LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

[Stoaty]

I honestly don't care what's the exact wording of the warranty, I was satisfied with it when I bought the car, end of story.

You can afford not to care, because you live in an ideal climate for a BEV. In hotter climates, it is much more of an issue. I have lost 29% of capacity in 5.5 years, and the utility of the Leaf is getting marginal for some of my uses. This in spite of babying my Leaf, keep the SOC as low as reasonably possible, no QC (don't have it).

 

[NavyCuda]

That list is not accurate for the Canadian market.

 

[NavyCuda]

I honestly don't care what's the exact wording of the warranty, I was satisfied with it when I bought the car, end of story.

You can afford not to care, because you live in an ideal climate for a BEV. In hotter climates, it is much more of an issue. I have lost 29% of capacity in 5.5 years, and the utility of the Leaf is getting marginal for some of my uses. This in spite of babying my Leaf, keep the SOC as low as reasonably possible, no QC (don't have it).

Maybe you're not treating your battery correctly. Mine is fully charged twice a day and sits fully charged on the weekends.

 

[Stoaty]

Maybe you're not treating your battery correctly. Mine is fully charged twice a day and sits fully charged on the weekends.

We've been through this many times over the years. There are 3 things that affect battery degradation:

1) Heat
2) Heat
3) Heat

Everything else has only a minor effect. If you had been reading here, you would already know this. You live in an ideal climate because it doesn't get hot like Phoenix or (to a lesser extent but significant) Los Angeles valleys. The latter is where my Leaf spends much of its time.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Maybe you're not treating your battery correctly. Mine is fully charged twice a day and sits fully charged on the weekends.

We've been through this many times over the years. There are 3 things that affect battery degradation:

1) Heat
2) Heat
3) Heat

Everything else has only a minor effect. If you had been reading here, you would already know this. You live in an ideal climate because it doesn't get hot like Phoenix or (to a lesser extent but significant) Los Angeles valleys. The latter is where my Leaf spends much of its time.

not true. in some areas the #1 degradation factor is time. There is someone who recently lost their first capacity bar and they have 11,000 miles on their car... unless they park in an easy bake oven, it wasn't heat that took the bar

 

[Stoaty]

not true. in some areas the #1 degradation factor is time. There is someone who recently lost their first capacity bar and they have 11,000 miles on their car... unless they park in an easy bake oven, it wasn't heat that took the bar

Yes, for areas that don't have #1-#3 to deal with #4 would definitely be time, which will jump to the front of the line with #1-#3 are absent.

 

[NavyCuda]

I think people have the wrong idea about batteries. In practical use I've found batteries that are used daily and go through regular charging cycles last longer and are more reliable than batteries that spend most of their time idle at a set charge.

So depending on the time of year I use 50-80% capacity twice a day, effectively pulling and disharging more than the capacity of the battery. It is allowed to fully charge and equalize. I've found the car gets to 100% and then balanced faster than when it was new and faster than two loaner leafs while mine was in the body shop.

I do 30,000+km a year.

 

[Stoaty]

I think people have the wrong idea about batteries. In practical use I've found batteries that are used daily and go through regular charging cycles last longer and are more reliable than batteries that spend most of their time idle at a set charge.

So depending on the time of year I use 50-80% capacity twice a day, effectively pulling and disharging more than the capacity of the battery. It is allowed to fully charge and equalize. I've found the car gets to 100% and then balanced faster than when it was new and faster than two loaner leafs while mine was in the body shop.

I do 30,000+km a year.

As I said previously, we have been through this many times over the years. What you describe does not apply to Lithium ion batteries. See the link in my signature for details (Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet).

 

[NavyCuda]

As I said previously, we have been through this many times over the years. What you describe does not apply to Lithium ion batteries. See the link in my signature for details (Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet).

I've had 7 iphones, as well as lithium ion powered notebooks, motorla VHF hand held radios and now a Leaf. I'm speaking from practical experience. The total lifespan of the VHF radios that spent most of their time sitting was measureably less than those that were used daily. No i haven't measured output, consumption and exact run times however I can notice when something takes less time to charge and lasts longer on a charge, over multiple years worth of cycles.

 

[webeleafowners]

As I said previously, we have been through this many times over the years. What you describe does not apply to Lithium ion batteries. See the link in my signature for details (Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet).

I've had 7 iphones, as well as lithium ion powered notebooks, motorla VHF hand held radios and now a Leaf. I'm speaking from practical experience. The total lifespan of the VHF radios that spent most of their time sitting was measureably less than those that were used daily. No i haven't measured output, consumption and exact run times however I can notice when something takes less time to charge and lasts longer on a charge, over multiple years worth of cycles.

Interesting comment. I have an iphone 4s (ready for the museum). It gets discharged everyday to about 10 percent. I have never really noticed a change in the battery performance in what, 5 years now??? Crazy. Less and less apps will run on it though. sigh.....

 

[SageBrush]

I honestly don't care what's the exact wording of the warranty,
...
My Leaf works, it's reliable and so far after 45,000km I haven't lost a bar.

Would you care about the warranty if your range had already degraded 30% ?

 

[NavyCuda]

I honestly don't care what's the exact wording of the warranty,
...
My Leaf works, it's reliable and so far after 45,000km I haven't lost a bar.

Would you care about the warranty if your range had already degraded 30% ?

I honestly can't say because my battery has not degraded. I also considered battery degredation plus wintet conditiond when I bought the car, so 30% loss would still leave me some breathing room for my commute. 30% loss plus winter conditions was my ceiling and by my rough maths, that gave me enough distance for my commute. Given how many KM I have on the car already and its performance to date, I honestly believe I will replace this car before degradation becomes much of a factor for me.

