LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

fotajoye said:

Don't be concerned that Nissan incorporate thermal management. If they don't have it, just buy an EV car that does. By 2018 you will have more choices. I'm thinking the 2018 IONIQ Electric with the promised 200 mile plus battery, might be worthy of a good examination.

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Ioniq is a compliance car. Not a purpose built EV. Batteries strewn all over the place, not at the bottom.

I think of compliance cars as existing ICE vehicles that are retrofitted for an EV powertrain. Cars like the Ioniq and eGolf that are designed from the beginning to accept EV as well as ICE drivetrains are, IMO, "real" EVs, even when the sales strategy is one of ZEV compliance.

Initially, the IONIQ will be sold for EV emission credits; however, look for the long range model to be sold in 2018 as an all states EV.

I bet/hope Leaf2 will have well made air circulation in the battery. That requires a little more
complicated cell placement but overall doesn't add weight nor price. Might make battery
less compact.
Mitsubitshi iMiEV almost had a good system. Unfortunately they forgot to make good brains
for that system. Taking chilled air from AC is really cheap and efficient idea. Actually it is
possible to make it as powerful as liquid cooled battery. Requires some ventilation vents and two
additional flaps for AC system.
I'm convinced that even I could design cooling system for less than 500$ and 20kg per vehicle,
that is capable to extract 1,5kW of heat.

Even better/cheaper than this.

edatoakrun said:

Durandal said:

...Every other BEV on the market has active thermal management..

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False

="Durandal"

... and as a result the batteries don't degrade like on the Leaf...

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False

="Durandal"

...Why would you NOT want active thermal management?

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Because the evidence available to date is that insulating the battery pack and adding a coolant loop from the air conditioning system degrades overall BEV performance and efficiency, with marginal improvements (if any) on battery life in hot climates:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

Durandal said:

...there should be a 30kWh version along with the 40kWh version. But I will have absolutely NO interest if they don't integrate a liquid cooling system for the batteries, because the next EV I purchase, I fully expect to last me 200,000 miles.

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It is very unlikely that any 30 kWh to 40 kWh Battery pack in a vehicle the size of any four + seat BEV available today will have greater than 70% of it's original capacity (EOL) after ~200k miles of normal driving, due to the large number of charge cycles required to cover that many miles.

The additional cycling required by active cooling may accelerate battery degradation slightly, or by reducing pack temperature increase battery life slightly, depending on the ATM design and specific operating conditions.

In terms of energy efficiency and total cost over the life of the BEV, it is hard to imagine any operating conditions where pack insulation and liquid cooling will provide any actual benefits, so I doubt the GEN 2 LEAF will use it.

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As someone who considered buying a Leaf and decided not to buy it mostly due to too many stories about battery capacity loss, I wont buy any EV that doesnt have active (preferably liquid) cooling of battery pack - unless car maker provides a hell of a better warranty than what Nissan currently offers (warranty that I would consider acceptable would be 10 years 200K miles 80% capacity).

Its up to each car maker to determine they design and warranty - but if customers are not happy with car makers decision(s) they are likely to buy from someone else.

Rebel44 said:

As someone who considered buying a Leaf and decided not to buy it mostly due to too many stories about battery capacity loss, I wont buy any EV that doesnt have active (preferably liquid) cooling of battery pack - unless car maker provides a hell of a better warranty than what Nissan currently offers (warranty that I would consider acceptable would be 10 years 200K miles 80% capacity).

Its up to each car maker to determine they design and warranty - but if customers are not happy with car makers decision(s) they are likely to buy from someone else.

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problem with that ideology is as time passes, that becomes less and less a priority. Even Tesla says it sees a day when it won't be needed

Rebel44 said:

As someone who considered buying a Leaf and decided not to buy it mostly due to too many stories about battery capacity loss, I wont buy any EV that doesnt have active (preferably liquid) cooling of battery pack...

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Liquid cooling isn't a magic bullet. Insulation and liquid cooling keep battery temperature lower in hot places, and higher in cool places. Temperature matters. The expectation is that passive cooling is more reliable, uses less energy and will provide better battery life in cool places.

Battery life is complex: a lot of other things matter as well as temperature. Chemistry, charging, discharging, balancing, and so on.

I'm happy I bought a Leaf, but then I live in a cool climate. The threshold for battery cooling in a Volt is about 86F. My Leaf battery has only briefly gotten over 86F. In the summertime, it is usually in the 70's. The battery cooling if similar to a Volt would almost never turn on for my Leaf.

