxiliary systems, isn't propelled by an electric motor and thus isn't an EV. So, if it makes it easier for you, for EV read "Electric Drive" or "Electrically propelled", with all others letters just telling you the specific flavor of EV.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, where has anyone in this thread said that fuel cells are 'better'? I've seen Toyota say that they believe that given current batteries the capabilities of BEVs aren't as acceptable to the mass market as FCV's capabilities are now (I happen to agree at the moment, but that could change), but that hasn't stopped them from continuing to work on battery development, especially solid-state batteries. That isn't dissing in my book, just stating their best commercial judgement, which they have backed with several billion dollars and two decades of development. We'll see if they're right or not over the next decade or so.

The guys at Toyota aren't mincing words about EV are bad, hydrogen good. If you haven't seen this, I guess I'm too lazy to dig it up right now.

Neither hydrogen, nor batteries have the price point yet for mass consumption. Batteries will be there at the current trajectory by about 2020-2030.

All the hydrogen issues aside except cost, are we "there" with hydrogen before batteries, after, or never? I suspect I'm being charitable if I say merely "after battery cars".

And therein lies the absolute singular issue. How long will auto makers and governments subsidize H2?

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Hydrogen fuel cell cars will not happen on a wide scale.

Hydrogen is hard to make.

Hydrogen is incredibly difficult to transport.

Hydrogen is expensive - more expensive than gasoline.

Hydrogen is much less energy efficient that electricity.

Hydrogen is explosive, and incredibly acidic.

Hydrogen is not a fuel - it is an energy storage medium.

Hydrogen has about TWELVE public filling stations in the US. Some of those can service just 15 cars a DAY.

Who will pay for the infrastructure?

Fuel cells don't last very long.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars will not happen on a wide scale.



There - succinct enough for you?