I spent weeks thinking about the leaf, planning for the worst case and getting to understand the limitations of the car. So I have nothing to complain about.

 

[SageBrush]

I also considered battery degredation plus winter conditions when I bought the car, so 30% loss would still leave me some breathing room for my commute. 30% loss plus winter conditions was my ceiling and by my rough maths, that gave me enough distance for my commute.

Meaning you knew enough to not depend on the warranty.

I am doing the same but it does not change the fact that the warranty is quite poor and it probably represents the unfortunate fact that the battery cannot be depended on to age gracefully without substantial care and feeding, even in fairly moderate climates. On my drive home from work today I was thinking that I am lucky to be able to 1, charge at night; 2, be able to park the car in shade almost it's entire life; 3, drive with a decline when the battery is warmest and that my uphill commute is during the cool morning hours; 4, not have to charge above 80%; and not drive more than an hour at a time. While none of the above are driving restrictions, they matter in this car. That is quite telling.

 

[NavyCuda]

I don't understand why people only charge to 80%... One of the most important things is making sure the cells are properly balanced and this is true of all battery types.

I also don't understand why people make such a big deal about degradation, it's a fact of life with all battery types. It's a fact of life with a number of things. In the lighting world, the lumin output and loss is clearly identified on the packaging. With the Leaf, acceptable loss from the manufacturers stand point is clearly identified by the warranty. Nissan has no way to know how the end user will care for the battery, they must set a threshold to decide when to replace the battery.

The whole concept of battery degradation, failure rates and lifespans has been known for over a century, at least with lead acid batteries.

Expecting a perfect battery, with little or no loss is naive.

It had nothing to do with knowing not to depend on the warranty, that is frankly a stupid argument. It was knowing that I must consider the maximum rate of degradation that isn't covered by the warranty. That's called being an educated consumer without having unrealistic expectations of the manufacturer. If my battery degrades beyond the rate specified by Nissan, within the allotted time frame, they will replace it. It's simple math. I don't remember the numbers any more, but if Nissan says 35% degradation is acceptable by the end of my warranty and my battery has degraded 34%, I'm not going to complain or even attempt a warranty claim.

Batteries have a finite lifespan. They are a consumable. I've managed to get 15+ years out of one of my 12v AGM batteries, and barely 4 years out of another. The one that lasted 4 years sat the majority of its lifespan and gave up when I tried to press it into daily use. The 15+ year battery was used everyday from new and even managed to handle being in a car with no working voltage regulator. It was in a bad spot and the ground clamp would come off every time I did donuts and the voltage would spike to 20+VDC, but when it was hooked up would never go above 16VDC. It was an old clapped out Supra that I didn't care about. Suffice to say, Optima AGM batteries are the only ones I use now. I gave that battery away with that car, last I heard it's still in use. That's an exception though.

In terms of fleet maintenance, I replaced batteries every 3-5 years even if they still tested okay.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's looking more and more like we won't see it completely redesigned LEAF until 2020 or later.

This is based on the fact that Nissan and Renault plan to have a common platform for their respective EV's then. They are NOT going to do a total redesign on the LEAF for 2018 and 2019 only.

So, as we used to say in the motorcycle business, Bold New Graphics every year. They are really really going to shoot themselves in the foot if they don't come out with a 40 to 60 kWh battery option before 2020.

I predict what Carlos Ghosn is going to announce next month in Las Vegas will be autonomous driving for the LEAF and possibly a bigger battery, plus BNG.

 

[SageBrush]

if Nissan says 35% degradation is acceptable by the end of my warranty

Lucky for you, your use case did not depend on your understanding of the warranty. It behooves you to step off your soapbox, at least until you grasp the facts.

FYI: your warranty states that for the first 5 years/60k miles (whichever comes first, that degradation less than ~ 33% from day #1 of ownership is not covered and past that period any amount of degradation is not covered.

Tangent: I for one would be much happier with a pro-rated warranty.

 

[NavyCuda]

I think the only real chance the 30kWh can remain competitive is if they really drop their pants on the price, otherwise they need to have a 60kWh battery and come in lower than the bolt. Considering the age of the Leaf, the design is likely paid for by now.

 

[NavyCuda]

if Nissan says 35% degradation is acceptable by the end of my warranty

Lucky for you, your use case did not depend on your understanding of the warranty. It behooves you to step off your soapbox, at least until you grasp the facts.

FYI: your warranty states that for the first 5 years/60k miles (whichever comes first, that degradation less than ~ 33% from day #1 of ownership is not covered and past that period any amount of degradation is not covered.

Tangent: I for one would be much happier with a pro-rated warranty.

Luck had nothing to do with it, I researched the Leaf and the potential concerns before I bought it. It is my car, not a lease. After deciding I was satisfied with the parameters I pulled the trigger.

Also, you are incorrect. My battery warranty is 8yrs/160,000km. I might have posted 180,000km earlier in this thread, it's one or the other but I know for sure 8 years. I didn't commit the details to memory once I was satisfied with the fine print.

 

[SageBrush]

I don't understand why people only charge to 80%....

Because it is likely to be an important parameter of battery aging. Infrequent charging to 100% (perhaps once a month during snow season ??) is indeed worthwhile for cell balancing.

An analogy would be occasional use of friction breaks to prevent rotor rusting, but daily use of regen.

 

[SageBrush]

[if Nissan says 35% degradation is acceptable by the end of my warranty
Also, you are incorrect. My battery warranty is 8yrs/160,000km.

You still don't get it.

Nissan says that 33% degradation one day after you bought a brand new car is not warranted.