WetEV said:

Rebel44 said:

As someone who considered buying a Leaf and decided not to buy it mostly due to too many stories about battery capacity loss, I wont buy any EV that doesnt have active (preferably liquid) cooling of battery pack...

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Liquid cooling isn't a magic bullet. Insulation and liquid cooling keep battery temperature lower in hot places, and higher in cool places. Temperature matters. The expectation is that passive cooling is more reliable, uses less energy and will provide better battery life in cool places.

Battery life is complex: a lot of other things matter as well as temperature. Chemistry, charging, discharging, balancing, and so on.

I'm happy I bought a Leaf, but then I live in a cool climate. The threshold for battery cooling in a Volt is about 86F. My Leaf battery has only briefly gotten over 86F. In the summertime, it is usually in the 70's. The battery cooling if similar to a Volt would almost never turn on for my Leaf.

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BUT...

I also live in a cool area that is "very" similar to yours and I had my pack hit the mid 80's the other day on a fast charge that lasted 29 mins but was able to gain 20 kwh as a benefit of a steeper charging curve the 30 kwh pack provides. Granted, not cold with temps in upper 40's but was at 4 TBs when I started, 6 TBs when finished. It would be easy to imagine hitting 90+ if a 2nd fast charge was needed

Rebel44 said:

As someone who considered buying a Leaf and decided not to buy it mostly due to too many stories about battery capacity loss...

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There certainly are a great number of "stories about battery capacity loss", many of which originated on this forum, and generally from those gullible enough to believe in the accuracy of the capacity reports from the LEAF LBC/BMS.

And there are also plenty of "stories about battery capacity loss" for other BEVs, many of which are just as unreliable.

I'd suggest you instead rely on higher integrity evidence, such as the battery capacity and energy use data reported by the AVTA, which, so far, doesn't seem to prove any clear benefits from ATM in an extremely hot climate, Phoenix :

edatoakrun said:

the evidence available to date is that insulating the battery pack and adding a coolant loop from the air conditioning system degrades overall BEV performance and efficiency, with marginal improvements (if any) on battery life in hot climates:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

...In terms of energy efficiency and total cost over the life of the BEV, it is hard to imagine any operating conditions where pack insulation and liquid cooling will provide any actual benefits, so I doubt the GEN 2 LEAF will use it.

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Remember however, that even if one pack design is determined to be preferable in a climate this extreme, the data will not necessarily support using the same TM system in all locations, the vast majority of which have much lower ambient temperatures.

And as costs and heat generated by battery packs decreases and energy density increases in the future, the benefits of any active cooling systems will tend to decline.

So, IMO there is little doubt that BEV packs will not use active cooling in the near future, unless battery designs which require cooling to prevent pack fires continue to be manufactured.

TM providing active heating is a different question.

edatoakrun said:

the evidence available to date is that insulating the battery pack and adding a coolant loop from the air conditioning system degrades overall BEV performance and efficiency, with marginal improvements (if any) on battery life in hot climates:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

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That link doesn't take me to anywhere that proves what you are saying. Can you be more specific?

Stoaty said:

edatoakrun said:

the evidence available to date is that insulating the battery pack and adding a coolant loop from the air conditioning system degrades overall BEV performance and efficiency, with marginal improvements (if any) on battery life in hot climates:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

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That link doesn't take me to anywhere that proves what you are saying...

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That link takes you to the directory from which you can look up the energy use and battery capacity loss for the AVTAs test fleets of 13 different model/year BEVs and many other PHEVs sold in the USA.

I suggest you look at all the BEV test results, and the PHEV results as well, if you are considering getting one.

quote="Stoaty"
...Can you be more specific?

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You might begin by looking at results for the three similar-sized BEVs with the most data, the 2013 LEAF with an uninsulated pack and passive TM, the 2013 Focus with active liquid cooling and an insulated (?) pack, and the 2015 Kia Soul with an uninsulated (?) pack and rudimentary (cabin air) cooling.

Of course there are many other variations in design and AVTA use that will affect efficiency and capacity loss over time.

A few comments made on other threads summarizing the results at earlier data points:

AVTA capacity/range/efficiency tests of four 2013 LEAFs

edatoakrun said:

Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:49 pm

A few more capacity tests (ICD 2) have been posted, for only two (VIN 5045, VIN 7885) of the four 2013's so far, and they are, IMO, not pretty to look at:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/batteryLeaf5045.pdf"
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/batteryLeaf7885.pdf"

At least these two 2013's seem be losing capacity (as a function of miles driven) even faster, on average, than the 2012's in the previous torture test:

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/vehiclebatteries/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_EOT.pdf

So, if some of the later 2013 LEAF batteries were improved over 2011-2012, these two packs sure don't look to me like they made the cut.,,

BTW, for some reason the AVTA put ~twice the miles on these four 2013 LEAFs Between March and July, as the rest of the year, which probably had some deleterious effects on capacity by increasing battery temperatures:

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/ar2013NissanLeafBEV.pdf"

Hopefully, we'll eventually get battery temperatures, charging practices, and other data that might give a more complete view of what's going on with these four LEAFs.

All ATVA BEV testing links here:

http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml"

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18555

Official Ford Focus Electric Thread

edatoakrun said:

Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

News from AVTA testing of pack capacity loss for 2013 FFEs conducted in the extreme Phoenix climate.

ICD 2 results (after ~14 months and ~12,000 miles, from baseline) for two of the FFEs have been posted, and show ~10% capacity loss so far:

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/batteryFocus1700.pdf"
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/batteryFocus2578.pdf"

So, IMO these very preliminary results suggest the FFE battery pack's ATM may produce limited benefits (when considering differences in time, miles, and seasonality) over the results now showing up for the 2013 LEAFs, as discussed:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18555&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We should know a lot more when the results for more of the packs, over the longer terms, are posted.

All reports for all tested BEVs available at the main page here:

http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml"

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6641&hilit=focus+ford+focus+battery&start=580

Official Kia Soul EV thread

edatoakrun said:

Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:15 pm

Looks like the AVTA (2015) Soul Fleet (three out of four reporting) lost (on average) something over 10% of their baseline battery capacity over ~11 months and ~12,000 miles of use...In Phoenix.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

Not enough data yet (IMO) to make a valid comparison to the (2013 is the most recent MY) LEAF capacity loss results.

On the positive side, The 2015 Soul E's seem to be using only ~5% more Wh/mile than the 2013 LEAFs, so their rudimentary ATM systems don't seem to impose the large efficiency penalty as does the Ford Focus E's (which seems to require ~20% greater Wh/m than the LEAFs) the only other BEV with a ~year or more of AVTA battery results posted.

IMO, it is likely that a few years from now the AVTA data from Phoenix will show that if you live in any climate this hot (and especially if you utilize high kWh throughput in the Summer) you will either have to pay a hell of a lot to cool your pack, or you will have to accept considerably faster degradation than that experienced by BEVs in cooler climates.

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13531&hilit=kia+soul&start=1000

BTW, for some reason the AVTA put ~twice the miles on these four 2013 LEAFs Between March and July, as the rest of the year, which probably had some deleterious effects on capacity by increasing battery temperatures:

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Just passing through, but I'd like to note that if they had the Leafs to test in March of 2013, then they have the previous 'Canary Pack' chemistry, not the later 2013-2014 improved chemistry. The improved chemistry wasn't used until April of 2013.

edatoakrun said:

...

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edatoakrun,

Thanks for posting more direct links the second time around. I'm very surprised at the losses on the Ford, I figured that the capacity losses on it would be in line with what I had read for the losses on Tesla vehicles. (Which for the Teslas, I remember having read something on the order of 5-8% capacity loss at mileages over 80,000 miles.)

https://electrek.co/2016/06/06/tesla-model-s-battery-pack-data-degradation/

Mind you the numbers in the link above are not pulling the actual battery capacity, but instead are mileage availability estimates that are reported by drivers, but it should still be a relatively good indication. I looked at the info for the Telsa on the site that you provided, but it did not have any capacity loss information that I could see for the Tesla.

I do agree that ATM adds complexity, and that may or may not be required, depending on climate. I do think that ATM can be accomplished in a more efficient way than is done in some examples. If you live in an environment where the ambient temperature is above 90F on a regular basis, your batteries are not going to have a good time unless significant advances in battery chemistry are made. Batteries, like many things, don't appreciate heat. In our server rooms, when ambient temperatures exceed 90F, alarms start going off and we usually consider shutting down equipment, with 68-70F considered the optimal ambient temperature.

I gather from reading your posts in this thread that you consider battery chemistry improvement as the best solution. As a long term option, I would agree, but we shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of the good. Possibly the best option until the chemistry gets to where we need it to be, is more climate appropriate packages, such as insulated packs for cold climate areas with battery heaters, and liquid cooling packs in hot climate areas. Battery chemistry improvements are a slow, plodding, but steady area of improvement, as the construction and formulas are constantly tweaked and improved.

Anyhow, thanks again for posting some good info.

Durandal said:

edatoakrun said:

...

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edatoakrun,

Thanks for posting more direct links the second time around. I'm very surprised at the losses on the Ford, I figured that the capacity losses on it would be in line with what I had read for the losses on Tesla vehicles. (Which for the Teslas, I remember having read something on the order of 5-8% capacity loss at mileages over 80,000 miles.) <snip>

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It should be noted that Ford's TMS allows the pack to get much hotter than GM's does before cooling kicks in.

First news reports on the LEAF Gen 3, coming in 2020 or later?

I hope that the Leaf face lift planned in 2018. is more than just a nose job (Tesla S) and actually is a significant improvement , and will be launched in the 2018 MY, and far earlier than January 2018.

Renault and Nissan will use common platform for EVs

PARIS -- Renault and Nissan will build the next Zoe and Leaf electric cars on a new common platform.

The cars will have different exterior styling but will share underpinnings and electric motors, said Arnaud Deboeuf, senior vice president of Renault-Nissan BV, the alliance's strategic management unit...

He also declined to give a timescale for the launch of the new Leaf and Zoe, but said it will happen after a Leaf facelift planned in 2018.

French media reports said the Zoe will be the first Renault-Nissan alliance model to use the new EV architecture, but not before 2020.

Renault and Nissan might continue to use different battery cells but no decision has been taken, Deboeuf told reporters at a media event in Paris. The Leaf uses in-house, comparatively low-density LMO lithium chemistry. Renault buys cells from LG Chem. Nissan has not decided whether to continue to produce its own cells or buy them...

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http://www.autonews.com/article/20161213/COPY01/312139967/renault-and-nissan-will-use-common-platform-for-evs

The arguments over water cooled packs is interesting but the approach is poor: comparing vehicle models from different manufacturers introduces *way* too many variables. E.g., it could be that *despite* using a superior cooling architecture, a car manufacturer make enough other bad choices to overall end up with an inferior battery.

The consumer in me says to just look at the warranty. To my knowledge Nissan has the absolute worse warranty at up to 1/3rd range loss in the first 5 years/60k miles. GM is not far behind with the Bolt at up to 40% range loss within 100k miles.

The battery warrenty on my 2015 is 8 years or 180,000km.

NavyCuda said:

The battery warrenty on my 2015 is 8 years or 180,000km.

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Yes, but what is it warranted for? That it will have at least 9 bars during that time... but the definition of 9 bars is not in the warranty is it?

I honestly don't care what's the exact wording of the warranty, I was satisfied with it when I bought the car, end of story.

I'm only pointing out that at least here in Canada the lifespan of the battery warranty is longer than the warranty on the rest of the car. So the claim that the Leaf has the worst warranty is false unless the person making that claim can actually substantiate it.

I mostly hate this forum, filled with some of the most self-righteous do-gooders that are completely disconnected from the real world.

My Leaf works, it's reliable and so far after 45,000km I haven't lost a bar. I will replace this Leaf with another Leaf in the future when 60kWh is available and I won't care about the warranty on that battery either.

This car has saved me so much money, the battery could pop the day after the warranty runs out and I'd still be ahead and still wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.

NavyCuda said:

I honestly don't care what's the exact wording of the warranty, I was satisfied with it when I bought the car, end of story.

I'm only pointing out that at least here in Canada the lifespan of the battery warranty is longer than the warranty on the rest of the car. So the claim that the Leaf has the worst warranty is false unless the person making that claim can actually substantiate it.

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See http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4911&p=9357&hilit=battery+warranty#p9353

for a comparison of capacity warranties. The Soul has the best one, the 24kWh LEAF the worst of those cars that warranty degradation (the only reason the 24kWh battery LEAF HAS a capacity warranty is due to members of this forum demonstrating and documenting rapid capacity loss in moderate to hot climates in a very public way during a meeting with Nissan in Phoenix, along with a class action lawsuit).